Surviving without Discipline (PvP)

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Scurvy Cur
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Re: Surviving without Discipline (PvP)

Post by Scurvy Cur » Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:49 am

But how?

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flower
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Re: Surviving without Discipline (PvP)

Post by flower » Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:38 am

yellowcateyes wrote:Knockdown is pretty powerful, it's true.

If only there was a skill anyone could invest in that counters the ability.

You mean, like discipline?

I think it is unfair for casters to have save/die spells.

Meleers should have also hit-save/or die :lol:

Now seriously, you can counter KD with discipline. Yes, you have to multiclass for it. To Exchange some power (caster level, bonus feats) for being not KDed all the time is a fair trade.

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Lorkas
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Re: Surviving without Discipline (PvP)

Post by Lorkas » Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:42 am

Surviving without discipline usually means just avoiding PvP, especially PvP without allies.

PvM is easy enough on discipline that you could do it, but if you expect a lot of PvP, you will not survive without discipline.

Basically, take it unless you know exactly what you're giving up by skipping it--you're pre-emptively surrendering basically any PvP. If you're okay with never winning at PvP, go for it.

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Giftstoff
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Re: Surviving without Discipline (PvP)

Post by Giftstoff » Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:09 am

I find the trend of using memes and insults anytime the questions of the meta are brought up frankly, disgusting. I find that its STILL allowed here even moreso.

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BegoneThoth
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Re: Surviving without Discipline (PvP)

Post by BegoneThoth » Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:41 am

I don't think disc discussion really qualifies as 'the meta' as it's always been this way.
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Spaniardl
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Re: Surviving without Discipline (PvP)

Post by Spaniardl » Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:05 pm

I used to play on Heart of Winter, a PvP server that had bonuses for pure mages, who basically had to pvp without discipline. Here are my tips...

Build Tips
1 - Make sure your DCs are as high as possible. Since you have no discipline to keep you up, these have to be your defense
2 - You won't get AC high enough to save you in most situations.

Your 'save me' tactics
1 - Greater Sanctuary - this is your 'save me' spell. You can plan your next spell choices before it drops
2 - Hellball. If you are accurate with it, you can knock them down and not yourself
3 - Timestop. Your second 'save me' spell. Get ESF Transmutation.
4 - Look for their eyes. If they don't have see invis up, then obviously just invis.
5 - Haste potions. You should probably keep them handy cuz they are faster than the spell
6 - Epic warding. You need it up or your dead if they get a kd off on you.

Next
1 - Bigby's clenched fist. Always helpful to drop this on a guy. Even if your DCs are not that high, they will eventually roll a 1 if the fist is on them long enough.
2 - Negative energy burst. One of the best pvp spells. Drop their strength enough so they could be encumbered and in some cases get a speed bug... Keep using it as they drink their resto potions
3 - Thunderclap. As somebody already said, its attacks 3 saves, it is awesome. This can be used to initially 'save' you or as a secondary disable option
4 - Mord them. Dispel everything so they have to rebuff things like see invis etc, so you can use invis to your advantage to survive
5 - Damage shields can help burn them as they attack. But, the ultimate goal is you not getting hit much at all.

to kill
- This depends on your spell focuses. You have to use an educated guess at what their lowest save is and disable them based upon that.

Spaniardl
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Re: Surviving without Discipline (PvP)

Post by Spaniardl » Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:08 pm

Oh also, before you use a forceful hand you should try to get off a negative energy burst which will lower your targets strength and give your forceful hand a greater chance to succeed

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Re: Surviving without Discipline (PvP)

Post by yellowcateyes » Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:18 pm

A few notes about Arelith-specific differences from the above:
- Epic Warding is not possible on Arelith due to the 34 spellcraft requirement and the 30 max levels.
- Bigbies can be avoided completely by an initial reflex save, rather than forcing a per-round check automatically.
- ESF Transmutation has no effect on Timestop in Arelith. (There is no saving throw).
- Mord's and G-dispel are both capped at 20 (plus Abjuration foci), do don't bet on reliably dispeling a See Invisible off of a mundane character. It can happen, but don't depend on it.
- Damage shields don't stack on Arelith.
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Re: Surviving without Discipline (PvP)

Post by Spaniardl » Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:59 pm

yellowcateyes wrote:A few notes about Arelith-specific differences from the above:
- Epic Warding is not possible on Arelith due to the 34 spellcraft requirement and the 30 max levels.
- Bigbies can be avoided completely by an initial reflex save, rather than forcing a per-round check automatically.
- ESF Transmutation has no effect on Timestop in Arelith. (There is no saving throw).
- Mord's and G-dispel are both capped at 20 (plus Abjuration foci), do don't bet on reliably dispeling a See Invisible off of a mundane character. It can happen, but don't depend on it.
- Damage shields don't stack on Arelith.
Ok then. Sounds like your screwed! =)

Although, you should be able to dispel their see invis and drink a potion pretty quickly. Or also use greater sanctuary, so those seem to be the best options.

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Scurvy Cur
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Re: Surviving without Discipline (PvP)

Post by Scurvy Cur » Fri Oct 13, 2017 3:06 pm

With mords and g.dispel capped where they are, dispelling see invis is a pretty remote likelihood.

Better to just gsanc and flee.


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Re: Surviving without Discipline (PvP)

Post by dallion43 » Fri Oct 13, 2017 3:31 pm

Knockdown is the only somewhat relevant CC melees have. And it works mostly VS those that don't bother to defend against it.
it is similar to not bother to have a relevant fort save on a build. Any build.

Just like melees trade power on gear for saves to counter mages ID and CC, a crafted gear with higher disc bonus can be introduced for those who won't dip at any cost. Trade stats etc on a gear for higher disc bonus. Increase item cost, add high UMD(casters only, maybe?), lower other bonuses on the item.

P.C
Until then, AQ3 G.Sanc FTW..ee...FTRun, as the solution with the most success % on it, if you are not willing to acknowledge that nwn has Fort/Ref/Will/Disc as the 4 main saves on any PC.

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Dreams
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Re: Surviving without Discipline (PvP)

Post by Dreams » Sat Oct 14, 2017 2:06 am

How to win/survive as a Mage with no discipline: Time Stop + Attunement Potion. Ta da, you've lived to fight another day, or at the very least, rethink the series of terrible decisions that led you to a place where you thought discipline wasn't needed.

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Re: Surviving without Discipline (PvP)

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Sat Oct 14, 2017 2:28 am

dallion43 wrote:Knockdown is the only somewhat relevant CC melees have. And it works mostly VS those that don't bother to defend against it.
it is similar to not bother to have a relevant fort save on a build. Any build.
Find me a Fort save DC 70 vs. anything in the game, and I'll concede any ground I've given to the "Knockdown isn't fun" side. Otherwise, the problem with chaining an inexhaustible attack to permanently keep someone on their back is self-apparent.

It is much easier to get 30+fort than it is to pass a 60-70 dc discipline check cross-classed, and you can't pray your way out of a knockdown. The two aren't comparable, IMO.
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Re: Surviving without Discipline (PvP)

Post by gilescorey » Sat Oct 14, 2017 2:33 am

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:Find me a Fort save DC 70 vs. anything in the game, and I'll concede any ground I've given to the "Knockdown isn't fun" side. Otherwise, the problem with chaining an inexhaustible attack to permanently keep someone on their back is self-apparent.

It is much easier to get 30+fort than it is to pass a 60-70 dc discipline check cross-classed, and you can't pray your way out of a knockdown. The two aren't comparable, IMO.
Fortitude save isn't a skill. You can't have 33 ranks in Fortitude.

You're right: the two really aren't comparable at all.

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Re: Surviving without Discipline (PvP)

Post by rookie » Sat Oct 14, 2017 2:53 am

Most death and mind saves can be negated by Death Ward and Clarity with no investment in upping saves/spellcraft. The latter for anyone as it comes in potion form. They're unbreachable and even with ESF: abjuration are unlikely to be dispelled (unless you're a MC caster then they're not too hard to dispel). There isn't an "anti-KD consumable" to deal with melee CC (unless you want to argue Shapechange scrolls for Huge size critters versus those without Improved KD).

Knockdown tends to be very binary where it tends to either be wildly effective or next to useless barring luck + TS pots. I'd rather see if have some variance such that a success doesn't completely decide things but a hit against a high disc target gives a lesser effect. For example:

Successful KD = Clear action queue, 50% spell failure, flat-footed, -10 strength/dex (ignore ability drain immunity) -100% movement (ignore FoM) for a round. Does nothing further if they're already "on the ground".

Hit but they make the discipline check = 10% spell failure, lowers movement speed (ignore FoM) by 10% for a round. Stacks up to 20%.

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Peppermint
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Re: Surviving without Discipline (PvP)

Post by Peppermint » Sat Oct 14, 2017 3:35 am

Like, I'm all for the "I want to pure class!" thing. If that's your schtick, you do you, girl! I've even added a couple pure class bonuses for the masochists that embrace that kind of lifestyle.

But.

The server is not really balanced around that, and one could make a very, very good argument that D&D as a whole isn't either. Heck, a single perusal of the FRCS will reveal that a ton, if not all of NPCs are multiclassed to some degree.

Knockdown is not hard to play around if you're not masochistically shooting yourself in the foot. And balancing under the assumption that you are would just render a balanced option less than stellar for every other case.

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Re: Surviving without Discipline (PvP)

Post by Baron Saturday » Sat Oct 14, 2017 3:54 am

Peppermint wrote:The server is not really balanced around that, and one could make a very, very good argument that D&D as a whole isn't either. Heck, a single perusal of the FRCS will reveal that a ton, if not all of NPCs are multiclassed to some degree.
This. Like have you seen Elminster? Wizard/Fighter/Rogue/Cleric? Suuuuuure he dipped those classes for RP reasons.
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BegoneThoth
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Re: Surviving without Discipline (PvP)

Post by BegoneThoth » Sat Oct 14, 2017 4:01 am

D&D isn't balanced at all. I think it's detrimental to the setting to make it balanced.

Look at 5e. Bounded accuracy is about as much fun as .999=1, you never actually meet your goal just get incrementally closer, when you level up, you throw another 9 on your decimal pile but you know you're still not at 1 you're just a little closer to a goal the game is destined to never let you hit.

That's what 'balanced' d&d looks like (and it's still not balanced).
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High Primate
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Re: Surviving without Discipline (PvP)

Post by High Primate » Sat Oct 14, 2017 4:02 am

yellowcateyes wrote:Knockdown is pretty powerful, it's true.

If only there was a skill anyone could invest in that counters the ability.
Oh! Oh!

Never mind.
Some builds I've worked on (not recommended):
Charisma Battlecleric
"E-Dodge Brycer"

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BegoneThoth
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Re: Surviving without Discipline (PvP)

Post by BegoneThoth » Sat Oct 14, 2017 4:02 am

Though I think just making disc/tumble class skills for all would be real good.
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Peppermint
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Re: Surviving without Discipline (PvP)

Post by Peppermint » Sat Oct 14, 2017 5:09 am

Were I making the server from scratch*, I'd probably just give tumble to everyone, and have tumble grant half the standard bonus (so it's a nice to have, but not a must have).

(* And in this strange alter reality, I get to call all the shots.)

But I'm not.

And making those changes would shake up a lot of things.

Suddenly, battle clerics with full CL!

Pure healers with discipline!

Fighters with even more fighter bonuses!

etc. etc.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not opposed to moving in that kind of direction. But objectively speaking, is either really much better than the other? And relatedly, is the cost worth the overhaul investment?

YMMV, I suppose. But personally, I'd rather focus on adding cool new stuff than fixing a bunch of broken stuff that was only added because "muh purism".

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BegoneThoth
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Re: Surviving without Discipline (PvP)

Post by BegoneThoth » Sat Oct 14, 2017 5:52 am

Well if you just do disc/tumble as class skills for all classes UMD becomes the big thing, and I'd still demand time-stop scrolls on any cleric over 30 cleric.

not to mention the value of the evasion dip of monk/rogue for druids/everyone else. I don't think it would shake up too much just take the edge off.

Remember the monk dip for druid is like 14 ac and evasion. That's worth the dip, it's like a perpetual divine shield. Giving a druid disc/tumble doesn't invalidate that value.
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Re: Surviving without Discipline (PvP)

Post by Red Sunset » Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:57 am

I've got a few ideas since I did play a mage to 30 wizard and no discipline. I played her for a couple years even. First I'd like to say I did that because it fit the character. Now, if you want to argue that's silly that's your prerogative, but character is more important to me than some ooc discussion about what's more powerful.

I did make use of autoquicken III. It seems to eliminate initiative checks too so it's faster than it seems, plus the first spell each round can't trigger attacks of opportunity (although I imagine most just have defense casting toggled on these days). It saved my character a -great- number of times, and some of them when someone was rushing at her. I made sure to keep potentially hostile folk a good bit away too, no need to ignore your own weaknesses yeah?

I never used thunderclap since she didn't have evocation foci, but that's a good suggestion. I've a few other useful spells to list:

Acid fog - 75% movement speed penalty. Very useful to drop then drop some other nasty things on top of it. Maybe evards, maybe incendiary cloud. Use your imagination. The movement speed will keep someone busy for a tiny bit. The key is to make sure you -know- your next few attacks. You don't and wont have time to plan. Have something ready in mind.

Incendiary cloud - Blinds anyone caught in the area of affect no save. The trick here is to -not- be where they think you will when they run out. Opposite side is nice. Also since they're blinded they wont really know if they're at the center of the cloud or the edge....if you feel like gambling you can make it so they have to move across the entire diameter of the cloud if they take a straight line towards you.

Timestop - You can use this to either run away or attack whichever seems appropriate. I prefer attack myself. In my experience an autoquickened time stop is unexpected as an opener. Casting timestop then acid fog incendiary cloud evards is bound to in most cases cause deadly panick. Other things that might work are negative energy burst evard's balagarn's iron horn. Anyone or thing with low strength isn't going anywhere while the tentacles keep whacking away. Make sure to keep casting iron horn as they get up...or just keep a wand for that. I'm sure there are other creative ideas for timestop too.

Web - Anyone with low reflex isn't getting anywhere near you. There are certainly counters like with everything. Be watchful and have a plan for what to do next.

Grease - This is more useful in conjunction with other movement speed and or disabling spells such as web and acid fog. It adds a nice reflex save where bonus to saves from spellcraft doesn't count too.

Shades - Last time I used it those summoned shadows still have crippling strike. I know I hobbled one weapon master to some really low strength score in moments. He wasn't going anywhere fast. As a pure caster their ab is decent. Throw in illusion focus for more fun.

Cloud kill - this drains constitution each round save for half. The key is doing something to keep the target stuck while it saps away. I maximized it for further fun as then it drained at least 3 constitution each round. Acid Fog and or grease might help keep someone stuck.

Greater Sanctuary - I kept an extended one of these prepared at all times. You can either use it to run or to ward plus summon things and then ward the summons. I preferred summoning things. I kept scrolls of gate around just to have an endless supply of nasties. The duration of an extended sanctuary is long enough to either kill someone with never ending summons or cause some delay while you move far enough away to try timestop and some mean three spell combo or anything else creative. People whine if you leave an area that's been hit with the summoning ward of dismissal and banishment, but dimensional anchor never barred all summoning on Toril with one casting either so be ready to move out of the anti summoning zone if necessary.

Darkness - not everyone has ultravision up all the time. While not a great opening spell it can in the right circumstances sow confusion of where you are especially with some use of invisibility.

Sunburst - Your vampire popper (if they fail reflex save they're dead. And even if they survive they take a lot of damage and are still going to be likely blind). Beyond being deadly to undead any living thing that fails a reflex is blinded permanently. Permanently....and you'd be surprised how many don't carry means of correcting that...or at least cant find it fast. I like to spam this one during large battles.

Golems. Yes I know. People say they're horrible weak worthless, but its not the entire truth. The stone ones like the ones in baldur's gate slow opponents no save. Here they toss out a slow bolt though. Each one has three. Naturally things with lots of dexterity can avoid it, but your average fighter isn't going to be that lucky. Sure, someone can just use a freedom wand, but that's an action done while hopefully some summons and golems are beating on the person and you're setting yourself up for a deadly combo of spells.

My wizard mostly ran unless she had no better idea...or was just plain mad. She planned to live forever so no sense in taking risks when you could just hire some angry gnolls to bash someone's face in. What I mean is: so maybe you're not the best in a straight up fight, but who cares? This is role play not some arena.

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flower
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Re: Surviving without Discipline (PvP)

Post by flower » Sat Oct 14, 2017 11:42 am

33 ranks + 10 epic feat + 20 items boons

63 without str.

Whom are you trying to fool KD is worse to avoid than spell DC ?

63 + d20 vs AB50 +d20?

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Re: Surviving without Discipline (PvP)

Post by rookie » Sat Oct 14, 2017 2:45 pm

flower wrote:33 ranks + 10 epic feat + 20 items boons

63 without str.

Whom are you trying to fool KD is worse to avoid than spell DC ?

63 + d20 vs AB50 +d20?
So 1 class skill maxed out, 1 epic feat, and 10 pieces of gear versus... drinking a clarity potion.

Also the discussion was on someone without discipline as a class skill, their numbers would be:

16 ranks +3 skill focus + 20 item bonus = 39 + d20 vs AB50 +d20

If the prereq to epic skill focus was removed then they could at least have a decent chance for the same investment until the melee downed a TS pot.

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