Shadowdancer AC importance
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Shadowdancer AC importance
I guess my question is, in what situations would a shadowdancer need improved expertise, or even a shield for that matter? Would it strictly be for pvp situations?
I have yet to take expertise or weapon focus, so those are still up for changing.... Knockdown sounds more useful at this point than the others, but i'm not entirely sure.
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Re: Shadowdancer AC importance
if you're pre epic still get expertise if you can and use a shield.
epic dodge gets better with higher ac, so that's another reason to snag it.
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Re: Shadowdancer AC importance
Clerics are just socially acceptable warlocks.The devil does not need any more advocates
Re: Shadowdancer AC importance
Re: Shadowdancer AC importance
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Re: Shadowdancer AC importance
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Re: Shadowdancer AC importance
No, it's useful always.BattleDrake wrote:So, most of these arguments appear to be that it's really only useful in pvp situations?
Which is going to be a lot because summons bug a lot and so does guard. This is also an issue when enemies separate the two of you by squirming in and pulling you out of -guard range.BattleDrake wrote:Save for a rare instance of the shadow not guarding me, which i'd still have decent ac, epic dodge, and HiPs.
Well with a shield and expertise and short sword you can just turn off expertise if you don't need the ac. They arn't meant to be always on unless you're eating hits or guarding someone.BattleDrake wrote:I guess what problem i'm having, is the thought of all that ac, and nothing to back it up. I"ve had a 70+ ac character with 31ish ab after improved expertise, and it was a nightmare. Nothing like never hitting your target. I found myself rarely using expertise because of it. In pvp, i see myself not being hit, but not hitting either. A war of 20 rolls, and with a dex based character, my damage would lose that as well. Can anyone list a specific example of where it would prove useful?
Not to mention your shadow has crippling strike and does good damage with sneaks, so an enemy focusing a high AC you is eating sneaks and crip-strikes.
Either way High AC is good. And with expertise you can go high. So do it!
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Re: Shadowdancer AC importance
I was responding to the fact the only situations that were presented in regards to Shadowdancer AC being needed, were pvp related except for the one exception.BegoneThoth wrote:No, it's useful always.BattleDrake wrote:So, most of these arguments appear to be that it's really only useful in pvp situations?
Again, i'd have decent ac, epic dodge, and HiPs to offset these instances. I wouldn't call them common based on my own personal experience with the shadow and summons. But in the off chance they do, are these two feats really worth it when there are alternatives?Which is going to be a lot because summons bug a lot and so does guard. This is also an issue when enemies separate the two of you by squirming in and pulling you out of -guard range.BattleDrake wrote:Save for a rare instance of the shadow not guarding me, which i'd still have decent ac, epic dodge, and HiPs.
Shadow only does 1d6 sneak, so I wouldn't call that good damage. I understand HIgh AC is good, generally, but is it worthwhile for a Shadowdancer who has an essentially permanent guard tank. I'm failing to see a situation in which those feats would pay off vs say knockdown, or maybe even exotic wep foc for kukri/improved crit...Well with a shield and expertise and short sword you can just turn off expertise if you don't need the ac. They arn't meant to be always on unless you're eating hits or guarding someone.BattleDrake wrote:I guess what problem i'm having, is the thought of all that ac, and nothing to back it up. I"ve had a 70+ ac character with 31ish ab after improved expertise, and it was a nightmare. Nothing like never hitting your target. I found myself rarely using expertise because of it. In pvp, i see myself not being hit, but not hitting either. A war of 20 rolls, and with a dex based character, my damage would lose that as well. Can anyone list a specific example of where it would prove useful?
Not to mention your shadow has crippling strike and does good damage with sneaks, so an enemy focusing a high AC you is eating sneaks and crip-strikes.
Either way High AC is good. And with expertise you can go high. So do it!
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Re: Shadowdancer AC importance
Second, good ac is 60+, mobs on the server swing at around that which is why that's 'good' ac. Then you can imp expertise to 70 and not just die instantly to them. With no shield (divine or mundane) and no expertise I struggle to see how you're getting good ac.
Third I thought the shadow got your sneak attack, my bad, read it wrong, at least it gets crippling strike.
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Re: Shadowdancer AC importance
Because there's not enough feats, and not all melee builds are the same?BegoneThoth wrote:If you're melee I really don't know how you're in a situation where you're picking between expertise and improved critical. You need both badly.
Fully buffed, with shield and improved expertise is 77 AC I believe. Take away +8 from shield and 10 improved expertise you're looking at 59AC with epic dodge.(Having run every epic dungeon on the server, i'd say that's more than enough). I could always still carry a shield for 65-67 AC, it's the feats I'm most concerned with. I have characters that did fine with less, and they didn't have Shadows to guard them.Second, good ac is 60+, mobs on the server swing at around that which is why that's 'good' ac. Then you can imp expertise to 70 and not just die instantly to them. With no shield (divine or mundane) and no expertise I struggle to see how you're getting good ac.
If my character didn't have the Shadow, everything you said would apply, but he does. That's the whole reason for the build. Now, if someone with SD came along and said they have a similar build and they find themselves constantly needing to shield or expertise, i'm going to take their advice. Otherwise, I've got you saying AC GOOD, TAKE IT. Gonna need a bit more mate.
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Re: Shadowdancer AC importance
Regardless, if you're able to hit 70 or near 70 without any expertise feats, then I would absolutely suggest dropping them in favor of KD and Improved crit. If you can only drop one of the expertise feats and thus have to choose between KD and Improved crit... KD is probably the way to go.
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Re: Shadowdancer AC importance
14 Dex
5 armor
5 defl
5 Nat
1 boot Dodge
1 Dodge feat
1 mage armor
6 tumble
2 armor skin
5 bard
4 haste
10 improved expertise
8 shield
Edit: +4 Dodge shadow evade... So up to 81 actually
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Re: Shadowdancer AC importance
10 base
14 Dex
4 armor (3 penumbral vestment + 1 fighter bonus)
4 deflection (shield spell)
5 Nat (shadow shield)
1 boots
1 dodge
1 mage armor
6 tumble
2 armor skin
4 haste
4 shadow evade
6 tower shield
10 imp. expertise
That's 56, up to 72 with improved expertise and a shield. Given that, I would MAYBE drop improved expertise, but definitely keep expertise.
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Re: Shadowdancer AC importance
Hahaha.Baron Saturday wrote:Okay. Let's assume for a moment that your bard buddy is blackout drunk in a gutter and your cleric is sleeping off a crisis of faith in the nearest brothel.
Still feel like it's overkill, but I guess a relevel isn't out of the equation if I'm really not feeling it
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Re: Shadowdancer AC importance
I'm assuming from some of your responses that you don't expect/want to be involved in much PvP, and in PvE your Shadow is gonna be all sorts of tanky. Once you've got Epic Shadowlord it isn't gonna be going anywhere without somebody smacking/casting it to death, and that's not going to be easy. So as long as its guard of you doesn't bug out, you're fine.
But if it DOES somehow die, or -guard breaks, or an enemy gets super cranky and just ignores -guard (it happens!), you could find yourself in serious trouble.
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Re: Shadowdancer AC importance
But, guess I don't have to rely on ie for the entire fight. Just long enough to recover my shadow/escape/Ally rescue... I can see the benefit of that
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Re: Shadowdancer AC importance
Also, the shadow gets numpty sometimes and obstinately targets some faraway target, running from your side thus breaking the -guard continuously. I've no idea how to finesse the summon and Player Tool 1 feels unwieldy to me. Maybe I just don't have enough micro for this stupid game ;_;Baron Saturday wrote:But if it DOES somehow die, or -guard breaks, or an enemy gets super cranky and just ignores -guard (it happens!), you could find yourself in serious trouble.
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Re: Shadowdancer AC importance
PvP, definitely more of an issue. Let's hope you have some way of killing them, before they kill you
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Re: Shadowdancer AC importance
That was exactly the style of play I had imagined.Beneidalus wrote:My shadowdancer has 13 AC. Strength based. The shadow does all the tanking. In PvE, AC literally doesn't matter for the shadowdancer. On the rare occasion you let your shadow die, use HiPS, invis potion, or similar UMD devices, and just flee. Come back when your shadow is off cooldown.
PvP, definitely more of an issue. Let's hope you have some way of killing them, before they kill you
For PVP, if I did encounter it, I feel I would just hips spam... or utilize that set trap skill I invested in .
Still on the fence, but have a few levels until I have to decide. Will give me time to see how often I find myself wishing I was using a shield/expertise.
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