Strength Shadowdancer help please
Strength Shadowdancer help please
Hi,
I'm trying to get this character started but I have no idea about the stats / class spread / feats to take for it. I tried searching for shadow dancer or shadowdancer on this board but couldn't really find anything.
If someone could throw in a good detailed build with a class spread similar to 6 fighter 7 rogue 17 sd or any other decent suggestion, that would be appreciated.
I'm trying to get this character started but I have no idea about the stats / class spread / feats to take for it. I tried searching for shadow dancer or shadowdancer on this board but couldn't really find anything.
If someone could throw in a good detailed build with a class spread similar to 6 fighter 7 rogue 17 sd or any other decent suggestion, that would be appreciated.
Re: Strength Shadowdancer help please
A proper build really depends on what you're aiming to do with the character, or rather what you wish the character to be able to do.
Say, if you're interested in a sneak attacker that can do damage even outside it's core focus (being a strength oriented build), using the classes you outlined, then I would suggest something like rogue 11 / fighter 6 / shadowdancer 13. This would net you 6d6 sneak attack, crippling strike, epic weapon specialization, epic dodge (though only if you manage to get 25 dexterity on top of having high strength, a tall order) and epic shadowlord summon that grants another 6d6 sneak attack on top.
Pre-epic you would go rogue 8 / shadowdancer 8 / fighter 4 to get 16 BAB for four main-hand attacks and choose whether to invest in two weapons or not (this would cost 3 feats), to synergize with sneak attack. You'll want blind-fight, weapon focus, weapon specialization and improved critical nonetheless. Dodge and mobility are required for shadowdancer. Quarterstaff gives a bonus to hit for being two-handed and is also a dual-wielding weapon, courtesy of Arelith changes, so it might be your best bet.
Choose whether you want 13+ intelligence or not, as any less limits you from taking staple combat feats like expertise or improved knockdown. If you don't get expertise then I would recommend at least investing in parry for defense. Active combat feats like called shot, knockdown and disarm are actually pretty good for you since you get to lower enemy strength and therefore discipline scores with crippling strikes, making them more effective. Problem is, you only get 1 more feat on top of the aforementioned ones, unless you're human, which in turn makes your stat spread worse, assuming you want to put most points in strength & dexterity with some left over for constitution and intelligence.
Honestly though, given how attack bonus and armor class are much more important for a sneak attacker who already has the damage covered, I don't see a strength focused build really competing with a weapon finesse quarterstaff wielding dexterity oriented one, especially as the latter can take epic dodge with no problems, unlike the former. The potential higher damage output gives little comfort when you actually hit less often with said damage and get hit way more often, as both AC and parry skill favor a dexterity approach.
Say, if you're interested in a sneak attacker that can do damage even outside it's core focus (being a strength oriented build), using the classes you outlined, then I would suggest something like rogue 11 / fighter 6 / shadowdancer 13. This would net you 6d6 sneak attack, crippling strike, epic weapon specialization, epic dodge (though only if you manage to get 25 dexterity on top of having high strength, a tall order) and epic shadowlord summon that grants another 6d6 sneak attack on top.
Pre-epic you would go rogue 8 / shadowdancer 8 / fighter 4 to get 16 BAB for four main-hand attacks and choose whether to invest in two weapons or not (this would cost 3 feats), to synergize with sneak attack. You'll want blind-fight, weapon focus, weapon specialization and improved critical nonetheless. Dodge and mobility are required for shadowdancer. Quarterstaff gives a bonus to hit for being two-handed and is also a dual-wielding weapon, courtesy of Arelith changes, so it might be your best bet.
Choose whether you want 13+ intelligence or not, as any less limits you from taking staple combat feats like expertise or improved knockdown. If you don't get expertise then I would recommend at least investing in parry for defense. Active combat feats like called shot, knockdown and disarm are actually pretty good for you since you get to lower enemy strength and therefore discipline scores with crippling strikes, making them more effective. Problem is, you only get 1 more feat on top of the aforementioned ones, unless you're human, which in turn makes your stat spread worse, assuming you want to put most points in strength & dexterity with some left over for constitution and intelligence.
Honestly though, given how attack bonus and armor class are much more important for a sneak attacker who already has the damage covered, I don't see a strength focused build really competing with a weapon finesse quarterstaff wielding dexterity oriented one, especially as the latter can take epic dodge with no problems, unlike the former. The potential higher damage output gives little comfort when you actually hit less often with said damage and get hit way more often, as both AC and parry skill favor a dexterity approach.
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Re: Strength Shadowdancer help please
So I tried putting together a strength-based Fighter 10/Rogue 3/SD 17 build with a two-bladed sword. AB is...okay at 43, but AC is frankly awful: 35 base, buffable to ~49. Improved Expertise will get that up to 59, which is decent, but at the cost of all of your offensive capability.
So if you want to dual-wield, I'd advise against the strength build!
If you went a more traditional route, say with a scimitar/tower shield, then things improve drastically: Pre-buff AC jumps to 42. Long-term buffs get that to 48, short-term get it up to 56, and you can pull out all the stops with improved expertise to hit 66. You free up 3 pre-epic feats.
I went with 17 SD over 13 for a few reason: Extra epic feat at 16, considerably better shadow evade (+4 AC, 12/+4 DR, 20% concealment, lasts 51 rounds/5 minutes), and a nicely tanky shadow (77% concealment, 9/+6 DR, 9 regeneration).
VERY IMPORTANT: If you follow the build below, EVERY SINGLE SKILL POINT that you get during your three rogue levels has to be invested into getting 10 Hide, 10 Use Magic Device, 8 Move Silently, and 5 Tumble.
Shadowbruiser
HUMAN Fighter 10/Rogue 3/Shadowdancer 17
STR 17+2 gift
DEX 13
CON 12+2 gift
INT 14
WIS 8
CHA 10
1: F(1) - Dodge, Weapon Focus, Luck of Heroes
2: F(2) - Expertise
3: F(3) - Knockdown
4: F(4) - Weapon Specialization, { + STR }
5: R(1)
6: R(2) - Mobility
7: R(3)
8: SD(1) - { + STR }
9: SD(2) - Blind Fight
10: SD(3)
11: SD(4)
12: SD(5) - Improved Critical, { + STR }
13: SD(6)
14: SD(7)
15: SD(8) - Improved Knockdown
16: SD(9) - { + STR }
17: F(5)
18: F(6) - Iron Will, Improved Expertise
19: F(7)
20: F(8) - Free Feat, { + STR }
21: SD(10) - Epic Weapon Focus
22: SD(11)
23: SD(12)
24: SD(13) - Armor Skin, Epic Shadowlord, { + STR }
25: SD(14)
26: F(9)
27: F(10) - Epic Will, Epic Weapon Specialization
28: SD(15) - { + STR }
29: SD(16) - Epic Skill Focus: Discipline
30: SD(17) - Epic Prowess
HP: 314 (~494 w/ equipment & buffs))
AC: 42 (48 long, 56 long+short, 66 long+short+IEX)
AB: 42
SAVES (F/R/W): 24/19/17 (+3 v Spells)
SKILLS
Tumble: 30
Discipline: 30
UMD: 10
Hide: 10
Move Silently: 8
Concentration: 33
Heal: 33
Spellcraft (CC): 15
(67 extra skill points)
Critiques and improvements to this build are of course welcome. I haven't exactly been over it with a fine-toothed comb! This is intended as a sword-and-board build, though if people are interested I'll post the double-weapon build as well.
So if you want to dual-wield, I'd advise against the strength build!
If you went a more traditional route, say with a scimitar/tower shield, then things improve drastically: Pre-buff AC jumps to 42. Long-term buffs get that to 48, short-term get it up to 56, and you can pull out all the stops with improved expertise to hit 66. You free up 3 pre-epic feats.
I went with 17 SD over 13 for a few reason: Extra epic feat at 16, considerably better shadow evade (+4 AC, 12/+4 DR, 20% concealment, lasts 51 rounds/5 minutes), and a nicely tanky shadow (77% concealment, 9/+6 DR, 9 regeneration).
VERY IMPORTANT: If you follow the build below, EVERY SINGLE SKILL POINT that you get during your three rogue levels has to be invested into getting 10 Hide, 10 Use Magic Device, 8 Move Silently, and 5 Tumble.
Shadowbruiser
HUMAN Fighter 10/Rogue 3/Shadowdancer 17
STR 17+2 gift
DEX 13
CON 12+2 gift
INT 14
WIS 8
CHA 10
1: F(1) - Dodge, Weapon Focus, Luck of Heroes
2: F(2) - Expertise
3: F(3) - Knockdown
4: F(4) - Weapon Specialization, { + STR }
5: R(1)
6: R(2) - Mobility
7: R(3)
8: SD(1) - { + STR }
9: SD(2) - Blind Fight
10: SD(3)
11: SD(4)
12: SD(5) - Improved Critical, { + STR }
13: SD(6)
14: SD(7)
15: SD(8) - Improved Knockdown
16: SD(9) - { + STR }
17: F(5)
18: F(6) - Iron Will, Improved Expertise
19: F(7)
20: F(8) - Free Feat, { + STR }
21: SD(10) - Epic Weapon Focus
22: SD(11)
23: SD(12)
24: SD(13) - Armor Skin, Epic Shadowlord, { + STR }
25: SD(14)
26: F(9)
27: F(10) - Epic Will, Epic Weapon Specialization
28: SD(15) - { + STR }
29: SD(16) - Epic Skill Focus: Discipline
30: SD(17) - Epic Prowess
HP: 314 (~494 w/ equipment & buffs))
AC: 42 (48 long, 56 long+short, 66 long+short+IEX)
AB: 42
SAVES (F/R/W): 24/19/17 (+3 v Spells)
SKILLS
Tumble: 30
Discipline: 30
UMD: 10
Hide: 10
Move Silently: 8
Concentration: 33
Heal: 33
Spellcraft (CC): 15
(67 extra skill points)
Critiques and improvements to this build are of course welcome. I haven't exactly been over it with a fine-toothed comb! This is intended as a sword-and-board build, though if people are interested I'll post the double-weapon build as well.
Last edited by Baron Saturday on Sun Oct 29, 2017 8:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Rolled: Helene d'Arque, Sara Lyonall
Shelved: Kels Vetian, Cin ys'Andalis, Saul Haidt
Playing: Oshe Jordain
Shelved: Kels Vetian, Cin ys'Andalis, Saul Haidt
Playing: Oshe Jordain
Re: Strength Shadowdancer help please
STR SDs often dump AC because they have a somewhat permanent -guard. It kinda works in PvM, though in PvP I suspect they'd be relying on the confusion generated by an epic shadowlord looking exactly like the PC themselves.
Re: Strength Shadowdancer help please
I don't get the point of making a shadowdancer with low hide and move silent.. isn't HIPS reason number one to take the class? The shadow is great but if you want to be fully armored, strength based and have a badass summon I'd think you're better off blackguard or battle cleric. Or am I missing some thing?
That said if I were to make a strength based shadowdancer I might go half orc for the free ambidexterity and their great orc-only craftable double weapons. It still seems like a rough mix though.
(And in the interested of full disclosure I strongly considered a dex and con based rogue/SD/dwarven defender that could get both epic dodge and 15 damage reduction but I think I decided it was too cheesy. This may have been back when you could take 3 stat gifts, can't remember)
That said if I were to make a strength based shadowdancer I might go half orc for the free ambidexterity and their great orc-only craftable double weapons. It still seems like a rough mix though.
(And in the interested of full disclosure I strongly considered a dex and con based rogue/SD/dwarven defender that could get both epic dodge and 15 damage reduction but I think I decided it was too cheesy. This may have been back when you could take 3 stat gifts, can't remember)
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Re: Strength Shadowdancer help please
You need 15 dexterity for Ambidexterity, otherwise dual-wielding is a wash. Go half-orc, Baron!
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Re: Strength Shadowdancer help please
I didn't post the dual-wield build because of the awful AC - that there is meant to be a one-hander w/ shield.gilescorey wrote:You need 15 dexterity for Ambidexterity, otherwise dual-wielding is a wash. Go half-orc, Baron!
Rolled: Helene d'Arque, Sara Lyonall
Shelved: Kels Vetian, Cin ys'Andalis, Saul Haidt
Playing: Oshe Jordain
Shelved: Kels Vetian, Cin ys'Andalis, Saul Haidt
Playing: Oshe Jordain
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Re: Strength Shadowdancer help please
Question: the purpose of the Improved Two Weapon Fighting Feat at level 12 is to allow switching between dual wielding and sword and board when needed?
All articles that coruscate with resplendence are not truly auriferous. Meaning: all that glitters ain't gold.
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Re: Strength Shadowdancer help please
No, that's just me not proof-reading the build very thoroughly! Nice spot, Aero.
Rolled: Helene d'Arque, Sara Lyonall
Shelved: Kels Vetian, Cin ys'Andalis, Saul Haidt
Playing: Oshe Jordain
Shelved: Kels Vetian, Cin ys'Andalis, Saul Haidt
Playing: Oshe Jordain
Re: Strength Shadowdancer help please
I would recommend 17/8/5 instead. You lose one pre-epic feat, no ab, get more skill points, and can max out rogue-related skills. You also get an extra 1d6 on sneaks.
EDIT: Pre-epic is 9sd/7fi/4rogue or 10sd/6fi/4rogue. Either way, start rogue for a whole bunch of skill points, go fighter, then 4th rogue to meet sd requirements.
EDIT: Pre-epic is 9sd/7fi/4rogue or 10sd/6fi/4rogue. Either way, start rogue for a whole bunch of skill points, go fighter, then 4th rogue to meet sd requirements.
Last edited by Zavandar on Mon Oct 30, 2017 6:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Intelligence is too important
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Re: Strength Shadowdancer help please
You do also lose 1 AC and 1 (soft) Str from fighter 10, but yeah, having more than just baaaaarely 10 UMD would be good.
Rolled: Helene d'Arque, Sara Lyonall
Shelved: Kels Vetian, Cin ys'Andalis, Saul Haidt
Playing: Oshe Jordain
Shelved: Kels Vetian, Cin ys'Andalis, Saul Haidt
Playing: Oshe Jordain
Re: Strength Shadowdancer help please
Shadowbouncer, Silly Edition
Half-orc, doubleblade or doubleaxe
Rogue11/SD14/Fighter5
STR 20 -> gifted 22 -> 29 with levelups -> 30 with Great STR I
DEX 14
CON 14
WIS 8
INT 8
CHA 6
Pre-epic feats (10)
Dodge, Exotic, TWF, WF, Mobility, ITWF, Impcrit, KD, Weapon spec, Blindfight
Epic feats (5+1Rogue)
Great STR I, EWF, Epic shadowlord, Epic weapon spec, Epic prowess, Opportunist
AB: base 21 + STR 16 + Weapon feats 4 + EB 4 = 45 (+flank+opportunist, situational)
Damage: immense! 6APR, SA die 14, critical threat range 15, strengthy beast, EWS
AC: piss-poor
Gear: always wear a level 25 bard round your neck
Pros: It's awesomesauce!
Cons: Hush.
Half-orc, doubleblade or doubleaxe
Rogue11/SD14/Fighter5
STR 20 -> gifted 22 -> 29 with levelups -> 30 with Great STR I
DEX 14
CON 14
WIS 8
INT 8
CHA 6
Pre-epic feats (10)
Dodge, Exotic, TWF, WF, Mobility, ITWF, Impcrit, KD, Weapon spec, Blindfight
Epic feats (5+1Rogue)
Great STR I, EWF, Epic shadowlord, Epic weapon spec, Epic prowess, Opportunist
AB: base 21 + STR 16 + Weapon feats 4 + EB 4 = 45 (+flank+opportunist, situational)
Damage: immense! 6APR, SA die 14, critical threat range 15, strengthy beast, EWS
AC: piss-poor
Gear: always wear a level 25 bard round your neck
Pros: It's awesomesauce!
Cons: Hush.
Characters: all poor babies suffering from neglect
Re: Strength Shadowdancer help please
I currently have a half orc double axe str SD in epics.
It does hilarious damage.
9/5/16 or 7/6/17 rogue/fighter/SD works. First one is a rogue skill dump in epics, second is better shadow.
It does hilarious damage.
9/5/16 or 7/6/17 rogue/fighter/SD works. First one is a rogue skill dump in epics, second is better shadow.
Re: Strength Shadowdancer help please
You beautiful thing!
Characters: all poor babies suffering from neglect
Re: Strength Shadowdancer help please
Id actually argue that the strength based one is stronger. It does way more damage, has a perma guard that cant be WoFd or Dismissed and huge conceal so no need for AC. Ive been able to solo most content quite easily and if you lose your shadow, hide for 3 mins and go again. Beauty of strength based is I can slap on a bless weapon and still dish out very decent dmg to undead and outsiders who are sneak immune unlike the dex version.Lurch wrote:A proper build really depends on what you're aiming to do with the character, or rather what you wish the character to be able to do.
Say, if you're interested in a sneak attacker that can do damage even outside it's core focus (being a strength oriented build), using the classes you outlined, then I would suggest something like rogue 11 / fighter 6 / shadowdancer 13. This would net you 6d6 sneak attack, crippling strike, epic weapon specialization, epic dodge (though only if you manage to get 25 dexterity on top of having high strength, a tall order) and epic shadowlord summon that grants another 6d6 sneak attack on top.
Pre-epic you would go rogue 8 / shadowdancer 8 / fighter 4 to get 16 BAB for four main-hand attacks and choose whether to invest in two weapons or not (this would cost 3 feats), to synergize with sneak attack. You'll want blind-fight, weapon focus, weapon specialization and improved critical nonetheless. Dodge and mobility are required for shadowdancer. Quarterstaff gives a bonus to hit for being two-handed and is also a dual-wielding weapon, courtesy of Arelith changes, so it might be your best bet.
Choose whether you want 13+ intelligence or not, as any less limits you from taking staple combat feats like expertise or improved knockdown. If you don't get expertise then I would recommend at least investing in parry for defense. Active combat feats like called shot, knockdown and disarm are actually pretty good for you since you get to lower enemy strength and therefore discipline scores with crippling strikes, making them more effective. Problem is, you only get 1 more feat on top of the aforementioned ones, unless you're human, which in turn makes your stat spread worse, assuming you want to put most points in strength & dexterity with some left over for constitution and intelligence.
Honestly though, given how attack bonus and armor class are much more important for a sneak attacker who already has the damage covered, I don't see a strength focused build really competing with a weapon finesse quarterstaff wielding dexterity oriented one, especially as the latter can take epic dodge with no problems, unlike the former. The potential higher damage output gives little comfort when you actually hit less often with said damage and get hit way more often, as both AC and parry skill favor a dexterity approach.