Cleric / Dwarven Defender

[legionetrangere]

Howdy, laddies.

My guy, Aurelius, is to become your average battlepriest 9(Cleric/DD). I'm planning to make it 25 lvls in Cleric, and 5 on DD. Given the fact that one must take at least 3 levels in a second class, before taking a level in the original one - is the following level progression possible?

1st to 10th: Cleric levels
11th to 14th: DD levels
15th to 19th: Cleric lvls
20th: DD
21th to 30th: Cleric

Why the DD at 20th? Because i want to stack up skill points and then at 20, spend it on Discipline, before i carry on on Concentration and Heal

If you have any tip/suggestion/feedback feel free to bring it to the table.

Anyways, my first post here, been enjoying Arelith so far, i'm sure it'll remain as such. I see fun coming my way! lol

Keep yer eyes sharp an' yer wits, sharper!

[Shadowy Reality]

Take 4 DD pre-epic for the 4th attack. If you're only taking 5 DD save that level for 29 or 30, so you can max discipline. You're losing 10 Discipline by taking it at 20.

[Wytchee]

Take 4 DD pre-epic for the 4th attack. If you're only taking 5 DD save that level for 29 or 30, so you can max discipline. You're losing 10 Discipline by taking it at 20.

No, no, no. Common misconception made with clerics is to take four full BAB levels pre-epic to get your fourth APR. While you can technically do this if you really want a fourth attack per round "full time," you'll only be gimping the burst power of your cleric.

It's better to have three APR as a cleric. Why?

When using Divine Power (the bread and butter of any battlecleric build), your BAB is raised to that of a fighter, meaning while under the effects of the spell you have four attacks per round. If you already have 4 APR (by having taken four full BAB classes pre epic), your AB suffers -5 each attack that round as normal. However, if you have 3 APR, you gain the fourth attack at full AB.

Example:

A cleric with four full BAB levels pre epic casts Divine Power and gains an AB of
+45/+40/+35/+30

A cleric with less than four full BAB levels pre epic casts Divine Power and gains an AB of
+45/+40/+35/+45

Add in haste and three of your five attacks are made at full AB, for
+45/+40/+35/+45/+45

So yeah, while you can go four full BAB classes for four APR "full time" you will be sacrificing your burst power by lowering the AB of your fourth APR by 15 while under the effects of Divine Power.

Take three levels of DD pre epic, then your fourth around level 25, and your last at level 30, taking care to max out discipline (and spot, if you have the skillpoints for it).

[Shadowy Reality]

You are entirely correct, totally forgot that was a thing.

[PleasantSolitude]

Isn't there a rule to always take three consecutive levels of the same class or doesn't that involve prestige classes?

Sorry if it's a noobish question.

[OutOfChwi]

Minimum class levels is 3, then after that you can take that class whenever you like. So in this case you would do 3 DD pre epic and 1 at 30 (or whenever you like) to max disc.

DD probably isnt the best with such a low level amount. It really needs heavy investment for DR bonuses. Id make the cookie cutter 23/4/3 cleric fighter rogue and just make it a dwarf. If your heart is set on DD definitely take Wytchees advice on divine power.

[Wytchee]

Minimum class levels is 3, then after that you can take that class whenever you like. So in this case you would do 3 DD pre epic and 1 at 30 (or whenever you like) to max disc.

DD probably isnt the best with such a low level amount. It really needs heavy investment for DR bonuses. Id make the cookie cutter 23/4/3 cleric fighter rogue and just make it a dwarf. If your heart is set on DD definitely take Wytchees advice on divine power.

5 DD levels nets you immunity to flanking (i.e. sneak attacks) while in combat. I'd still go fighter over DD, though, because you're not wrong about DD being one of those "all or nothing" classes.

[Freyason]

Also remember defensive stance is currently broken (acts like vanilla with limited number of uses)

[MurderedOutWindows]

There are arguments for both 15 and 16 BAB on a cheric. You laid out the 15 BAB argument pretty well. For me it comes down to, do I want to be an ultra monster when I cast Divine Power and slow as hell when I don't have it up or do I want to have significantly less full power in order to have a more playable character. Then you consider that very few Clerics on Arelith achieve anything near non-dispellable territory. A cleric with buffs up not including Divine Power is pretty tough, and I don't want to be completely ruined by a dispel so I prefer 16 BAB. But, hey, that's just me.

[Wytchee]

Battleclerics are a class centered around burst damage, not unlike paladins. You really don't get much out of a fourth attack per round at -15 AB. That fourth APR is going to miss the majority of the time in fights where it really matters (boss fights and PvP), even with Divine Power.

By going four full BAB levels pre-epic you are basically sacrificing your effectiveness in boss fights and PvP (where battleclerics really shine) to be able to wipe up trash mobs more quickly.

Not a good deal, imo.

[legionetrangere]

Thanks for all the replies, makes the welcome party welcomer.

To the points raised by you guys.

Also remember defensive stance is currently broken (acts like vanilla with limited number of uses)

The whole idea about taking 5 DD lvlvs was to be able to use it freely at every - single - encounter, -and- take the immune to flanking bonus.

Take 4 DD pre-epic for the 4th attack. If you're only taking 5 DD save that level for 29 or 30, so you can max discipline. You're losing 10 Discipline by taking it at 20.

Good idea, both you and Wytchee. But as this guy said

A cleric with buffs up not including Divine Power is pretty tough, and I don't want to be completely ruined by a dispel so I prefer 16 BAB. But, hey, that's just me.

I'm not a explosion type of guy. I rather have a good solid all-around guy, than to have one that depends on just one building brick to make a sturdy home.


Nonetheless, i made a test taking 4 Fighter lvls pre-epic, and then one at 30. This allowed me to take a few extra feats: Expertise (keeps you alive, i'm a noob), Lighting Reflex and Improved Critical.

One good thing about DD is that Will saving throw increases the same rate as a cleric's one. I could verify that as DD/Cleric, my guy had 29 will without any single item. While Fighter/Cleric had only 24 if i remember correctly.


It all bottlenecks to: Is Defensive Stance broken? If so, how broken?

[One Two Three Five]

I'm not a explosion type of guy. I rather have a good solid all-around guy, than to have one that depends on just one building brick to make a sturdy home.

As nicely as possible: Cleric is burst/"explosion" heavy. They do best when they have that wind-up time for their spells. There's not too much you can do, buildwise, to sort of correct that.

[OutOfChwi]

Its bugged atm, you dont get unlimted uses.

[legionetrangere]

I'm not a explosion type of guy. I rather have a good solid all-around guy, than to have one that depends on just one building brick to make a sturdy home.

As nicely as possible: Cleric is burst/"explosion" heavy. They do best when they have that wind-up time for their spells. There's not too much you can do, buildwise, to sort of correct that.

Thats good enough for me, but i'm okay without the last attack having 30 instead of 45 AB from DP. After all, i'm more a trash mob killer than a PvP one. lol

And it saddens me to hear that Defensive Stance is broken, it really misses a point having limited uses.

[Freyason]

It all bottlenecks to: Is Defensive Stance broken? If so, how broken?

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=14613&p=127868

[legionetrangere]

It all bottlenecks to: Is Defensive Stance broken? If so, how broken?

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=14613&p=127868

Is the DM team working on this? Or should i just go for Fighter?

[dallion43]

Defensive Stance issue was brought up by multiple people at multiple times over relatively long period of time. I assume that it is difficult code wise to fix the stance to become unlimited again since there was almost no official replies or promises to fix the unlimited portion in all of the complain treads.

I assume it will be reworked at some point to give more passive bonuses over more DD lvls making DD dip effectively non existent.
---------
It doesn't matter what your PC's end goal is, PvE or PvP, but tumble for a front line melee is a kinda a must, consider 23/4/3 cler/fighter/bard(if you have enough SPs for taunt) or 23/4/3 cler/fighter/rou.

It will make your life easier not to mention 15 umd dump availability.. -).

[legionetrangere]

Do you guys think the dev team will buff DD stats on the side to compensate for the limited defensive stance?

[Wytchee]

Do you guys think the dev team will buff DD stats on the side to compensate for the limited defensive stance?

People have to start understanding that the Dev team isn't some monolithic thing.

It's literally just a handful of itinerant coders who here and there throw in some lines when they feel like it. They're not being paid and there's no real gate to who can become a contributor.

Arelith developers develop what they feel like when they feel like it. Heck, I've largely stopped posting in 'suggestions' as I'm told the Development Team just chuckles about me in discord whenever I do (idk how to code but I have some good ideas, damn it!)

They've also got their hands full with Enhanced Edition stuff.

So no, don't expect a fix (let alone a buff) to DD any time soon.

[legionetrangere]

People have to start understanding that the Dev team isn't some monolithic thing.

Pardon me for not realizing this sooner, this way i would''ve avoided this most unmannered answer. But to the merit itself - what you've said is quite reasonable, guess they're not looking to DD anytime sooner, specially with EE next door.

[Maladus]

You could and probably should post about the DD in the Beamdog forums because they are a paid development team and are listening to the community. Hopefully things like this will get taken care of in the release of EE.

[redhawx]

People have to start understanding that the Dev team isn't some monolithic thing.

Pardon me for not realizing this sooner, this way i would''ve avoided this most unmannered answer. But to the merit itself - what you've said is quite reasonable, guess they're not looking to DD anytime sooner, specially with EE next door.

Cortex was looking into Dwarven-Defender but this was before his announced break.
I suspect you are quite spot on. That DD will problaby be looked into, but not inawhile.