Surviving without Discipline (PvP)

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yellowcateyes
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Re: Surviving without Discipline (PvP)

Post by yellowcateyes » Sat Oct 14, 2017 2:51 pm

rookie wrote:So 1 class skill maxed out, 1 epic feat, and 10 pieces of gear versus... drinking a clarity potion.

Also the discussion was on someone without discipline as a class skill, their numbers would be:

16 ranks +3 skill focus + 20 item bonus = 39 + d20 vs AB50 +d20

If the prereq to epic skill focus was removed then they could at least have a decent chance for the same investment until the melee downed a TS pot.
If you cross-class a skill, you'll be bad at that skill. It's pretty basic D&D. Getting at least 1 class with Discipline as a class skill has never been difficult in NWN.

You could also not stand still and wait to be knocked down while someone is drinking a TS pot in front of you.

Additionally, Clarity pots have a cooldown. Skill points don't.
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Re: Surviving without Discipline (PvP)

Post by Cortex » Sat Oct 14, 2017 2:53 pm

What's so immensely bad about taking a dip for discipline & other benefits? It won't make you any less of a mage or a warrior or whatever.

I could go straight barbarian and be a dum dum smash it build, or take a few fighter and rogue/bard levels to further empower the build with skills and feats. Same thing with casters, I could play a pure wizard... or a wizard with a dip, and roleplay the same.
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Re: Surviving without Discipline (PvP)

Post by rookie » Sat Oct 14, 2017 3:29 pm

You can also multiclass to have good saves too, getting to the point where you have a very low chance of being affected by stuff if you're willing to invest in it.

And if you're not willing to invest, you can use expendables to be immune for a time. If there was a "knockdown immunity" pot with the same function as clarity then things would be roughly equivalent.

I'm not advocating for a knockdown immunity pot, but there are easily available ways to avoid many save-or-lose spells and pretending they don't exist when comparing the two seems a bit off.

Edit - Also I'll add that if unless you're avoiding conflict until you reach high teens/epics when a lot of dips start you ability to defend against spells or knockdown is pretty terrible. PCs have options in consumables and buffs to avoid most of the worst spells but not KD.

I personally have no issues with dipping, almost every character I play does it, but I hate the "just wait until I'm level 30" mentality.
Last edited by rookie on Sat Oct 14, 2017 3:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Surviving without Discipline (PvP)

Post by Cortex » Sat Oct 14, 2017 3:43 pm

Meleers don't have multiple abilities to make use of, unlike casters who can attack your will, fortitude or reflex.
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Re: Surviving without Discipline (PvP)

Post by flower » Sat Oct 14, 2017 4:24 pm

You somehow ignore that TS potion is not adding full 20 points of AB because weapon ab and other bonuses count up to the cap.

You frown that for almost immunity to KD unless bad luck you need to get epic feat.

I will tell you a secret. That feat need all classes which try to engange in melee, even f-wm. They could instead take +4 save.

You want to be nearly immune to something? You have to make investment. This apply for everyone and everything. Casters have huge advantage. They can pick your weakest defense. Meleer cannot. They always do one thing, slashing. And imagine that those ugly mages are daring to take discipline making use of KD harder.

In the end it is your option to ignore that but you will carry consequences and saying because of wrong choice is somethig broken is quite off.

All comes at price. I would love to not bother with discipline on my cleric and take other skills but then i would be always KDed. So i sacrificed epic feat and skill points. I got it covered and it was my choice. You have to make your own.

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Re: Surviving without Discipline (PvP)

Post by rookie » Sat Oct 14, 2017 4:44 pm

As for the TS pot thing earlier, I said if they could take ESF on a CC skill it would matter. You can't. Also you don't need anywhere near the full +20 attack cap shift to take something from a "decent" chance to much worse which is why I didn't put any numbers to it.

flower:
I never said it was broken, I said I wanted some variance in it so it had a success value that was a bit less powerful but did something even if the discipline check succeeded. As it is it is pretty binary and personally I find that uninteresting. I also took issue with your numbers that ignored several elements.

Cortex:
The saves thing is a good point, though melee do have some ways to target other things than disc if they invest it is a pretty steep downgrade.
Cortex wrote:or a wizard with a dip, and roleplay the same.
I actually find it a bit funny as your statement long ago I read when I first came to the server:
and if you dip monk levels as a druid and don't RP the class or character properly I'll hate you forever.
was the first time I ever wondered if dipping was looked down upon here. The statement was an obvious exaggeration but it made me wonder.

It is clear though that things are not going to change so I'll just leave it alone from here on out.

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Re: Surviving without Discipline (PvP)

Post by Cortex » Sat Oct 14, 2017 4:49 pm

In regard to the druid/monk thing, being a monk involves a lot more than being a rogue. Including in behavior and alignment, a rogue is far more flexible. It's like taking a PM/BG/paladin levels and not RPing those classes. Fighter, barbarian, rogue, bard, are all "mundane" in how they behave, with fewer limitations.
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Re: Surviving without Discipline (PvP)

Post by Lorkas » Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:25 pm

The first several levels of monk don't give anything that can't be explained as simple hand-to-hand training though. The bonus to mind affecting saves and immunity to disease are the only real exceptions.

I'd say any monk planning to reach things like SR immunity definitely need to RP their monkhood seriously, but 3-6 levels could be easily RPd as having been trained in martial arts but not being an ascetic (maybe by monks training people in self defense without the mediation and stuff--this is a thing several monk orders do).

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Re: Surviving without Discipline (PvP)

Post by Cortex » Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:36 pm

I'd call 16 AC from a dip more than just hand-to-hand combat.
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Re: Surviving without Discipline (PvP)

Post by Lorkas » Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:43 pm

I mean it's really good hand to hand combat but it isn't anything that is flavoured as anything but being good at martial arts. We're not talking about the really wild spiritual powers that monks get at later levels here.

Heck, it's less weird than a rogue's sudden ability to cast ninth level magic from scrolls, and nothing I'd be upset at someone for featuring only lightly in their RP.

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Re: Surviving without Discipline (PvP)

Post by Hunter548 » Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:51 pm

Lorkas wrote: Heck, it's less weird than a rogue's sudden ability to cast ninth level magic from scrolls, and nothing I'd be upset at someone for featuring only lightly in their RP.
Let's be fair, scrolls are pretty intentionally set up to be simpler to cast than the spell itself is, because all the preparation is done through the crafting process -- You just have to know or fake the trigger (The somatic/verbal components, essentially).
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Re: Surviving without Discipline (PvP)

Post by Iceborn » Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:58 pm

flower wrote:You want to be nearly immune to something? You have to make investment. This apply for everyone and everything. Casters have huge advantage. They can pick your weakest defense. Meleer cannot. They always do one thing, slashing. And imagine that those ugly mages are daring to take discipline making use of KD harder.
I want to nibble at this part.

We have... how many, 22, 23 classes in the game? And Arelith as its own subpaths that further expand the class combinations, and mostly every class has expanded mechanics.

I'm afraid to tell that if you built a melee which only ability was left clicking at things and then watch them die, you shot yourself in the foot, and it was your choice to build a one-trick pony which cannot approach a situation by any other way than repeatedly stacking KD to the combat queue on a target.
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Re: Surviving without Discipline (PvP)

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Sat Oct 14, 2017 11:48 pm

The ONLY apt comparison for this situation is True Seeing vs. Stealth. ANYONE can get ranks in spot/listen, right? By the logic being thrown around in this thread, true seeing should be nerfed and everyone should have to have ranks in spot/listen.

I'm fairly certain most of the people arguing that KD is fine don't feel that way, however- personal convenience being a biasing factor for everyone. I could be wrong. I'm too lazy to go digging for quotes in the stealth vs. ts thread.

Saying you don't think the meta needs to change is fine (I said as much while acknowledging the flaws inherent in KD spam-play- that flaw being that it isn't fun to be on your back for the entire fight), but don't throw out fallacious logic as though KD can be compared to other things to justify how it works.

Knockdown is the only disable in the game without a hard counter that doesn't require a class-based deep skill investment. There is nothing else like it in the game. There is zero counter-argument to this fact. Anyone claiming otherwise is objectively, observably wrong.

P.S. Knockdown does not work in PnP the way it does in NWN- there is no feat required to make someone prone. Further, you don't lose your entire round to being prone in PnP; you lose a move action, and a feat can be taken to get to your feet as a free action, completely nullifying the loss of actions.
Last edited by Aelryn Bloodmoon on Sat Oct 14, 2017 11:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Surviving without Discipline (PvP)

Post by Cortex » Sat Oct 14, 2017 11:50 pm

I think True Seeing is fine, having played stealth characters before. I'd prefer if it affected only a radius around you, but I don't think it's broken. And like it was said before, you can't compare Skill VS Skill with Skill VS Attack.

And personally, I consider Knockdown so unimportant to me that I often muse skipping it on melee characters.
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Re: Surviving without Discipline (PvP)

Post by yellowcateyes » Sat Oct 14, 2017 11:53 pm

Yes, let's nerf Trueseeing.
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Re: Surviving without Discipline (PvP)

Post by Nitro » Sun Oct 15, 2017 12:24 am

Looks like we can strike "True seeing derail" off the Arelith forum bingo.

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Re: Surviving without Discipline (PvP)

Post by Dreams » Sun Oct 15, 2017 12:57 am

This thread TLDR: Take Discipline.

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Re: Surviving without Discipline (PvP)

Post by BrilliantInsanity » Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:12 am

Pretty much the gist of any thread where discipline is related. Until we get NWN2 knockdown/disarm behavior (aka more in line with PnP functionality) the consensus will never be anything but "take discipline or die to KD spam."

It's part of the meta, and unless/until such time as thats changed (given the years and the fact it has NOT, assume it never will) discipline is life.

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Re: Surviving without Discipline (PvP)

Post by Xanos950 » Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:15 am

In todays News:
Surviving without Discipline (PvP)
TLDR Answer: You won't survive.

Dreams wrote:This thread TLDR: Take Discipline.

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Re: Surviving without Discipline (PvP)

Post by Red Sunset » Sun Oct 15, 2017 2:19 am

Nah Don't listen to the nay sayers. You can survive without discipline. It wont be easy, and you'll need to think quick, and be cunning and creative. But, it can be done.

And who cares if you run away and hire thugs to do your dirty work. Mages in the stories rarely stay to fight unless there is no alternative. Embrace it!

Also consider this line like I repeated myself a few times saying you can survive just so it seems like it must be true cause you keep hearing it.

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Re: Surviving without Discipline (PvP)

Post by yellowcateyes » Sun Oct 15, 2017 4:53 am

Red Sunset wrote:You can survive without discipline. It wont be easy, and you'll need to think quick, and be cunning and creative.
But if you were quick and cunning, you'd have put points into Discipline.
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Re: Surviving without Discipline (PvP)

Post by gilescorey » Sun Oct 15, 2017 5:22 am

You can play without discipline, just as you can play a pure rogue and succeed.

That isn't to say it's the best way of doing things, though -- good play will take you farther than a discipline dump will, but both will take you even moreso.

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Re: Surviving without Discipline (PvP)

Post by Poolbrain » Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:07 am

Surviving without disc: Like other people said: make sure you win before they can get to you. Strike first, strike hard and be as unfair as you can be. If they reach you, ask for forgiveness, if you succeed doing it strike again. Bring some friends too.

Dont engage in fights you know you cant disable or win in a round or by two. The problem with this is that people will hate you cause you won so easy, not realizing how easy you would die. People prefer being given a shot. So RP doing it super well.

Most builds can win 100% of their fights, just gotta know how to pick them and what to do to be certain of a win.

Plan ahead and go dirty.

(talking for mages.you don't win in melee without disc)

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Re: Surviving without Discipline (PvP)

Post by Red Sunset » Sun Oct 15, 2017 3:58 pm

yellowcateyes wrote:But if you were quick and cunning, you'd have put points into Discipline.
Myself yes, but my character had flaws. Pride, etc, and I am stressing that some other player shouldn't feel obligated to go that path if she feels it stifles creativity or just doesn't feel right for her -character-. You can still have fun and preform a lot better than what people here are making it out to be.

You all can talk about builds; it's interesting, but it's also a slippery slope.

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Re: Surviving without Discipline (PvP)

Post by BegoneThoth » Sun Oct 15, 2017 3:59 pm

How is it a slippery slope?
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