Pure wizard vs 26/4

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Cortex
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Re: Pure wizard vs 26/4

Post by Cortex » Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:10 pm

BegoneThoth wrote:I don't see how that has any baring on mechanics discussions at all, we're comparing mechanical build options, 26/4 vs 30, not interactive rp prior to pvp.
It was to demonstrate that no matter the effectiveness of the build, they can just use a portal lense if they're ambushed.
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Re: Pure wizard vs 26/4

Post by BegoneThoth » Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:19 pm

Cortex wrote:
BegoneThoth wrote:I don't see how that has any baring on mechanics discussions at all, we're comparing mechanical build options, 26/4 vs 30, not interactive rp prior to pvp.
It was to demonstrate that no matter the effectiveness of the build, they can just use a portal lense if they're ambushed.
Not always true, you can ward-teleport to stop it, or if there are mobs around you can't lens either. I'm sure there are ways to put a target into 'combat' without being hostile as well so they can't lens. There's also the people that pre-hostile all non-party members and then respond appropriately when their targets summons turn and attack the pre-hostile player.

So lensing out is anything but guaranteed.
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Re: Pure wizard vs 26/4

Post by Cortex » Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:31 pm

BegoneThoth wrote:
Cortex wrote:
BegoneThoth wrote:I don't see how that has any baring on mechanics discussions at all, we're comparing mechanical build options, 26/4 vs 30, not interactive rp prior to pvp.
It was to demonstrate that no matter the effectiveness of the build, they can just use a portal lense if they're ambushed.
Not always true, you can ward-teleport to stop it, or if there are mobs around you can't lens either. I'm sure there are ways to put a target into 'combat' without being hostile as well so they can't lens. There's also the people that pre-hostile all non-party members and then respond appropriately when their targets summons turn and attack the pre-hostile player.

So lensing out is anything but guaranteed.
Ward teleport is a viable option, if they're in PvE and you force them into PvP with minimum interaction, I expect you'll be getting a DM talking to.

Forcing combat state into someone so they can't lense is also an exploit, and hostiling to bait summons is really, really low. And the kind of behavior that you shouldn't seek out.

You shouldn't try to skirt around the rules of engagement.
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Re: Pure wizard vs 26/4

Post by BegoneThoth » Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:40 pm

I'm not the one skirting, I don't do any of those things, but if your whole escape strategy revolves around your character being in the right OOC 'combat state' it's not reliable.

Additionally lensing has almost nothing to do with the discussion of 26/4 vs 30, but if you're really debating it go 26/4 and get ESF discipline as you'll die less in pvp.
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Re: Pure wizard vs 26/4

Post by Cortex » Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:42 pm

It doesn't, though the OP's doubts have already been cleared, and some deviation I think is acceptable.
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Re: Pure wizard vs 26/4

Post by Tetra » Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:45 pm

forget I said anything..
Last edited by Tetra on Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Pure wizard vs 26/4

Post by BegoneThoth » Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:46 pm

Tetra wrote:
I'm sorry but.. It's not THAT bad, especially if you're indecisive, and for some of us the dump levels where you don't really gain anything caster-wise are the most boring so putting them off to the end when the wizard abilities are maxed out more palatable. It's not like making a bad choice with a Weaponmaster where every point and decision counts.
I'd strongly recommend taking the route that gets you more saves and more epic feats, as well as planning out your build level by level and skillpoint by skillpoint before you even hit 'create new character.'
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Re: Pure wizard vs 26/4

Post by Peppermint » Sat Oct 14, 2017 12:24 pm

-pray during timestop to survive burst.

Timestop scroll (note: can't be interrupted) to get some breathing room.

At this point, your best bet is probably just to run and fight again another time, since you're not making the most effective use of Timestop. Though you can follow up with a Greater Sanctuary if you really want to, and go from there.

At any rate, provided you've a reasonable constitution score, discipline can certainly save you even if you're cold ambushed.

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Re: Pure wizard vs 26/4

Post by BegoneThoth » Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:06 pm

Cast time stop

Drink attunement potion

/tk "I don't have TIME for this!"

*vanish*
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Re: Pure wizard vs 26/4

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Sun Oct 15, 2017 12:39 am

Cortex wrote:Forcing combat state into someone so they can't lense is also an exploit, and hostiling to bait summons is really, really low.
I feel it's worth mentioning that this is not a one-sided equation. Arguably, having a demon/monster in your employ/under your command is a valid reason to initiate hostilities vs. the summon (which automatically initiates hostile interaction with the summoner).

Also, given the strike-first-and-win nature of PvP, isn't it kind of gimpy to say that you can't hostile someone just because they have a summon out and it might attack you?
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Re: Pure wizard vs 26/4

Post by Cortex » Sun Oct 15, 2017 12:48 am

Rule lawering is not something I'm fond of, nor is it my place. What I'm saying is that you shouldn't find ways to skirt the RP before PvP, such as baiting summons to attack you on purpose.

Ditto on attacking a summon with its summoner present, you won't attack a kobold PC immediately even though you'd attack a kobold NPC just fine. I recall a big horrible mess because someone attacked summons, with mass PvP shortly after.

... of course, what I say above is not final nor a ruling, but it is how I've interpreted the rules thus far, and how DMs/Admins tend to look at it.
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Re: Pure wizard vs 26/4

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Sun Oct 15, 2017 12:59 am

Cortex wrote:Rule lawering is not something I'm fond of, nor is it my place. What I'm saying is that you shouldn't find ways to skirt the RP before PvP, such as baiting summons to attack you on purpose.
Got it! Sorry for the misunderstanding.
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Re: Pure wizard vs 26/4

Post by Dr_Hazard89 » Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:32 am

I've played like .. three pure wizards to 30! I think you'll be fine. It's true that any peasant with a stick and KD can just whoop your butt in some circumstances, but only if you let yourself get in that position. All my enemies died, more often than not .. even when I was out numbered, even against optimal powerbuilds. It just involves more planning and caution than other playstyles.

I commend you on your decision to be a pure wizard. You will be the wizardiest wizard, and other wizards devoted to monitoring your spell effectiveness will take note of your slight improvement in potency over less wizardy wizards.
So .. probably one haughty elf mage, a pair of gnomes somewhere and me.


But all that matters is you have fun, and I think that the physical weaknesses that come with a 'stereotypical mage' play-style are a pretty fun set of weaknesses to have and play around.

Actually, now I want to roll up another wizard!
Characters: Xun'sali (ACTIVE), Tianae Tymeaneldth (Rolled), Sylali (Rolled), Magpie (Rolled), Ker'uanna Tymeaneldth (Rolled), Lepota Poklona (Rolled), Andariel Bloodletter (Shelved), Tahl'tril Cyredrretyn (Rolled), L'omithiel (Shelved).

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Re: Pure wizard vs 26/4

Post by MoreThanThree » Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:39 am

Why 26/4? Why not 27/3? Sounds like missing out on an extra epic spell for a dubious benefit.
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Re: Pure wizard vs 26/4

Post by Wytchee » Sat Oct 21, 2017 2:48 pm

MoreThanThree wrote:Why 26/4? Why not 27/3? Sounds like missing out on an extra epic spell for a dubious benefit.
26/4 enables you to take 3 levels of your dip class earlier rather than waiting to 26. In the case of a wizard, it also allows you to push your level 20 bonus feat into epics.
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Re: Pure wizard vs 26/4

Post by gilescorey » Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:42 pm

The only one that gets any benefit is wizard; clerics/sorcs/etc don't get anything out of it aside from convenience at a cost of slight power difference later on.

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Re: Pure wizard vs 26/4

Post by legionetrangere » Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:41 pm

Sorry for hijacking the thread. Hope this is not considered necro-posting, after all, tis aint so old.

My question is, is it worth it to take both maximize spell and extend spell when going for 27 wizard / 3 bard?
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Re: Pure wizard vs 26/4

Post by Hunter548 » Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:42 pm

Yes.
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Re: Pure wizard vs 26/4

Post by legionetrangere » Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:01 pm

LvL Classe Feat
1 wiz Luck of heroes / combat casting
2 wiz
3 wiz expertise
4 wiz
5 wiz extend spell
6 wiz improved expertise
7 wiz
8 wiz
9 wiz great fortitude
10 wiz spell penetration
11 wiz
12 wiz toughness
13 wiz
14 wiz
15 wiz greater spell penetration / iron will
16 wiz
17 wiz
18 wiz lighting reflex
19 wiz
20 wiz maximize spell
21 wiz epic fortidude
22 wiz
23 wiz improved combat casting
24 wiz epic spell mage armor
25 wiz
26 wiz epic spell penetration
27 wiz epic reflex
28 bard
29 bard
30 bard epic will

last three bard levels for skill dump, knowing that i'll not take bard pre-epic, but on the last three lvls. Any adjustments you guys would make?
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Re: Pure wizard vs 26/4

Post by Hunter548 » Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:22 pm

Improved expertise can't be used in spellcasting on Arelith, so you probably want to drop it. Spell penetration line of feats really isn't useful on Arelith. Combat Casting is worthless. You really don't need that many save feats on a caster.

Generally, a wizard is going to want 3-4 spell focus lines, and more epic spells.
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Re: Pure wizard vs 26/4

Post by One Two Three Five » Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:22 pm

What are you, uh, going for here?
Even without knowing that, changes to be made:
1. Expertise turns off when you cast a spell here, so remove both of those.
2. Spell mantle and protection from spells exists, as well as lots of spellcraft gear, so get rid of: luck of heroes, iron will, lihgtning reflexes, great fortitude, epic fortitude, epic reflex, epic will (what was your thinking here?)
3. With 27 caster levels you don't really need spell pen feats.
4. take bard at 20 or 26 so your last level can be wizard.
5. Due to how concentration works, if you toggle defensive casting mode on you only need a (adjusted!) score of 27 concentration to never fail a concentration check, so get rid of combat casting line as well.
This'll free up... 8? pre-epic feats that you'll use on, probably, 3 spell focus and greater focus combos (abjur, conj, and evo are popular), and 5? epic feats to be used on 3 of those focuses and two extra epic spells.

Or, and I'm only listing feat levels here for purpose of writing the feats, order them however you want.
1: conj, greater conj
3: evo
5: extend spell
6. greater evo
9. abjuration
10: greater abjuration
12. maximize spell
15. craft wand? who cares
15. fourth focus if you really want
18. empower spell, brew potion, or that fourth greater focus
*highly recommend you take bard at 20 to delay that last wizard feat., making your progress something like 19 wizard/3 bard with wizard at 24 again. That's what I'll go with here.
21. epic spell focus conj
24. Epic focus abjur
24. epic focus evo
27. Dragon Knight
27. EMA (Mileage varies. I don't use it on non-spellswords myself, but whatever. Trade for g-ruin or hellball otherwise)
30. [epic spell]
30. [epic spell]
If you took a fourth focus, tag out EMA, period, for that fourth focus. Up to you tho. Probably got some feat math wrong or something.
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Re: Pure wizard vs 26/4

Post by legionetrangere » Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:58 pm

One Two Three Five wrote:What are you, uh, going for here?
Even without knowing that, changes to be made:
1. Expertise turns off when you cast a spell here, so remove both of those.
2. Spell mantle and protection from spells exists, as well as lots of spellcraft gear, so get rid of: luck of heroes, iron will, lihgtning reflexes, great fortitude, epic fortitude, epic reflex, epic will (what was your thinking here?)
3. With 27 caster levels you don't really need spell pen feats.
4. take bard at 20 or 26 so your last level can be wizard.
5. Due to how concentration works, if you toggle defensive casting mode on you only need a (adjusted!) score of 27 concentration to never fail a concentration check, so get rid of combat casting line as well.
This'll free up... 8? pre-epic feats that you'll use on, probably, 3 spell focus and greater focus combos (abjur, conj, and evo are popular), and 5? epic feats to be used on 3 of those focuses and two extra epic spells.

Or, and I'm only listing feat levels here for purpose of writing the feats, order them however you want.
1: conj, greater conj
3: evo
5: extend spell
6. greater evo
9. abjuration
10: greater abjuration
12. maximize spell
15. craft wand? who cares
15. fourth focus if you really want
18. empower spell, brew potion, or that fourth greater focus
*highly recommend you take bard at 20 to delay that last wizard feat., making your progress something like 19 wizard/3 bard with wizard at 24 again. That's what I'll go with here.
21. epic spell focus conj
24. Epic focus abjur
24. epic focus evo
27. Dragon Knight
27. EMA (Mileage varies. I don't use it on non-spellswords myself, but whatever. Trade for g-ruin or hellball otherwise)
30. [epic spell]
30. [epic spell]
If you took a fourth focus, tag out EMA, period, for that fourth focus. Up to you tho. Probably got some feat math wrong or something.
1. Just to make it clear: Both expertise, as the improved version turn off when casting?
2. I like high saves, thats why. lol. Duly noted, nonetheless :D
3. Is Greater Spell Penetration worth taking at pre-epic at least?
4. You're telling me to take lvl 30 on wizard to get the bonus feat, right?
5. Combat casting is quite useful low-mid lvl, tho by lvl 25 with the concentration build up, it does indeed gets quite useless

Now a few questions: How long Epic Mage Armor and Epic Dragon Knight lasts in Arelith? Because with the exception of these two, i really don't feel like taking any other epic spell
Will having Epic Spell Focus Conjuration allow for a longer EDK?
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Re: Pure wizard vs 26/4

Post by Wytchee » Fri Dec 08, 2017 5:07 pm

legionetrangere wrote:
1. Just to make it clear: Both expertise, as the improved version turn off when casting?
2. I like high saves, thats why. lol. Duly noted, nonetheless :D
3. Is Greater Spell Penetration worth taking at pre-epic at least?
4. You're telling me to take lvl 30 on wizard to get the bonus feat, right?
5. Combat casting is quite useful low-mid lvl, tho by lvl 25 with the concentration build up, it does indeed gets quite useless

Now a few questions: How long Epic Mage Armor and Epic Dragon Knight lasts in Arelith?
Will having Epic Spell Focus Conjuration allow for a longer EDK?
1. Yes, both are deactivated. Mages with 70+ AC used to be a thing.

2. High saves aren't really relevant for a mage, especially a wizard. You have Protection from Spells which adds a flat +8 to saves vs. spells. You have Spellcraft, which combined with gear and your Int modifier should be around 60 for another + 11 to saves vs. spells. You also have Spell Mantle and Mind Blanks and Negative Energy Protection from Shadow Shield.

3. None of the spell penetration feats are worth taking unless you have <24 caster levels.

4. Wizards get an epic bonus feat at wizard levels 23, 26 and 29. Up to you how to arrange those.

5. No reason whatsoever to take the Combat Casting feats. You're a wizard with ample skillpoints. Pump concentration. Once you have flat 27 concentration (easy with items) you can walk around in defensive casting mode with 0% chance of spell failure from concentration checks.

Epic Mage Armor is not worth taking AT ALL unless you are building a mage for AC, which is difficult to do now that Greensteel armors have been nerfed. There is functionally no difference between 10 AC and 30 AC in later levels. It's a waste of a feat and of spell components.

Dragon Knight lasts 2 rounds per caster level. So with 26 caster levels it will last 52 rounds, or just over 5 real life minutes. Mage Armor lasts hours (6 minutes) per caster level.

EDIT: by "delaying that last wizard bonus feat" they mean pushing your level 20 bonus feat to level 23, thereby turning it from a general bonus feat into an epic bonus feat. This way, you can choose another Epic Spell Focus or Epic Spell if you like.
Last edited by Wytchee on Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pure wizard vs 26/4

Post by Sockss » Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:29 pm

C'mon guys, high saves are good for /everything/.

PFS / mantles only give you an action advantage in PvP if you come pre-prepared (which hardly ever happens with such short duration buffs).

Are they worth taking over other things? Not necessarily, but save are always, always relevant.
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Re: Pure wizard vs 26/4

Post by Wytchee » Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:11 am

Sockss wrote:C'mon guys, high saves are good for /everything/.

PFS / mantles only give you an action advantage in PvP if you come pre-prepared (which hardly ever happens with such short duration buffs).

Are they worth taking over other things? Not necessarily, but save are always, always relevant.
You're not wrong, but you shouldn't really waste a feat on +1 uni saves or +2 specific saves when you do have other avenues to ward off spells. And wizard is about being prepared, which is why they have a high skill ceiling and are vulnerable when caught off guard.

As a wizard, if you don't come prepared, you're dead. Really. No matter what you do.

My point is, yeah saves are important, but not worth spending a feat on that could be spent on, say, another spell focus or crafting feat. Your opinion may differ.
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