Comparing summons... do my s...?

[Rexiczech]

Heya!

I just started thinking about building warlock or blackguard for a summon! Well, warlock kinda useless to me (but must be fun to play) so to BG this time.

Hell, how I was confused, that from arelith wiki and forum, I found out... If I give Epic feat, Fiendish summon, 16 lvls of BG (from possible 20), my summon will totally s... compared to elms, or gates... And well, its just a spell. If you epic feat it, well, Dragons totally own. How does this good blackguard comes to it, that he must PAY whole 16 lvls and epic feat, for such a weakling ? You may say that dragon knight want epic feat and 20+ of class lvl, but casters get heir benefits from CL, all of them (spell slots, DCs)... What have BGs ? +2d6 sneak attack ? I see every class so strong against BG, what he have ? Sneak attacks, but not hide as class-skill, saves and smites (DS & DM)as a paladin, but no holy sword, no bless, no disease immu, no spellcasting (Bulls strengh hell yeah!) and useless apply posion. Compared to everything, he just s... Well, not first 4 lvls! But then ? Your summons because you are prestige class are too weak to handle anything (compared to summon elm).

Well, for an RP purpose, its good, and having a pit fiend gen or ultraloth commander, nice... But seriously, who gives 18 lvls (+-2) for a summon that is compared to others so weak (Ye i Know some of you exists, and I am kinda new so I just counting, and thats the reason I wrote here.)

So, is there anything I miss ? Because even warlock must be better fun with summons then a BG. Why pick more than 4 lvls of BG, and if you want summons, do warlock isntead ?

[BegoneThoth]

Bg is a full bab class, where as warlock is not. So you get the full force of that plus a meaty summon. So it opens some build potential.

[Aftond]

As I recently played a 16 blackguard, I can say that the summon is /not/ garbage compared to other summons of the same caliber (not counting edk).

Pitfiend has a fear aura, imp invis and regen
Ultroloth has imp invis, a decent death spell and a stun cone.
Balor has fire reflect + str drain on getting hit (saveable)

You basically play one as an evil dark knight in fullplate, that sneak attack damage you get actually applies well in most situations. You get attacked? Tank it up with imp expertise and taunt the dude, allowing your evil summon to smash him. Then do the reverse when you stop getting focused.

This bulls strength spell you ridicule? It stacks with other sources of bulls strength.

[Rexiczech]

Bg is a full bab class, where as warlock is not. So you get the full force of that plus a meaty summon. So it opens some build potential.

Well, I dont think warlock is ment to be played as a frontier melee class with this:
Warlocks may use the following spells with unlimited castings and no cooldown.
And with losing his songs, and gaining eldich blast and so...
And I dont speak about that I hear warlock was seriously nerfed and is useless now (not in RP)

So, no... I dont see it meaty summon, seems pretty weak to me (upline), and any other full bab class is better to builds (if not speaking about 4 lvls BGs, thats awesome, but same is paly) I am speaking about 16+ lvls of BG.

And well, I am not comparing warlock/bg, I can imagine as much warlock builds as BGs (well, with only 4lvl of bg).

[Rexiczech]

As I recently played a 16 blackguard, I can say that the summon is /not/ garbage compared to other summons of the same caliber (not counting edk).

Pitfiend has a fear aura, imp invis and regen
Ultroloth has imp invis, a decent death spell and a stun cone.
Balor has fire reflect + str drain on getting hit (saveable)

You basically play one as an evil dark knight in fullplate, that sneak attack damage you get actually applies well in most situations. You get attacked? Tank it up with imp expertise and taunt the dude, allowing your evil summon to smash him. Then do the reverse when you stop getting focused.

This bulls strength spell you ridicule? It stacks with other sources of bulls strength.

Not counting EDK, but EDK too cost you epic feat and is much more better
Gate is a spell and you get same summon nearly, with a haste on it.

I was not ridiculing it, I know it is amazing, but thats one spell usefull But still capped at+12

And you basically wrote, yes, how summons works. Not only from BG. They tank, or do dmg in time you tank.

And yo ucompared what actually ? lvl 26 char summon with lower elms ? As actually tier 9 Air elm is much more tankyie and you get him at lvl 15? Or you mean black blade of disaster ? Immune to all dmg ? Even Dead mummy has immu on crits, 15DR, Fear aura and word of faith. (not so great stats tho) I dont even see possibility ty lvl this guy thanks to a summon like others...

And Ye, I am mostly interes in comparsion to EDK, as it both costs you epic feat and lots of lvls

[Aftond]

Gate lasts rounds. BG summons last infinitely.

You have to play a caster class to get EDK, so without counting bclerics you cant play a sword and board caster with EDK. EDK also lasts rounds, its nothing you grind with. It's a fairly short burst of incredible power, but thats it.

Comparing the Pitfiend to elementals or mummy dust undead is more reasonable, because their purpose is the same. In this, it does an equally good job considering you can tank for it since you are a melee class.

[Rexiczech]

Gate lasts rounds. BG summons last infinitely.

You have to play a caster class to get EDK, so without counting bclerics you cant play a sword and board caster with EDK. EDK also lasts rounds, its nothing you grind with. It's a fairly short burst of incredible power, but thats it.

Comparing the Pitfiend to elementals or mummy dust undead is more reasonable, because their purpose is the same. In this, it does an equally good job considering you can tank for it since you are a melee class.

Well, Gate and EDK is a short burst of incredible power for their lasting time. In meantime, you have elementals, from your 3d or what lvl which help you lvlup. With a BG you get your first summon around 10 char lvl (actually useless), and a decent one at a lvl 17 (if you are picking full bab pre-class). So, grinding is far more easier with elms, which Air elm is much better tankie elemental then bg summons could be. Well, I maybe think all are better with their DR.

So I dont see how it can be reasonable to compare it only to those, if they get bonuses from spell foci, what warlock summons too, but BGs not. Only by lvls o BG, which can be only 20.

But okey, lets use your method, and say I will tank. And my summon will attack something. Lets say I will buf his AB at about... +5... He can really do something in end-dungs ? With his 37AB buffed ? He wouldnt be able to hit even me! Or every 2nd class build on server.

On other hand, hasted dragon, 37AB(unbuffed-and as a cleric, or sorc you have pletny of buffs), TS, disjunctions, DR15/+6 and so on... well that summon can win 1/2 of PvP and boss fight in 20 rounds easily what I saw. And that you cant wear a sword ? You even mention B-clerics! And forgot spellswords.

You have to play caster class to get EDK is the same as You have to play bg class to get fiends, so without the counting of warlock.... You see it right ?

Well, elm summons tank for you if you are caster class, thats too the same. Maybe even better, becouse I doesnt have improved evasion(immunitities), DR, and concealment(regen) from BG lvls.

I really dont want to look mean or something, I am really just curious and digging in it. Its just I need to take 12 lvls from 4-16 for just one think, a summon ? And I wont talk about sneak attacks, as I am tanking as you said. Whatever another epic class (well, maybe 2 not) has a nice epic progress, or at least it gives something to them. BG has summon, and it is comparably weaker than a spells! Well, not in round lasts, but actually you need it time to time. I think best way is to create 30 lvl fighter now lol.

[Aftond]

Yup, I grinded high epics dungeons with only my fiend at times. EDK I won't compare because as I said, they have different uses. I could have compared them back when EDK lasted much longer than it does now, but with the change to duration, regular summons can't be compared to EDK in strength. Spellswords can't cast EDK. Battleclerics can do anything really.

I concede that casters have an easier time leveling when they get elementals, But once BG gets epic fiend, they are pretty much the same.

BG's have taunt to help their summon hit stuff. They aren't as bad as you think they are. Take this from a person with actual experience with the class IG and recent experience at that.

I won't respond any more now, I've made my point.

[FoxyPigeon]

BG is my favorite class and I've played a few of them who went the Epic Fiend route.

Now if you were implying that the summon was horrible pre buff? I could 100% agree, they were super useless by the time you got them, but now? The summons are incredibly useful and pack quite a punch, I very much like the class where it is. I can't explain any better than Aftond has.

[Baron Saturday]

Keep in mind as well that with BG, you've got 14 other levels to take classes that can strengthen your summon.

The Spell Focus: Conjuration feats DO make the Epic Fiend stronger, so a level 16 BG who has cross-classed to bard or another caster class could take SF & GSF Conjuration, meaning that your fiend actually starts with an AB of 39. 33 base + 2 Spell Focus + 3 Epic Caster Bonus + 1 Str from ECB.

[Rexiczech]

Keep in mind as well that with BG, you've got 14 other levels to take classes that can strengthen your summon.

The Spell Focus: Conjuration feats DO make the Epic Fiend stronger, so a level 16 BG who has cross-classed to bard or another caster class could take SF & GSF Conjuration, meaning that your fiend actually starts with an AB of 39. 33 base + 2 Spell Focus + 3 Epic Caster Bonus + 1 Str from ECB.

You sure with this ? I readed thah BG summons doesnt count in this.

[Rexiczech]

Yup, I grinded high epics dungeons with only my fiend at times. EDK I won't compare because as I said, they have different uses. I could have compared them back when EDK lasted much longer than it does now, but with the change to duration, regular summons can't be compared to EDK in strength. Spellswords can't cast EDK. Battleclerics can do anything really.

I concede that casters have an easier time leveling when they get elementals, But once BG gets epic fiend, they are pretty much the same.

BG's have taunt to help their summon hit stuff. They aren't as bad as you think they are. Take this from a person with actual experience with the class IG and recent experience at that.

I won't respond any more now, I've made my point.

Well, thanks. I cant write anything more, as your hints proved usefull and to the point.

[Rexiczech]

BG is my favorite class and I've played a few of them who went the Epic Fiend route.

Now if you were implying that the summon was horrible pre buff? I could 100% agree, they were super useless by the time you got them, but now? The summons are incredibly useful and pack quite a punch, I very much like the class where it is. I can't explain any better than Aftond has.

I actually dont undestand you Are we talking about the same think ?

"Now if you were implying that the summon was horrible pre buff? I could 100% agree, they were super useless by the time you got them, but now? The summons are incredibly useful" pre buff like before is buffed ? Dont you talk about update ?

[Xuuldar]

what he have ? Sneak attacks, but not hide as class-skill

And I wont talk about sneak attacks, as I am tanking as you said.

I think you are missing a key mechanic, You don't have to hide or sneak to get sneak attacks. You get sneak attacks if the mob is flat footed, it cannot see you, OR it is in combat with someone else. For a BG that someone else is the summon.

A warlock/Wizard/non-battle cleric relies on the summon for tanking and/or damage, the BG uses the summon as a supplement as they are a full melee class on their own and use the summons for extra damage and to enable their sneak attacks.

[Rexiczech]

what he have ? Sneak attacks, but not hide as class-skill

And I wont talk about sneak attacks, as I am tanking as you said.

I think you are missing a key mechanic, You don't have to hide or sneak to get sneak attacks. You get sneak attacks if the mob is flat footed, it cannot see you, OR it is in combat with someone else. For a BG that someone else is the summon.

A warlock/Wizard/non-battle cleric relies on the summon for tanking and/or damage, the BG uses the summon as a supplement as they are a full melee class on their own and use the summons for extra damage and to enable their sneak attacks.

BG gets sneak attacks, and as I will be tanking, I wont do sneak attk dmg. I got the point I dont know anything about summons sneak attack tho.

[Rexiczech]

Keep in mind as well that with BG, you've got 14 other levels to take classes that can strengthen your summon.

The Spell Focus: Conjuration feats DO make the Epic Fiend stronger, so a level 16 BG who has cross-classed to bard or another caster class could take SF & GSF Conjuration, meaning that your fiend actually starts with an AB of 39. 33 base + 2 Spell Focus + 3 Epic Caster Bonus + 1 Str from ECB.

You sure with this ? I readed thah BG summons doesnt count in this.

Sorry! My wrong, it was repaired and now applies. My mystake, I didnt noticed another 2 pages.

[rookie]

what he have ? Sneak attacks, but not hide as class-skill

And I wont talk about sneak attacks, as I am tanking as you said.

I think you are missing a key mechanic, You don't have to hide or sneak to get sneak attacks. You get sneak attacks if the mob is flat footed, it cannot see you, OR it is in combat with someone else. For a BG that someone else is the summon.

A warlock/Wizard/non-battle cleric relies on the summon for tanking and/or damage, the BG uses the summon as a supplement as they are a full melee class on their own and use the summons for extra damage and to enable their sneak attacks.

BG gets sneak attacks, and as I will be tanking, I wont do sneak attk dmg. I got the point I dont know anything about summons sneak attack tho.

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Sneak_attack

"Whenever the character makes a successful attack against an opponent who is flat-footed, cannot see them, or who is in combat with someone else"

Your summon is that "someone else" so you get sneak attacks when both you and your summon are meleeing a mob.

I'm not sure if we're having a language barrier or not here, I tried rewording it slightly from what the above poster said to hopefully clarify things.

[-XXX-]

You can also trigger sneak attacks by striking a target that's on the ground. Use knockdown for example.

[Rexiczech]

Well, I got it really. So ye, when my summon will tank, I will have sneak attack, or knockdawned and so... But as I am melee with much better AC, and I i will be tanking, with taunt and so on, I Wont trigger. But good point with knockdawn, forgot about it. Thanks all, I maked a decision.

Actually sacrificing blind fight and knockadown on my own, I can put Conjuratin foci and Epic con... So, actually summon will get like 10 higher AB then me (because of improved expertise) and all have blind fight and knockdawn. So now it counts. Thanks once again.

[rookie]

It doesn't matter who the mob is focusing on, you will get sneak attack regardless. You may not get it in a particularly flurry as your summon hasn't engaged the target yet etc but who the mob is choosing to swing at has nothing to do with sneak attack.

[Xuuldar]

You, the BG get sneak attack. You will get your sneak attack damage against any mob that has something else also hitting it whether that be your summon, someone else's summon, or another player. So if you and anything/anyone else are hitting the same mob, no matter who is tanking the mob, you will get your sneak attack damage each round against that mob.

[gilescorey]

Actually sacrificing blind fight and knockadown on my own

do not do this

[Rexiczech]

No you wont. If mob attacks you, you wont get sneack attack regardless how many others attacking it(others yes but you dont). If its flatfooded(knocked down, paralyzed), all gets. If mob change the target (attck of opportunity, disemgage, circle kick or just change target) you trigger sneak attack. But if its momentarily in combat with you, you dont trigger sneak.

[Rexiczech]

Actually sacrificing blind fight and knockadown on my own

do not do this

Heh, why? With 35AB i wont hit anything nor knockdown anything. Or should I sacrifice still/extended spell on bard? Or lingering song with only 10 lvls of bard? Its I have to choose sacrificing 2 feats for spell foci. And only one i can is blindf/stillspell/knockdown/lingering song

[Rexiczech]

Maybe blind fight switch for lingering... But lingering or extended/stilled spells are buffs for my monstrosity!!!
Or perhps +2 ac, ab isnt worth sacrificing those feats?