Pure wizard vs 26/4

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Alantar
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Pure wizard vs 26/4

Post by Alantar » Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:55 am

Hello,

What do you think are the pros and cons of a pure wizard versus a 26/4 (for example, 26 wizard 4 ranger, or 26 wizard 4 rogue)?

In my opinion, the pros are:

Pure wizard:
No need to take Epic Skill Focus - Discipline, so you can get another Epic Spell.
It's easier to surpass the SR of different creatures.
Some bigby's hands are slightly more powerful (Grasping, Clenched and Crushing take into account the caster level).
Several spells are slightly more powerful (some of them last longer, others make more damage -for example, an Empowered Fire Arrow will do +6d6+6 extra, and a Maximized Fire Arrow +24 damage).

26/4 Ranger
Decent discipline (around 50-55), so you can resist a knockdown.
High Hide/Move silently - I imagine it could be useful in PVP.
High Spot/Listen

26/4 Rogue
More AC due to Tumble
High Hide/Move silently - I imagine it could be useful in PVP
High Spot/Listen
"Social" skills

So, on balance: for PvP I think 26/4 ranger is the best but... If you don't plan to be involved frequently in PvP, probably pure wizard is best for PvE, and still can survive/win a PvP with the right preparation/spells.
Last edited by Alantar on Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Cortex
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Re: Pure wizard vs 26/4

Post by Cortex » Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:08 pm

If you're uncertain about what you want, go the masochist route and wait until level 27-29 to go either bard/ranger/rogue. That's what I usually do, and you get +1 CL.
:)

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Punished Hans
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Re: Pure wizard vs 26/4

Post by Punished Hans » Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:33 pm

Cortex' option to dip only 3 levels aside, you forgot to take into account dipping ranger in epics, effectively granting you another epic spell focus on the bonus feat ("making up" for having to take ESF: Disc).

Dipping bard is also an option, one which offers tumble and discipline, as well as social skills. Often regarded better than rogue, since discipline is really useful on any caster.

I'd follow Cortex' advise and dip in epics, so that you have some time to decide between
1-20 Wiz/21-23 Ranger/24-29 Wiz/30 Ranger, 1-26 Wiz/ 27-29 Ranger/30 Wiz,
1-26 Wiz/27-29 Bard/30 Wiz or pure wizard (The latter of which I don't like much, since not having discipline enables any lvl 10 with a stick and KD to lock you down and slowly kill you).

In the end, the pure wizard is only as impressively powerful as the dirty lowlevel fighter that kb'd them over a slice of cheese in front of the Nomad.

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Re: Pure wizard vs 26/4

Post by Spaniardl » Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:52 pm

I don't think there are any pros to pure wizard. You need discipline or you will spend most of your time on your back. If I made one I probably would go no ac. Get as much hp as possible and discipline, and pairing it with ranger is a good idea for the bonus feat.

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Re: Pure wizard vs 26/4

Post by Alantar » Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:00 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the ranger's extra feat must be Favored Enemy.

I'm at level 15 and, so far, I haven't been involved in any PvP and I died just once due to a KD.

Is PvP more common at higher levels? Don't you think other methods like Bigby's hands, Timestop etc. could avoid the KD in many cases?

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Re: Pure wizard vs 26/4

Post by Xerah » Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:09 pm

Alantar wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the ranger's extra feat must be Favored Enemy.

I'm at level 15 and, so far, I haven't been involved in any PvP and I died just once due to a KD.

Is PvP more common at higher levels? Don't you think other methods like Bigby's hands, Timestop etc. could avoid the KD in many cases?

It doesn’t have to be FE in epic levels.

On my high level pure wizard, I’ve been involved in PVP once and that was with a group. Discipline is 0 and I could know the number of times I’ve been knocked down on one hand. That said, it’s a good (non crusader) type character so it’s not the kind who would really get involved.

There really is only one okayish reason to not go 26/4 with bard (19-21 bard) and that’s it you are a wild Mage looking for perfect -fate. Adding UMD and discipline plus whatever other skills you want to save for is the optimal choice.
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Re: Pure wizard vs 26/4

Post by Hunter548 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:11 pm

Alantar wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the ranger's extra feat must be Favored Enemy.

I'm at level 15 and, so far, I haven't been involved in any PvP and I died just once due to a KD.

Is PvP more common at higher levels? Don't you think other methods like Bigby's hands, Timestop etc. could avoid the KD in many cases?
The extra feat can also be a spell focus if you take the level in epics.

PvP does tend to become more common as you get higher in levels, in my experience, largely as a result of your character having been around more and thus being more likely to have people Want to kill them (Or be more likely to go on drow raids, or get called to defend against drow raids, as an example). Higher level monsters also start to use knockdown.
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Commie
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Re: Pure wizard vs 26/4

Post by Commie » Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:50 pm

I'd go bard or ranger for that free feat.

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Re: Pure wizard vs 26/4

Post by Peppermint » Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:28 am

Please don't wait until late epics to take bard levels. That's just bad and Cortex should feel bad for suggesting it.

The most optimal route for Wizard/Bard is to go 18 wizard/2 bard pre-epics, then take a fourth bard level at 29/30 for a skill dump. The reason for this is that it pushes your 20th level wizard bonus feat into epic levels, allowing you to trade a general feat for an epic one.

On the other hand, if you're going ranger, you do want to take your first ranger level in epic levels so you can benefit from the FE -> Epic Feat swap.

Bearing this in mind, the trade off on Wizard/Bard vs. Wizard/Ranger is:

Wizard/Bard
- UMD
- +3 AC (Max Tumble)
- +3 Reflex, +2 Will

Wizard/Ranger
- +1 CL
- +1 General (Pre-Epic) Feat
- +4 Skill Points
- +8 Hit Points

I feel the Wizard/Bard variant is stronger, but YMMV. It's debatable.

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Re: Pure wizard vs 26/4

Post by Lorkas » Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:26 am

Might be worth noting that the ranger feat swap works even in pre-epic, since Greater Spell Focus is on their bonus feat list. You just have to make sure to take the first ranger level at a point when you've selected Spell Focus but not GSF for some spell school.

It also means a fourth ranger level in late epic, but it permits an earlier discipline dump.

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Cortex
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Re: Pure wizard vs 26/4

Post by Cortex » Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:27 pm

27/3 also gets you +1 power to summons.
:)

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Re: Pure wizard vs 26/4

Post by Peppermint » Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:38 pm

Good catch, Lorkas. I am bad. Thanks.

(Cortex is still worse, though.)

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Re: Pure wizard vs 26/4

Post by Lurch » Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:34 am

Going by the wiki, it seems to me that Harper Mages get the best of both worlds, free epic feats both from the mage specialization and Harper favored enemy feats (which can be taken as epic skill foci or improved combat casting, etc.), full caster level, and skills (appraise, discipline, listen, persuade and tumble to name a few).

Although, you have to be a Harper, so there's that.

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Re: Pure wizard vs 26/4

Post by yellowcateyes » Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:44 am

Lurch wrote:Going by the wiki, it seems to me that Harper Mages get the best of both worlds, free epic feats both from the mage specialization and Harper favored enemy feats
Not entirely free as qualifying for Harper requires a two feat investment that most characters wouldn't take otherwise. (Iron Will and Alertness).

When you're going Harper Mage, you're generally just moving some pre-epic feats into epic levels. Compare to Ranger, where you don't need to invest feats to gain feats. The Harper path does have its advantages, but can frequently come out with fewer total useful feats than alternatives.
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Re: Pure wizard vs 26/4

Post by Lurch » Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:57 am

Granted, it does take some pre-epic feat and skill investment, but I'd say that is a small price to pay for a nigh undispellable and un-knockdownable(?) caster. Eschew materials for convenience too.

Alternatively a bard or a sorcerer could try Harper Paragon to basically become a multiclass paladin with full arcane caster levels that they would not otherwise get. Favored enemy/curse song feats can also be used to take Great Charisma or Dexterity.

Alantar
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Re: Pure wizard vs 26/4

Post by Alantar » Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:21 pm

Thanks for your answers.

I think I'll try a pure wizard (knowing it's not the best option for PvP) because I think it fits better with my character.

In case of a PvP, I'll try to survive using Time Stop, Bigby's hand, etc.

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Re: Pure wizard vs 26/4

Post by BegoneThoth » Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:02 pm

Pvp is really a lot more dependant on quick-drawing. If you get caught unbuffed it's not going to matter if you're 30 or 26/4 anyway.
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Cortex
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Re: Pure wizard vs 26/4

Post by Cortex » Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:15 pm

It's more about skill, because if the fully buffed ambusher is bad or you're significantly better, you can easily come out on top.
:)

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Re: Pure wizard vs 26/4

Post by BegoneThoth » Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:18 pm

I mean, if you're unbuffed, and suddenly notice time is stopped, and they haste appear from invis and whack you with true-striked IKD's, you're done, that 15 disc you get from going 26/4 is not going to tip anything.

And it's not hard to do, so "skill" isn't really an issue here, there's nothing to time stop, true strike, spam ikd. You're a wizard, without EMA or other buffs up, in time stop, you're going to go down like a sack-o-bricks.
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Re: Pure wizard vs 26/4

Post by Cortex » Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:25 pm

You're adding more context based factors to my reply which was reffering exclusively to:
Pvp is really a lot more dependant on quick-drawing.
I should have been more clear. Regardless, epic abjuration can help a little in a situation like that, or just popping a lense.
:)

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Re: Pure wizard vs 26/4

Post by BegoneThoth » Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:32 pm

You can lens while time stopped, in combat, or while under attack? I don't think you can.

PvP is about 70% who gets the jump on who, 25% builds, and 5% who rolled 1's or 20's (Guess I just die to a level 19 wizard's Wail of the Banshee despite +46 Fort vs spells!).

That's assuming people play and build correctly. I don't account for bad builds or bad play, and just assume general competency.
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Re: Pure wizard vs 26/4

Post by Cortex » Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:08 pm

You also can't attack someone without interactive RP.
:)

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BegoneThoth
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Re: Pure wizard vs 26/4

Post by BegoneThoth » Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:41 pm

I don't see how that has any baring on mechanics discussions at all, we're comparing mechanical build options, 26/4 vs 30, not interactive rp prior to pvp.
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Re: Pure wizard vs 26/4

Post by dallion43 » Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:55 pm

BegoneThoth wrote:I mean, if you're unbuffed, and suddenly notice time is stopped, and they haste appear from invis and whack you with true-striked IKD's, you're done, that 15 disc you get from going 26/4 is not going to tip anything.
At lvl 30 max cross class disc is 16. Class skill is 33. 17 points difference.
To take +10 ESF.Disc feat you need 20 skill points in the skill. Since this feat is a must(imho) on most non str/very,very high AC builds(doesn't help when flat-footed) the attainable(1 feat cost) difference between 26/4 and 30 is 27 discipline. 33+22(11*2)+10+5(non str build) is ~70 disc. ~10+~70 disc is mostly enough vs TS knock.

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Not to mention that pesky AA called shot users can keep you on the other side of their 4k high rez monitors until you dead. Most spells do have a range limit, not to mention melee builds.

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Re: Pure wizard vs 26/4

Post by BegoneThoth » Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:59 pm

That's true, I forgot about requiring 20 base ranks for ESF, it's almost never relevant.
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