Surviving without Discipline (PvP)

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Aero Silver
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Re: Surviving without Discipline (PvP)

Post by Aero Silver » Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:18 am

Lorkas wrote:The first several levels of monk don't give anything that can't be explained as simple hand-to-hand training though. The bonus to mind affecting saves and immunity to disease are the only real exceptions.

I'd say any monk planning to reach things like SR immunity definitely need to RP their monkhood seriously, but 3-6 levels could be easily RPd as having been trained in martial arts but not being an ascetic (maybe by monks training people in self defense without the mediation and stuff--this is a thing several monk orders do).
I don't get it. Why would a monk KD a caster instead Fist Stunning them? It has a longer duration and costs less AB.
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Baron Saturday
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Re: Surviving without Discipline (PvP)

Post by Baron Saturday » Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:29 am

Because the DC of stunning fist will be ~30 at best, unless you're build specifically for stunning. Unless the mage in question has really neglected their fort save, that isn't too hard to beat. A KD will be much more reliable (at least against a wizard with no discipline).
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Aero Silver
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Re: Surviving without Discipline (PvP)

Post by Aero Silver » Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:54 am

Okay, but a monk player in PvP wouldn't know that the caster doesn't have Discipline and should not underestimate them.
So wouldn't Stunning Fist be more appropriate? It seems easier to fish for a roll of 1 in Fortitude rather than in Discipline.
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Cortex
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Re: Surviving without Discipline (PvP)

Post by Cortex » Mon Oct 16, 2017 5:05 am

Click examine

Discipline: below average

hmm
:)

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Lorkas
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Re: Surviving without Discipline (PvP)

Post by Lorkas » Mon Oct 16, 2017 5:44 am

Also, a stunning fist must deal damage to even trigger a save, and monks don't tend to be able to break through premonition or defensive essences without a crit. You'd be fishing for a crit followed by fishing for them to roll a 1, and you've probably got a limit of 20 stunning fist uses per day if you're a 20/10 build.

It's not gonna happen unless you're catching them without premo up. In that case, maybe.

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Re: Surviving without Discipline (PvP)

Post by Alantar » Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:14 pm

I think it's clear that, for PvP, discipline is a very important/fundamental skill.

I completely agree with that, but I'll still go for a pure wizard for several reasons, knowing is not the best option for PvP.

First of all, I think that without discipline you need to be more "creative" in order to survive. As Red Sunset stated, you need to think fast and use your spells wisely to have a chance. Second, I think it fits better with certain characters (like mine, Gnome Scholar STR 8).

What I'd like to discuss are all those "creative" possibilities for casters who don't pick discipline (for whatever reason).

Thanks!

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Re: Surviving without Discipline (PvP)

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Mon Oct 16, 2017 1:28 pm

Cortex wrote:Click examine

Discipline: below average

hmm
We should remove Discipline from "examine."
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Xuuldar
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Re: Surviving without Discipline (PvP)

Post by Xuuldar » Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:51 pm

What's so immensely bad about taking a dip for discipline & other benefits? It won't make you any less of a mage or a warrior or whatever.
I don't think there is anything immensely bad about it, I just personally would like to see it not be mandatory. It would be nice if/when the classes are being reworked, instead of just focusing on how they perform in a 20/7/3 or a 27/3 scenario that they actually get something really good for going pure. There have been a few reworks that have given some nice benefits at 28 and 30 and I wish that were the case for all. If you are going to forgo disc, UMD, or Tumble it would at least be nice to have abilities at 28 and 30 that make it a difficult and viable choice rather than dips being the only good choice.

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Xanos950
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Re: Surviving without Discipline (PvP)

Post by Xanos950 » Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:12 am

Alantar wrote:I think it's clear that, for PvP, discipline is a very important/fundamental skill.

I completely agree with that, but I'll still go for a pure wizard for several reasons, knowing is not the best option for PvP.

First of all, I think that without discipline you need to be more "creative" in order to survive. As Red Sunset stated, you need to think fast and use your spells wisely to have a chance. Second, I think it fits better with certain characters (like mine, Gnome Scholar STR 8).

What I'd like to discuss are all those "creative" possibilities for casters who don't pick discipline (for whatever reason).

Thanks!
All The Kewl Dip-dudes Dip Discipline To Survive.

As a pure 30 You're not gonna have any more spell slots than a 26/4 or 27/3 guy. And if your sole survival tactic is to "think fast" then you'd be just as good off with some dip, because they too, can do that. In addition to tumble, disc, etc.

Red Sunset
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Re: Surviving without Discipline (PvP)

Post by Red Sunset » Sat Oct 21, 2017 4:23 am

Xanos950 wrote:All The Kewl Dip-dudes Dip Discipline To Survive.

As a pure 30 You're not gonna have any more spell slots than a 26/4 or 27/3 guy. And if your sole survival tactic is to "think fast" then you'd be just as good off with some dip, because they too, can do that. In addition to tumble, disc, etc.
Sometimes the mentality of just going with discipline sticks people in a rut where they are not as creative as they think they are. The saying that poverty is a great motivator to learning to fix things.

Now plus pure mages do have better spell penetration. That can matter in the case of certain summoned things, unless they've -all- been put down to 22 SR since I've been busy at work here. It definitely matters if you're fighting any high level drow too. Some of the little but subtly useful things often get ignored in these discussions.

Now you -can- just take spell penetration to mitigate that, but that's one extra feat lost whereas someone with more mage levels doesn't need to take that.

And since I didn't put points in discipline I had extra skill points for other things. I went for cross classing hide and move silently instead. With +2 on gear and some dexterity and cat's grace etc you can get that pretty decent. I escaped one guy by casting invisibility and hitting stealth. He thought he was smart and used a see invisibility wand; that didn't help him. You can also cast darkness hit stealth. Blind enemies, then hit stealth. It's quite useful and unexpected.

Many of the mages I met that went the discipline route also focused on constitution. This always left a rather glaring hole in reflex saves and will saves. At least will saves that don't let spellcraft count (mind fog+confusion can be rather nasty then) One grease or web and they were often in dire straights. When a fight starts, you don't always have mind protection cast. And, You don't always have wards cast. A cleric storm of vengeance is a nasty thing that discipline cant save you from.

Anyway, what I mean is going discipline is only good so long as everyone else does it too really. Otherwise whereas maybe your mage might be a bit better at facing off with weapon masters you're likely going to get toasted by a clever pure wizard with autoquicken III that focused on saves. What that means is: your sure fire tactic of being built for pvp fails.

Build stuff is interesting and it's useful to know the mechanics, but things are a lot more complex than being "best", especially if I can just cast invis hit stealth get away, and then hire angry gnolls to bash someones face in....or pay someones friend a million gold to betray and murder her (totally got scammed on that one, but it was still a good idea.)

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BegoneThoth
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Re: Surviving without Discipline (PvP)

Post by BegoneThoth » Sat Oct 21, 2017 5:15 am

wizards have so many skill points i was considering snagging appraise as I had every wizard class skill and still had more skillpoints available and ALSO full disc and tumble

so stifling creativity is not a thing for the few builds (casters) that actually lose something by not going full 30 (eg monolith form).
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Giftstoff
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Re: Surviving without Discipline (PvP)

Post by Giftstoff » Sat Oct 21, 2017 5:17 am

BegoneThoth wrote:wizards have so many skill points i was considering snagging appraise as I had every wizard class skill and still had more skillpoints available and ALSO full disc and tumble

so stifling creativity is not a thing for the few builds (casters) that actually lose something by not going full 30 (eg monolith form).
There will hopefully be some cookies for pure casters in the future, as with the druid ones.

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cptcuddlepants
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Re: Surviving without Discipline (PvP)

Post by cptcuddlepants » Sat Oct 21, 2017 5:20 am

Giftstoff wrote:
BegoneThoth wrote:wizards have so many skill points i was considering snagging appraise as I had every wizard class skill and still had more skillpoints available and ALSO full disc and tumble

so stifling creativity is not a thing for the few builds (casters) that actually lose something by not going full 30 (eg monolith form).
There will hopefully be some cookies for pure casters in the future, as with the druid ones.
With the Ride changes, we might be getting to the stage where non-wizard classes might need to start getting extra skill points, just to keep up with wizards.
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Red Sunset
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Re: Surviving without Discipline (PvP)

Post by Red Sunset » Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:21 pm

BegoneThoth wrote:wizards have so many skill points i was considering snagging appraise as I had every wizard class skill and still had more skillpoints available and ALSO full disc and tumble

so stifling creativity is not a thing for the few builds (casters) that actually lose something by not going full 30 (eg monolith form).
This was only part of my argument. You can make the argument that in the case of skill points at least my argument falls apart, and there may be some truth there; but, this doesn't necessarily make the entire premise fail.

I'm not really sure what skills the builds with discipline go for, and I should note my wizard only started with 16 base intelligence (then got another +2 from drow racial bonus). So I likely had a number of less skill points than most. I did that and then started with 14 wisdom and 14 dexterity. I felt it reflected the character more, but it was useful to have a slight boost to reflex and will saves too. And there's at least one thing in game I think having some wisdom is good for.

Anyway, so the skill point thing is probably not a good point as you point out, but it's not all there is to being creative.

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