Wis-based monk

[Seven Sons of Sin]

How good is Ki Strike +5?
What do Wis-monks do better than dex, or str?
Do you still multiclass into rogue in the standard 20/10 build?
Or are there other options available?
What's the "best" wis-based build?

[High Primate]

What do Wis-monks do better than dex

Flail.

or str?

Flail and avoid getting hit.

Wis doesn't modify AB. A monk needs AB to be good at hitting things with its fists. Thus, wis-monks are garbage-tier, unless you have lots and lots of divine power scrolls, and even then, you don't have either the str or dex investment to make your AB all that reliable.

Wis does modify stunning fist DC, but that's not much good if you can't hit things.

[Hunter548]

1) Fairly lackluster
2) Nothing, really.
3) You probably want a rogue multiclass for uncanny dodge and UMD, but 10 levels might be a bit much since you can't take epic dodge
4) Not really. You need uncanny dodge to not lose a good chunk of AC
5) Incorporating monk levels? Probably 26 druid/4 monk with dragonshape.

[Lorkas]

A WIS based monk is going to struggle if you try to build it just like other monks. The only thing I could suggest to try would be to take Zen Archery and try to turn it into a ranged attacker, but it will do terrible damage unless you're primarily taking non-monk classes.

Take mostly ranger levels with just a few monk levels and zen archery, for example, would do okay damage for a ranged attacker and do okay damage against Favored Enemies.

[Astral]

What's the "best" wis-based build?

27 cleric 3 monk.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

If you dex-based, is it at all worthwhile to go for Ki Strike +5? Is Ki Strike +5 worth it?

If you go str-based, how screwed are you?

[Hunter548]

If you dex-based, is it at all worthwhile to go for Ki Strike +5? Is Ki Strike +5 worth it?

If you go str-based, how screwed are you?

1) Not really.
2) Not really.
3) Pretty badly. STR based monks end up being really, really squishy and dying a lot, for not a huge increase in damage.

[SwampFoot]

Ki Strike +5 has the benefit of bypassing mage-casted DR (stoneskin and up). Also the better your wisdom the higher your DC on stunning fist.

You'll want to be primarily dex based, though for ab. The Ki feats only require 21 base wisdom. Easy to get with gifts. I personally think elf or Halfling work best for this type.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

Continuing the chain of thought -

What is the "best" monk unarmed build? Is the goal e-dodge, and 20monk/10rogue?

Can PDK fit with dex-monk? Shadowdancer? Ranger? Paladin?

Do you gain any advantages from more than 20 monk levels that outweigh multiclassing?

[Hunter548]

Yes

PDK makes everything better but is going to get reworked to be less of an "Always take this, this is the best class ever" type of thing. Shadowdancer can fit, letting you take fighter or assassin or w/e (Since you get the pre-reqs for E-Dodge from 5 shadowdancer levels, rather than the 10 you need for rogue) though it's usually not as good as the rogue dip. Ranger doesn't really fit well with fist monks, and paladin makes your MAD status even worse.

Not particularly. Spell resistance and speed keep scaling, but you need that e-dodge.

[Lorkas]

Getting that extra speed and SR gives you a little edge on other monks and casters, of course, but ultimately those advantages aren't worth the cost of epic dodge.

The only build that can get more than 20 monk levels and still get epic dodge is a monk/SD blend, since SD takes only 5 levels to get you defensive roll rather than the 10 that you need to get it from rogue. I've seen things like 22 monk / 5 SD / 3 rogue or 21 monk / 6 SD / 3 rogue. I made a 25 monk / 5 SD myself (I think my disdain for how common UMD is is well documented by now), and it was an acceptable level of power for me (woefully underpowered to some, perhaps). Taking even a single level more than 25 in that 25 monk/5 SD build would prevent you from taking epic dodge though, and I don't recommend that.

[Astral]

You should be able to make a svirf monk who's dex based (and gets epic dodge) but with 21 wisdom for ki+5 and even improved stunning fist feat in there. At least it used to be possible in arelith years ago, not sure how svirfs work these days.

[Peppermint]

Wis-based is for the stunning fist DC.

You'll struggle to hit things, though. You'll need stealth (e.g. cornersneaking) to keep opponents flatfooted for each attack.

Fighter is a good dip, since it grants access to more Improved Stunning Fist feats. SD can also be good for Epic Dodge (if you can squeeze the DEX; you may be unable to on Arelith) and HiPS (makes it easier to flatfoot opponents).

It's not a build I'd recommend for PvE, though it can be a real nuisance in PvP.

[Opustus]

CoT bonus feats can be taken into Great Wisdom and Improved Stunning Fist (+2 Stunning fist DC), and Fighter bonus feats can be taken into Improved Stunning Fist. You could go STR/WIS or DEX/WIS (this seems the preferred route, so I will give examples in regard to it).

For example: Monk10/CoT10/Rogue10 or Monk16/Fighter4/Rogue10 or so on.

Start with high DEX and WIS (for example 16 in both). Use a +2 DEX race and take Gifts for +2 DEX and WIS. You start with DEX20 and WIS18. Getting to WIS19 for Extra Stunning from there is pretty easy, and grabbing CoT/Fighter levels in Epic for more feats is hunky-dory!

EDIT: INTERESTING IDEA. You should be able to use Stunning Fist totem-shifted as Druid. Druid/Monk?

[rookie]

Yes, you can use Stunning Fist with totem forms, dragon shape, Shapechange, etc. You cannot use it with forms that have a non-creature weapon such as the Shifter's drow form.

An important note (from the NWN wiki, is true here on Arelith too last I checked):
Monks may use this feat only once per day per monk level (even if their character level would otherwise qualify them for more uses).

So you have to build for extra stunning fists or go heavy into monk.

[Pavor Nocturnus]

My favourite is 16 monk/4 fighter/10 rogue. With this build, you'll have Epic Dodge, the Weapon Specialization feats, the 1d20 base unarmed damage and UMD. All of which are crucial. No HiPS, but with monk speed, that is rather unnecessary as you can very easily corner-sneak anyway. I will just copy what I suggested to someone else in an earlier thread:

[Questions]

[Answers]

-

As an alternative to your build, I would suggest 16 monk/10 rogue/4 fighter. This way, you can nab Weapon Specialization + Epic Weapon Specialization for an extra 6 damage per hit which, for a monk especially, is a lot. To still be able to take 10 rogue levels for Epic Dodge, you'd have to keep it at 4 fighter levels, meaning you will not be able to have that extra attack per round (4th fighter level needs to be taken in epic [for the two Weapon Specialization feats]), but I think it is still definitely worth it. Taking all 4 fighter levels in epic even grants you another epic bonus feat, which may be spent on Epic Prowess, for example. The 16 monk levels still give you the highest damage from monk possible, 1d20.

"But what about the damage reduction, mind immunity and glowing eyes?"

Well, the damage reduction is worthless, I can tell you. It merely grants resistance against unenchanted weapons, which only low-level enemies have. As an epic monk, you would be able to easily beat those, with or without the damage reduction.

The mind immunity you can fix by popping a clarity potion (it is that easy), [...] Besides, a monk has high saves by themselves already, combined with a relatively high Wisdom modifier, and the Still Mind feat.

The glowing eyes, I've always thought to be disadvantageous rather than awesome, because they give away your character's alignment immediately.

If you want me to work out this build for you, shoot me a PM.