Shadowdancer AC importance

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BattleDrake
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Shadowdancer AC importance

Post by BattleDrake » Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:24 am

I've got a shadowdancer build that's just 8/5/17 ftr/rog/sd that's going for epic dodge. The original idea was to go dual shortswords to swap out to a shield when need be and to have both expertise feats (no knockdown, improved crit, toughness). I leveled up mostly using a quarterstaff for that extra ab, and never once used a shield or expertise all the way up to shadow summon, and now i'm beginning to wonder if a shield or expertise is going to be necessary.

I guess my question is, in what situations would a shadowdancer need improved expertise, or even a shield for that matter? Would it strictly be for pvp situations?

I have yet to take expertise or weapon focus, so those are still up for changing.... Knockdown sounds more useful at this point than the others, but i'm not entirely sure.

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BegoneThoth
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Re: Shadowdancer AC importance

Post by BegoneThoth » Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:29 am

for a melee person AC is your most important number.

if you're pre epic still get expertise if you can and use a shield.

epic dodge gets better with higher ac, so that's another reason to snag it.
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One Two Three Five
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Re: Shadowdancer AC importance

Post by One Two Three Five » Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:36 am

Given how shadowdancers work in PvE you should be fine (I think. Anyone played an sd and can comment?) but pvp will be an issue with low AC since your shadow's -guard doesn't effect players.
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Dreams
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Re: Shadowdancer AC importance

Post by Dreams » Fri Nov 10, 2017 6:01 am

You'll want a pretty decent AC (and CON) because the -guard function often just doesn't work when it should. It also intentionally doesn't work against PCs or the summoned creatures of NPCs.

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Lorkas
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Re: Shadowdancer AC importance

Post by Lorkas » Fri Nov 10, 2017 6:14 am

In PvP a low AC shadowdancer is basically gonna be dependent on confusing the other player, but it van only go so far. The instant they realize they're swinging at something with 70%+ concealment, or the instant you do anything your shadow can't do, like use a wand or scroll, tree game is up until you find a way to shuffle up with your shadow again.

BattleDrake
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Re: Shadowdancer AC importance

Post by BattleDrake » Fri Nov 10, 2017 6:32 am

So, most of these arguments appear to be that it's really only useful in pvp situations? Save for a rare instance of the shadow not guarding me, which i'd still have decent ac, epic dodge, and HiPs. I guess what problem i'm having, is the thought of all that ac, and nothing to back it up. I"ve had a 70+ ac character with 31ish ab after improved expertise, and it was a nightmare. Nothing like never hitting your target. I found myself rarely using expertise because of it. In pvp, i see myself not being hit, but not hitting either. A war of 20 rolls, and with a dex based character, my damage would lose that as well. Can anyone list a specific example of where it would prove useful?

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BegoneThoth
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Re: Shadowdancer AC importance

Post by BegoneThoth » Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:05 am

BattleDrake wrote:So, most of these arguments appear to be that it's really only useful in pvp situations?
No, it's useful always.

BattleDrake wrote:Save for a rare instance of the shadow not guarding me, which i'd still have decent ac, epic dodge, and HiPs.
Which is going to be a lot because summons bug a lot and so does guard. This is also an issue when enemies separate the two of you by squirming in and pulling you out of -guard range.
BattleDrake wrote:I guess what problem i'm having, is the thought of all that ac, and nothing to back it up. I"ve had a 70+ ac character with 31ish ab after improved expertise, and it was a nightmare. Nothing like never hitting your target. I found myself rarely using expertise because of it. In pvp, i see myself not being hit, but not hitting either. A war of 20 rolls, and with a dex based character, my damage would lose that as well. Can anyone list a specific example of where it would prove useful?
Well with a shield and expertise and short sword you can just turn off expertise if you don't need the ac. They arn't meant to be always on unless you're eating hits or guarding someone.

Not to mention your shadow has crippling strike and does good damage with sneaks, so an enemy focusing a high AC you is eating sneaks and crip-strikes.

Either way High AC is good. And with expertise you can go high. So do it!
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BattleDrake
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Re: Shadowdancer AC importance

Post by BattleDrake » Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:22 am

BegoneThoth wrote:
BattleDrake wrote:So, most of these arguments appear to be that it's really only useful in pvp situations?
No, it's useful always.
I was responding to the fact the only situations that were presented in regards to Shadowdancer AC being needed, were pvp related except for the one exception.
BattleDrake wrote:Save for a rare instance of the shadow not guarding me, which i'd still have decent ac, epic dodge, and HiPs.
Which is going to be a lot because summons bug a lot and so does guard. This is also an issue when enemies separate the two of you by squirming in and pulling you out of -guard range.
Again, i'd have decent ac, epic dodge, and HiPs to offset these instances. I wouldn't call them common based on my own personal experience with the shadow and summons. But in the off chance they do, are these two feats really worth it when there are alternatives?
BattleDrake wrote:I guess what problem i'm having, is the thought of all that ac, and nothing to back it up. I"ve had a 70+ ac character with 31ish ab after improved expertise, and it was a nightmare. Nothing like never hitting your target. I found myself rarely using expertise because of it. In pvp, i see myself not being hit, but not hitting either. A war of 20 rolls, and with a dex based character, my damage would lose that as well. Can anyone list a specific example of where it would prove useful?
Well with a shield and expertise and short sword you can just turn off expertise if you don't need the ac. They arn't meant to be always on unless you're eating hits or guarding someone.

Not to mention your shadow has crippling strike and does good damage with sneaks, so an enemy focusing a high AC you is eating sneaks and crip-strikes.

Either way High AC is good. And with expertise you can go high. So do it!
Shadow only does 1d6 sneak, so I wouldn't call that good damage. I understand HIgh AC is good, generally, but is it worthwhile for a Shadowdancer who has an essentially permanent guard tank. I'm failing to see a situation in which those feats would pay off vs say knockdown, or maybe even exotic wep foc for kukri/improved crit...

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BegoneThoth
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Re: Shadowdancer AC importance

Post by BegoneThoth » Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:12 pm

If you're melee I really don't know how you're in a situation where you're picking between expertise and improved critical. You need both badly.

Second, good ac is 60+, mobs on the server swing at around that which is why that's 'good' ac. Then you can imp expertise to 70 and not just die instantly to them. With no shield (divine or mundane) and no expertise I struggle to see how you're getting good ac.

Third I thought the shadow got your sneak attack, my bad, read it wrong, at least it gets crippling strike.
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BattleDrake
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Re: Shadowdancer AC importance

Post by BattleDrake » Sat Nov 11, 2017 12:35 am

BegoneThoth wrote:If you're melee I really don't know how you're in a situation where you're picking between expertise and improved critical. You need both badly.
Because there's not enough feats, and not all melee builds are the same?
Second, good ac is 60+, mobs on the server swing at around that which is why that's 'good' ac. Then you can imp expertise to 70 and not just die instantly to them. With no shield (divine or mundane) and no expertise I struggle to see how you're getting good ac.
Fully buffed, with shield and improved expertise is 77 AC I believe. Take away +8 from shield and 10 improved expertise you're looking at 59AC with epic dodge.(Having run every epic dungeon on the server, i'd say that's more than enough). I could always still carry a shield for 65-67 AC, it's the feats I'm most concerned with. I have characters that did fine with less, and they didn't have Shadows to guard them.

If my character didn't have the Shadow, everything you said would apply, but he does. That's the whole reason for the build. Now, if someone with SD came along and said they have a similar build and they find themselves constantly needing to shield or expertise, i'm going to take their advice. Otherwise, I've got you saying AC GOOD, TAKE IT. Gonna need a bit more mate.

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Aramis - "S'fine piece of art yer havin' there." (Shelved)
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Baron Saturday
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Re: Shadowdancer AC importance

Post by Baron Saturday » Sat Nov 11, 2017 12:53 am

I'd like to see the math for how you're getting your AC that high, because something isn't adding up for me.

Regardless, if you're able to hit 70 or near 70 without any expertise feats, then I would absolutely suggest dropping them in favor of KD and Improved crit. If you can only drop one of the expertise feats and thus have to choose between KD and Improved crit... KD is probably the way to go.
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BattleDrake
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Re: Shadowdancer AC importance

Post by BattleDrake » Sat Nov 11, 2017 1:19 am

10 base
14 Dex
5 armor
5 defl
5 Nat
1 boot Dodge
1 Dodge feat
1 mage armor
6 tumble
2 armor skin
5 bard
4 haste
10 improved expertise
8 shield

Edit: +4 Dodge shadow evade... So up to 81 actually

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Baron Saturday
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Re: Shadowdancer AC importance

Post by Baron Saturday » Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:52 am

Okay. Let's assume for a moment that your bard buddy is blackout drunk in a gutter and your cleric is sleeping off a crisis of faith in the nearest brothel. So.

10 base
14 Dex
4 armor (3 penumbral vestment + 1 fighter bonus)
4 deflection (shield spell)
5 Nat (shadow shield)
1 boots
1 dodge
1 mage armor
6 tumble
2 armor skin
4 haste
4 shadow evade
6 tower shield
10 imp. expertise

That's 56, up to 72 with improved expertise and a shield. Given that, I would MAYBE drop improved expertise, but definitely keep expertise.
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BattleDrake
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Re: Shadowdancer AC importance

Post by BattleDrake » Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:18 am

Baron Saturday wrote:Okay. Let's assume for a moment that your bard buddy is blackout drunk in a gutter and your cleric is sleeping off a crisis of faith in the nearest brothel.
Hahaha.

Still feel like it's overkill, but I guess a relevel isn't out of the equation if I'm really not feeling it

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Baron Saturday
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Re: Shadowdancer AC importance

Post by Baron Saturday » Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:54 am

I mean, it depends on how many "oh crap" moments you want to have.

I'm assuming from some of your responses that you don't expect/want to be involved in much PvP, and in PvE your Shadow is gonna be all sorts of tanky. Once you've got Epic Shadowlord it isn't gonna be going anywhere without somebody smacking/casting it to death, and that's not going to be easy. So as long as its guard of you doesn't bug out, you're fine.

But if it DOES somehow die, or -guard breaks, or an enemy gets super cranky and just ignores -guard (it happens!), you could find yourself in serious trouble.
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BattleDrake
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Re: Shadowdancer AC importance

Post by BattleDrake » Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:20 am

Ya, that's pretty much my thought on things. I definitely see the benefit of extra ac, especially in pvp, just worried I'll get into a 20 roll fight with my superior ac and still lose because my damage is going to suck, making me feel like I wasted feats.

But, guess I don't have to rely on ie for the entire fight. Just long enough to recover my shadow/escape/Ally rescue... I can see the benefit of that

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Opustus
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Re: Shadowdancer AC importance

Post by Opustus » Sat Nov 11, 2017 10:04 am

Baron Saturday wrote:But if it DOES somehow die, or -guard breaks, or an enemy gets super cranky and just ignores -guard (it happens!), you could find yourself in serious trouble.
Also, the shadow gets numpty sometimes and obstinately targets some faraway target, running from your side thus breaking the -guard continuously. I've no idea how to finesse the summon and Player Tool 1 feels unwieldy to me. Maybe I just don't have enough micro for this stupid game ;_;
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Beneidalus
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Re: Shadowdancer AC importance

Post by Beneidalus » Sat Nov 11, 2017 10:25 am

My shadowdancer has 13 AC. Strength based. The shadow does all the tanking. In PvE, AC literally doesn't matter for the shadowdancer. On the rare occasion you let your shadow die, use HiPS, invis potion, or similar UMD devices, and just flee. Come back when your shadow is off cooldown.

PvP, definitely more of an issue. Let's hope you have some way of killing them, before they kill you :roll:

BattleDrake
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Re: Shadowdancer AC importance

Post by BattleDrake » Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:16 pm

Beneidalus wrote:My shadowdancer has 13 AC. Strength based. The shadow does all the tanking. In PvE, AC literally doesn't matter for the shadowdancer. On the rare occasion you let your shadow die, use HiPS, invis potion, or similar UMD devices, and just flee. Come back when your shadow is off cooldown.

PvP, definitely more of an issue. Let's hope you have some way of killing them, before they kill you :roll:
That was exactly the style of play I had imagined.

For PVP, if I did encounter it, I feel I would just hips spam... or utilize that set trap skill I invested in ;).

Still on the fence, but have a few levels until I have to decide. Will give me time to see how often I find myself wishing I was using a shield/expertise.

Recent Characters:
Aramis - "S'fine piece of art yer havin' there." (Shelved)
Eradyn - Trying to make the world a better place. (Shelved)
[Redacted] - ? (?)
Skek - Happiness in Endless Industry. (Rolled)


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