Optimal Vanilla Sorcerer (Human)

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High Primate
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Optimal Vanilla Sorcerer (Human)

Post by High Primate » Tue Oct 31, 2017 2:01 am

What is the ideal feat list on a 27 Sorcerer/3 Bard build? Specifically, I want to make sure I don't screw up my epic feat selection. Not interested in playing a True Flamer.
Some builds I've worked on (not recommended):
Charisma Battlecleric
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Re: Optimal Vanilla Sorcerer (Human)

Post by Wytchee » Tue Oct 31, 2017 2:11 am

High Primate wrote:What is the ideal feat list on a 27 Sorcerer/3 Bard build? Specifically, I want to make sure I don't screw up my epic feat selection. Not interested in playing a True Flamer.
Human. Try to get at least two metamagic feats: extend and maximize or empower. Ideally you would have extend, maximize and empower.

We're speaking ideal here, so:
- ESF: Evocation
- ESF: Conjuration
- ESF: Abjuration
- Maximize/Empower/Extend
- Hellball/Dragon Knight/Greater Ruin
- Epic Skill Focus: Discipline

You'll likely not have the feats to spare for all of these, however. So pick and choose.
Current character: Abigail Duskwood

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Re: Optimal Vanilla Sorcerer (Human)

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Tue Oct 31, 2017 3:42 pm

Rule of thumb for sorcerers is typically to pick two schools for focuses, and then grab your metamagic/epic spells/other at your choosing. Going beyond two spell schools is when you start feeling feat-starved.
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-XXX-
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Re: Optimal Vanilla Sorcerer (Human)

Post by -XXX- » Tue Oct 31, 2017 5:04 pm

With the removal of the weave master path, I do not think that there is such thing as an optimal sorcerer for the time being.

If you want optimal, go wizard wild mage IMO.

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Re: Optimal Vanilla Sorcerer (Human)

Post by Cortex » Tue Oct 31, 2017 5:32 pm

-XXX- wrote:With the removal of the weave master path, I do not think that there is such thing as an optimal sorcerer for the time being.

If you want optimal, go wizard wild mage IMO.

this is objectively wrong
but i wont derail the post on a tirade on why

Vanilla Sorc 27 Bard 3

1 SF/GSF Conj
3 SF Evo
6 GSF Evo
9 Extend
12 SF Abj
15 Maximize/Empower
18 GFS Abj
21 GFS Evo
23 GRuin
24 EDK
25 bard dump
26 bard dump
27 bard dump ESF Disc
29 ESF Conj
30 HBall

On epic abjuration: I don't think -ward is really worth having as a sorcerer when they've so few feats to pick from. With 27+GFS you already have safety from IGMS and powerful dispels as well.
:)

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Re: Optimal Vanilla Sorcerer (Human)

Post by Peppermint » Tue Oct 31, 2017 5:39 pm

Wizard vs. Sorcerer is one of those rare kinds of litmus tests.

Sorcerers are the absolute king of spell duels, since spontaneity is huge. Spontaneous spells means infinitely better counterspelling, better usage of breaches (and/or flame arrows) and mantles. For bonus points, you'll never be caught without whichever spell you need for any given situation.

(But mostly, it's about fighting other casters.)

Wizards and Sorcerers are both very good on Arelith, though the latter tends to excel as much only at the highest levels of play. Wizards can work for anyone.
Last edited by Peppermint on Tue Oct 31, 2017 5:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Optimal Vanilla Sorcerer (Human)

Post by Hunter548 » Tue Oct 31, 2017 5:39 pm

You also can drop ESF conj for empower, depending on hoe much utility you want to provide and how often you'll have someone to -yoink into a fight. Empower gives you ~25 IGMSs which is very solid.
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Re: Optimal Vanilla Sorcerer (Human)

Post by dallion43 » Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:40 pm

Sorcerer is first about the sinergy of the high charisma with other classes, it opens many role paths for the said sorcerer.
Regarding feats, it is more about how your plan to spend 80% of your time as an epic sorserer, solo pve, group, solo pvp, group, etc, etc.
Pick your feats accoring to the end *goal/goals* of the PC, it always helps to not regretting feats etc selection when you reach high epics.

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Re: Optimal Vanilla Sorcerer (Human)

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:05 pm

If you don't care about UMD/Tumble, go paladin/BG dip for discipline and crazy saves, better armor/weapon proficiency.
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Re: Optimal Vanilla Sorcerer (Human)

Post by Astral » Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:04 pm

Disclaimer: 27 sorc 3 monk is the optimal imo. With feat progression like Cortex's build.


Sorcadin: 26 sorc 4 pally.

17 sorc, 3 paladin pre-epic. Feats: gfs aburation+evocation, extend + maximize spell, power attack + divine shield.
4th pally at lvl 29, epic feats: esf evocation + abjuration, epic mage armor, greater ruin, hellball, epic skill focus discipline. I guess in current meta, maybe I'd replace ESF abjuration with EDk.
Currently playing: Seth Xylo

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Re: Optimal Vanilla Sorcerer (Human)

Post by Peppermint » Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:51 pm

No, don't go monk. Giving up UMD is not worth ~1 situational AC and evasion.

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Re: Optimal Vanilla Sorcerer (Human)

Post by Improv » Sat Nov 04, 2017 5:51 pm

Sorc/Paladin has a huge disadvantage in that you actually have to act like a Paladin. That's not a very maleable dip class. If that is fine for your concept then great but you'll be taking on a lot of burden and obligation RP wise.

If I didn't want to play a goody-goody, totally devoted to their deity 110% Sorcerer I'd stick with Bard. It's still plenty powerful.

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Re: Optimal Vanilla Sorcerer (Human)

Post by BegoneThoth » Sat Nov 04, 2017 6:55 pm

I don't know how "paladiny" you need to act with only four levels of thirty.

Is there an official word on this?
\

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Re: Optimal Vanilla Sorcerer (Human)

Post by dallion43 » Sat Nov 04, 2017 7:42 pm

23sorc/3 pal/3 rou, and a few roads to build one.

Optimal build usually means versatile that can stand his ground vs more builds then the other build that good vs specific concepts.
I always though that the bigger RP restrictions of the sorc/pal are due to LG more then the 3 Pal lvls.

All the above is IMHO obviously.

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Re: Optimal Vanilla Sorcerer (Human)

Post by Wytchee » Sat Nov 04, 2017 7:52 pm

BegoneThoth wrote:I don't know how "paladiny" you need to act with only four levels of thirty.

Is there an official word on this?
A character with 4 levels of paladin is no less a divine champion than a character with 30 levels of paladin.

Roleplay what is on your character sheet.

*A sour glance at druid-monks*
Current character: Abigail Duskwood

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Re: Optimal Vanilla Sorcerer (Human)

Post by Improv » Sat Nov 04, 2017 8:55 pm

I'm sure people can and do get away with ignoring the paladin levels on their Sorc/Pal character sheet and I doubt many DMs want the headache of arguing with players over it so technically, you can probably get away with just being lawful-ish and good-ish and play the way you want.

But the class itself is the most rigidly defined in the game and should require a level of devotion to their deity and cause beyond casual worship even with a 3 level dip. I'd be really surprised and a bit disappointed if the official ruling is it's okay to behave otherwise...

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Re: Optimal Vanilla Sorcerer (Human)

Post by Wytchee » Sat Nov 04, 2017 9:00 pm

Improv wrote:I'm sure people can and do get away with ignoring the paladin levels on their Sorc/Pal character sheet and I doubt many DMs want the headache of arguing with players over it so technically, you can probably get away with just being lawful-ish and good-ish and play the way you want.

But the class itself is the most rigidly defined in the game and should require a level of devotion to their deity and cause beyond casual worship even with a 3 level dip. I'd be really surprised and a bit disappointed if the official ruling is it's okay to behave otherwise...
How you go about doing it is up to you, but if you take paladin levels on your sorcerer you're expected to roleplay a sorcerer-paladin. Not a Lawful Good sorcerer. A sorcerer-paladin.

Other, less-defined classes can get away with a bit of slack, like a wizard who dips bard. But like you said, paladin is a very strictly-defined class.

Taking a paladin dip for the mechanical benefits then neglecting the fact that your character is a paladin is just pure cheese. Roleplay what's on your character sheet.
Current character: Abigail Duskwood

Lurch
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Re: Optimal Vanilla Sorcerer (Human)

Post by Lurch » Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:03 am

Wrong forum, but it could be argued that restriction breeds creativity and that it's actually easier to play a character like a paladin with it's own limitations. Instead of wondering how your character should react to every new situation, you should have a strong bearing from the outset about what he/she cares and doesn't care about. Being a sorcerer as well would probably give a spin on the traditional paladin archetype to keep things fresh.

At least in my experience, from the other end of the spectrum, playing apathetic neutral characters that really don't have strong convictions one way or another is far more challenging if you want to be interesting, since most stories need some form of inner conflict to function.

On a related note, playing utterly amoral, irredeemably selfish evil characters is pretty easy, one only needs to pose the question "What's in it for me?" and decide purely based on that. It does get a bit repetitive for me though. I think the best case is playing a sociopathic hero amongst good aligned characters, slaying evil (not like you care either way) and learning to deal with their "eccentric notions of right and wrong" because one finds them fun or useful company.

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Re: Optimal Vanilla Sorcerer (Human)

Post by High Primate » Sun Nov 05, 2017 1:58 pm

Cortex wrote:
-XXX- wrote:With the removal of the weave master path, I do not think that there is such thing as an optimal sorcerer for the time being.

If you want optimal, go wizard wild mage IMO.

this is objectively wrong
but i wont derail the post on a tirade on why

Vanilla Sorc 27 Bard 3

1 SF/GSF Conj
3 SF Evo
6 GSF Evo
9 Extend
12 SF Abj
15 Maximize/Empower
18 GFS Abj
21 GFS Evo
23 GRuin
24 EDK
25 bard dump
26 bard dump
27 bard dump ESF Disc
29 ESF Conj
30 HBall

On epic abjuration: I don't think -ward is really worth having as a sorcerer when they've so few feats to pick from. With 27+GFS you already have safety from IGMS and powerful dispels as well.
Thanks! Also, the title of this post doesn't say "Optimal Wizard".
Some builds I've worked on (not recommended):
Charisma Battlecleric
"E-Dodge Brycer"

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Re: Optimal Vanilla Sorcerer (Human)

Post by Lurch » Sun Nov 05, 2017 2:42 pm

what about silent spell feat vs. anybody using silence and creeping up to you?

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Re: Optimal Vanilla Sorcerer (Human)

Post by Astral » Sun Nov 05, 2017 5:20 pm

Lurch wrote:what about silent spell feat vs. anybody using silence and creeping up to you?
Cast lesser dispel (which has no verbal component to begin with) on the ground.
Currently playing: Seth Xylo

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Re: Optimal Vanilla Sorcerer (Human)

Post by Wytchee » Sun Nov 05, 2017 5:50 pm

If you can fit in silent or still spell, that's one extra level of IGMS.

Sixth (Innate) + Seventh (Still/Silent) + Eighth (Empower) + Ninth (Maximize)

That's like 26-30 IGMS's depending on how much charisma you have.
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Re: Optimal Vanilla Sorcerer (Human)

Post by Lurch » Sun Nov 05, 2017 6:19 pm

Astral wrote:Cast lesser dispel (which has no verbal component to begin with) on the ground.
Wait, that works? Silence effect cast by lvl 14 or higher is undispellable by lesser dispel, is it not?

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Re: Optimal Vanilla Sorcerer (Human)

Post by Astral » Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:03 pm

Lurch wrote:
Astral wrote:Cast lesser dispel (which has no verbal component to begin with) on the ground.
Wait, that works? Silence effect cast by lvl 14 or higher is undispellable by lesser dispel, is it not?
Its dispellable. I'm not really sure how it works but the rules change when the subject of the dispel is the ground and not a target. For example, a lvl 20 caster can cast silence and then simply use a lesser dispel(3) wand on the ground or cast a lesser dispel(20) without a wand, they will only remove the silence effect.
Currently playing: Seth Xylo

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Re: Optimal Vanilla Sorcerer (Human)

Post by rookie » Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:16 pm

Astral wrote:
Lurch wrote:
Astral wrote:Cast lesser dispel (which has no verbal component to begin with) on the ground.
Wait, that works? Silence effect cast by lvl 14 or higher is undispellable by lesser dispel, is it not?
Its dispellable. I'm not really sure how it works but the rules change when the subject of the dispel is the ground and not a target. For example, a lvl 20 caster can cast silence and then simply use a lesser dispel(3) wand on the ground or cast a lesser dispel(20) without a wand, they will only remove the silence effect.

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Dispel

Look at the bottom under Area of effect dispelling for the mechanics. Important note is the creator of the effect is always successful in removing it while others make a check.

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