Blackguard build

[PresidentCthulhu]

I'm working on a blackguard build for one of my friends. I was tinkering a bit with the classes. He plans to use a great sword (despite it being not meta). I have came up with the following below, please let me know how livable would it be for him:

Race: Drow
Abilities: Str 17, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 10 (+7 Str advances)
Gifts: Melee Magthere
Levels: Fighter 1-7, Blackguard 8-17, Fighter 18, Weapon master 19-25, Blackguard 26-28, Fighter 29-30

Feats
1 Knockdown, Weapon focus (Greatsword)
2 Dodge
3 Mobility
4 Weapon spec (Greatsword)
6 Power attack, Cleave
9 Improved knockdown
12 Expertise
15 Blind fighting
18 Spring attack, Whirlwind attack
21 Epic weapon focus (Greatsword)
24 Epic weapon spec (Greatsword)
27 Epic prowess
28 Epic fiendish servant
30 Armored skin
30 GSF: Discipline

Skills
1-7 Discipline (10), Hide (5), Heal (10), Tumble (5)
8-17 Intimidate (4), Discipline (20), Hide (5), Heal (20), Tumble (10), Taunt (6)
18 Discipline (21), Heal (21), Intimidate (4), Hide (5), Tumble (10), Taunt (6)
19-25 Discipline (28), Heal (28), Intimidate (4), Hide (5), Tumble (14), Taunt (6)
26-30 Discipline (33), Heal (33), Intimidate (4), Hide (5), Tumble (16), Taunt (20)

[Meliboeus]

Unfortunately the build above doesn't work as you need at least 15 Blackguard levels to get Epic Fiendish servant (otherwise we'd all be playing 17 Bard / 13 BG builds).

Also you really should consider adding Rogue or Bard to the build for UMD / Tumble / Spellcraft (last one arguable).

I think this is part of the reason why BG 16 / Fighter 11 / Rogue or Bard 3 is popular. The other reasons being fighter bonuses and feats. Remember, take the rogue or bard at levels 25 to 27.

Edit: Would he consider using a Bastard Sword so he has the option to two hand or use a shield as necessary?

[yellowcateyes]

It's a bit of a waste to get 7 WM but not Improved Critical. You can drop Imp. Knockdown for it.

As noted, you can't get Epic Fiendish Servant on that level spread. Fiend-summoning on cooldown is a major part the current Blackguard, so your friend will be missing out on a core class feature.

I'd consider dropping WM completely. That will solve tight feat issues and give you the freedom to get enough Blackguard levels to have solid fiend summons. If your friend is really fond of that combination of classes, though, consider going Kensai as you won't have access to UMD anyways.

[PresidentCthulhu]

I was considering to recommend dual wield to him, but when I dropped the ranger from the build it just didn't happen. Can you please send me one that is considered viable for a dual wield ranger type blackguard? The ranger/blackguard/rogue for example sounds something that is good. I assume it needs to have 15 levels of BG since the point of the build would be that class and the summon is a big part of it (also it is mostly a damage build so I think it would make soloing less painful when it has to happen).

Thanks!

[Baron Saturday]

To be picky: Epic Fiendish Servant actually requires 16 BG levels, despite what the feat prereqs say, because it can only be taken as a BG bonus feat. Thus if you REALLY wanted to go WM, the best spread would be something like 7 Fighter/7 WM/16 BG.

However! Given that you're already sacrificing 3 AC from Tumble, losing UMD as well also sounds like a baaaaad idea. I don't see this build being able to do much soloing, really. The 16 BG/11 Fighter/3 Rogue or Bard build has already been suggested, which is fairly solid, though I don't particularly like holding off until late epics for a critical class to come into play, as it can make leveling a pain.

For a slightly more support character that's still melee-capable, you might try 14 Bard/16 BG. Feats could be kinda tight, but level 14 bard song is at least decent, and the leveling process should be a bit more consistent. 12/8 or 10/10 split pre-epic gets you the same BAB, so on balance I'd do the 10/10 and take BG for 21-26 to get the Epic Fiendish Servant ASAP. And! If you take Carpentry, you get access to some amazing craftable instruments, including the Ollamh Harp (Mass Haste, Mass Charm, and Summon Creature 6, all 1/day).

I'm also going to second Meliboeus's bastard sword suggestion.

[Astral]

There are several approaches you can take here. first, you can go cha heavy and give up some con and invest in divine might - Then, you got a WM with stupid high dps and an epic fiend to tank for you. go kensai of course since you don't have UMD anyway. It's a very nice strategy imo.

Another approach would be to throw away the WM and go cha heavy, with rogue dip and UMd, as mentioned above by others. You'll have like... 9d6 sneak in total I think. It's pretty good for a melee build. You take a greatsword and divine might and sneak while your summon is tanking. Also disgusting damage.

TL:DR, I think the best use for a BG is to go cha heavy and focus on DPS because your summon can help you tank stuff. And you definitely want the saves you get from cha if you don't take UMD class.

[Peppermint]

Let's please not troll the new players, guys.

The key strength of a standard BG build is its inherent tankiness. Divine Shield pushes you into nigh unhittable territory in PvE (and holds up pretty well in PvP, too). The most optimal direction for a Fighter 11/BG 16/Rogue 3 BG is sword and board. If you really want to play two-hander shenanigans, go bastard sword for -twohand functionality (though I still recommend scimitar).

You don't want to invest more than 16 CHA (i.e. 14 + gift). Any more, and you lose out on AB in exchange for situational AC. This trade off is not worth it, especially since your AB is only in the middling range to begin with.

As for the Ranger/Blackguard/Rogue combination (mentioned by the OP), it's difficult to do. Ranger needs at least 21 levels for Bane of Enemies to be useful. Blackguard, as mentioned, needs 16 levels for Epic Fiendish Servant. Blackguard dips are doable (e.g. Ranger 23/Blackguard 4/Rogue 3) for Divine Might and Divine Shield, though you'd be plenty attribute-starved, considering you'd need some WIS for Ranger spells and some CHA for the Blackguard boons. Read: not ideal, do not recommend.

Fighter 11/Blackguard 16/Rogue 3 really is the ideal split for a dedicated Blackguard, and plays similarly to the build listed in the original post. You could also go Fighter 23/Blackguard 4/Rogue 3 if you prefer a bit more melee potency at the cost of summons. I prefer the former build, but YMMV.

[Astral]

Not trolling at all. Kensai bg is super fun, great in pve and personally worked for me in pvp as it has really nice saves (except reflex but the perma-freedom covers that for the most part) and a summon to help out if you're outnumbered. Now you can even drink haste potions and get another free apr. I think kensai bg is lit. Not trolling at all.

[Aero Silver]

I love reading about helpful builds.
Would you recommend a stealth BG build please?

[Astral]

I love reading about helpful builds.
Would you recommend a stealth BG build please?

I'd look into 10 monk 4 rogue, 16 bg. with or without cha but definitely dex based. The damage should be crazy when sneaking and more than enough for a monk when tanking, ab will be average for a monk and ac will be below average for a monk but with divine shield and an epic fiend to help out tanking.

[Meliboeus]

Would 17 BG / 13 Rogue be viable? Dex / Cha so nullifies the usual problem of low-saves. Plenty of d10 HD for HP. Epic Dodge. And excellent sneak damage. The summons also gives the rogue PC plenty to play around to create opportunities to sneak.

I suppose the weakness is *maybe* AB...?

I might have missed something. I haven't tried to stat it.

Edit: The problem may be feats I suppose, esp if you dual-wield.

[Peppermint]

A bit feat-starved, yeah. You could maybe make it work as a rapier/large shield parry build, or drop divine might/divine shield, but either way, the result wouldn't be entirely optimal. Probably playable, though.

If you absolutely insist on playing a DEX-based blackguard, your best bet is probably just to splash BG levels into a rogue build, e.g. Fighter 10/Rogue 16/Blackguard 4. Mind, you'd probably be better off just playing a kama-wielding rogue, but it is what it is.

[Aero Silver]

I'd look into 10 monk 4 rogue, 16 bg. with or without cha but definitely dex based. The damage should be crazy when sneaking and more than enough for a monk when tanking, ab will be average for a monk and ac will be below average for a monk but with divine shield and an epic fiend to help out tanking.

Can this qualify for Epic Dodge? Maybe substitute the 4 Rogue for 5 SD?

[DragonRiderCyric]

Do blackguards do better with shield and sword or can a good two handed with an axe be pvp playable?

Also odd topic but how does detect evil work? What's the saves against be found out as a black hearted villian?

[Baron Saturday]

I'd look into 10 monk 4 rogue, 16 bg. with or without cha but definitely dex based. The damage should be crazy when sneaking and more than enough for a monk when tanking, ab will be average for a monk and ac will be below average for a monk but with divine shield and an epic fiend to help out tanking.

Can this qualify for Epic Dodge? Maybe substitute the 4 Rogue for 5 SD?

You could do 9 monk/5 SD/16 BG. No UMD, so you might as well take kensai. Pre-epic, 8 monk/4 SD/8 BG or 8/2/10 nets you the best BAB. Big issue with this build is that you need every stat. It suffers from MAD like crazy. Str for damage, Dex for AB/AC, con for HP, int for skills, Wis for AC, Cha for saves. Fortunately BG bull's strength stacks with potions, which takes some of the pressure off.

[Aero Silver]

Thanks for the good suggestion.

But why is Strength useful for a Dex based BG with Weapon Finesse?

Then again, it sounds like Epic Dodge is unattainable for Dex based BG.

[Baron Saturday]

Thanks for the good suggestion.

But why is Strength useful for a Dex based BG with Weapon Finesse?

Then again, it sounds like Epic Dodge is unattainable for Dex based BG.

Since this build has no fighter levels and thus no weapon specialization, you need another source of damage output. Having a billion APR doesn't matter if you only do 10 damage, especially in epic levels where enemies are more likely to have damage reduction.

[High Primate]

Let's please not troll the new players, guys.

The key strength of a standard BG build is its inherent tankiness. Divine Shield pushes you into nigh unhittable territory in PvE (and holds up pretty well in PvP, too). The most optimal direction for a Fighter 11/BG 16/Rogue 3 BG is sword and board.

This. Even better if you can fit Overwhelming Critical on it (which should be fairly easy).