New player seeking help on Bard build

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calisto
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New player seeking help on Bard build

Post by calisto » Sat Sep 02, 2017 1:08 am

Hello, I started playing on this server 3 days ago and I really like it. I've tried making a few characters and I think I want to settle on a Bard. I looked at the forums and people talk about level 30 characters and Bards actually being decent at combat, what a surprise !

I would like some advice on building my Bard, I mainly want to assist my group in battle with buffs, but also defend myself like those posts say. I have in mind to put levels in Harper Scout because I like that direction in the RP.

What kind of builds can I make to handle battle and assist my partners after casting my spells ?
Is there any point getting Bluff/Persuade skills on this server ?
Are the 'Mark of Destiny' and 'Sign of Humility' good ideas for leveling faster ?

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Baron Saturday
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Re: New player seeking help on Bard build

Post by Baron Saturday » Sat Sep 02, 2017 4:46 am

I would really not suggest taking either mark of destiny or mark of humility as a new player. Yes, they will help you level faster, but as someone who doesn't know the server well, you're considerably more likely to find yourself running low on lives before you get to higher levels. Besides, there's a ton of cool dungeons now, take your time, see it all!

Build-wise, I'll point you in the direction of Cortex's wonderful Optimal Good Builds Compendium. Keep in mind that there are mechanical changes to Harper Scout, which can be found on the wiki, and the class requires a DM token.

Hope that helps, and welcome to the server!
Rolled: Helene d'Arque, Sara Lyonall
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Sockss
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Re: New player seeking help on Bard build

Post by Sockss » Sat Sep 02, 2017 11:58 am

"Bardadin" is highly recommended, you can switch up paladin for 'Harper Paragon'.
Thankfully this team is no longer being used.

Sockss#5567 for nwn mechanics questions.

Astral
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Re: New player seeking help on Bard build

Post by Astral » Sat Sep 02, 2017 6:15 pm

I'm under the impression that harper classes should not be recommended for freshly new players, specially not in a building thread. While the paragon gives CL which paladin does not, it's a bloody cancerous class to play if you don't know what you're going in to.
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Re: New player seeking help on Bard build

Post by yellowcateyes » Sat Sep 02, 2017 6:36 pm

Astral wrote:I'm under the impression that harper classes should not be recommended for freshly new players, specially not in a building thread. While the paragon gives CL which paladin does not, it's a bloody cancerous class to play if you don't know what you're going in to.
The new player in question mentioned in the OP that they were interested in Harper RP. I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest Paragon as the path they should think about if they want to do a Bard/Harper.

Is there any reason why playing a Paragon Bardadin is 'bloody cancerous?' The only difference with the paladin version is that you get the divine dip class late, in epic levels. Up until that point, you're a typical Bard/Fighter focused in STR (with a couple spare pre-epic feats tossed at Iron Will and Alertness). That's not a particularly difficult thing to level up.
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Baron Saturday
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Re: New player seeking help on Bard build

Post by Baron Saturday » Sat Sep 02, 2017 6:59 pm

Astral wrote:I'm under the impression that harper classes should not be recommended for freshly new players, specially not in a building thread. While the paragon gives CL which paladin does not, it's a bloody cancerous class to play if you don't know what you're going in to.
Could you list some details about why Paragon is "cancerous"? I'm aware that it needs a .2da file to make the Turn Undead-based abilities work, but what else about it do you find so problematic?
Rolled: Helene d'Arque, Sara Lyonall
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Cuchilla
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Re: New player seeking help on Bard build

Post by Cuchilla » Sat Sep 02, 2017 8:44 pm

Welp, I am prolly gonna be skinned alive going against the canonic advices of a STR bard, and suggest a DEX bard - and go for Epic Dodge! It's expensive, yes. But Epic Dodge is ... Epic Dodge. You get addicted to it.

Abilities:
Go for DEX and CHA

Feats:
Weapon Finess (3). Weapon Focus (6) Lingering Song (9). Blindfight (12). Improved Critical (15). Improved Evasion (18). Greater Dex (21). Defensive Roll (22). Armor Skin (24). Epic Dodge (27). Epic WF (30).

Use light weapons, like rapier. Mace and handaxe are imo underestimated, but that might just be me.

Combine bard with Fighter you get more feats, likewise rogue. The extra feat could be used going Weapon Expertise, Knock Down, or Knock Down, Sneak Attack. On Arelith, you can make lawful bard, and try the interesting bard-monk.

Max out Disc, Tumble. You might choose to go stealthy if you want. Lockpick, trapper, search are good choices.

I never was a very good builder though. So someone is prolly laughing out loud at these sort of builds. The weakness might be counter weighted by the fun you have with them. And I think that it's very difficult to make a very bad bard. The good thing about stealth is that once you get tired of bashing spawns all the time, you can move fast around the server stealthed, and get resources, chests, etc.

Aloise "Lois", Biarray "Ray", Uniethrade. INACTIVE: Ivory Bushdiggger DEAD: Cuchilla. Beliat, Clyasy. Cristyn. Fadriatta. Fraya Stensamler (Chief Librarian). Goirin. Greensleeves. Gwydynya. Hilda. Kaxandra. Trista. Willisa.


yellowcateyes
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Re: New player seeking help on Bard build

Post by yellowcateyes » Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:24 pm

Just keep in mind that going the Epic Dodge route has some steep and specific requirements.

If you are a Dex-based Bard/Rogue/(Fighter), you will need at least 13 Rogue levels to get Epic Dodge. Improved Evasion and Defensive Roll can only be chosen through Rogue feats. (Rogue 10 and Rogue 13).

You also need 25+ unmodified dexterity to qualify for e-dodge. Plan your starting attributes accordingly.

If you're doing the STR route, the builds provided in Baron Saturday's links are a good resource. If you're making a build involving Harper Paragon, run it past a more experienced player to make sure it's valid and level up a test character before you commit. You'll need to seek DM permission to play a Harper Scout, so be prepared to explain your character's story and interest in the organization.

To answer some other questions:
calisto wrote:Is there any point getting Bluff/Persuade skills on this server ?
Persuade offers a slight bonus to the bounties paid out for the heads of wanted mobs. Unless you have RP reasons, it's not a recommended investment.

Bluff is useful as one of the skills used for -disguise. That said, Perform offers similar functionality. As long as you're putting points in Perform as a bard, you don't need Bluff.
calisto wrote:What kind of builds can I make to handle battle and assist my partners after casting my spells ?
As long as you have bard song up, you'll help any adventuring party. Focusing on surviving and holding your own is a perfectly fine contribution as a bard, as your simple existence will make your allies' lives easier.
Dinosaur Space Program is my working partner on Arelith-related projects. If my inbox is full or I take a while to get back to you, feel free to PM them questions or concerns.

Astral
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Re: New player seeking help on Bard build

Post by Astral » Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:36 pm

Baron Saturday wrote:
Astral wrote:I'm under the impression that harper classes should not be recommended for freshly new players, specially not in a building thread. While the paragon gives CL which paladin does not, it's a bloody cancerous class to play if you don't know what you're going in to.
Could you list some details about why Paragon is "cancerous"? I'm aware that it needs a .2da file to make the Turn Undead-based abilities work, but what else about it do you find so problematic?
I don't want to turn this into out of topic argument. I will just say that as discussed before on the forums and agreed by plenty of ex-harper players - the class is hard/impossible to RP properly and usually leads to more frustration than anything. I could be wrong. I will not hold this stand like a dwarven defender, I simply think it is not a class I would recommend a new player who innocently asked for bard build suggestions.
Currently playing: Seth Xylo

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Re: New player seeking help on Bard build

Post by yellowcateyes » Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:47 pm

As an ex-harper player, I wouldn't classify Harper RP as particularly difficult, let alone impossible. Nor was it frustrating. Again, the OP specifically asked about combining Harper Scout with Bard. They should get an honest answer as to the merits of the combination, particularly in a forum called 'Builds and Mechanics.'
Dinosaur Space Program is my working partner on Arelith-related projects. If my inbox is full or I take a while to get back to you, feel free to PM them questions or concerns.

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Baron Saturday
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Re: New player seeking help on Bard build

Post by Baron Saturday » Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:52 pm

Astral wrote:I don't want to turn this into out of topic argument. I will just say that as discussed before on the forums and agreed by plenty of ex-harper players - the class is hard/impossible to RP properly and usually leads to more frustration than anything. I could be wrong. I will not hold this stand like a dwarven defender, I simply think it is not a class I would recommend a new player who innocently asked for bard build suggestions.
So your issues with it are related to RP rather than mechanics? Gotcha, all I needed to know.
Rolled: Helene d'Arque, Sara Lyonall
Shelved: Kels Vetian, Cin ys'Andalis, Saul Haidt
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Peppermint
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Re: New player seeking help on Bard build

Post by Peppermint » Mon Sep 04, 2017 1:25 am

Please don't make a DEX-based bard unless you actively hate yourself. Bards don't have any innate melee damage scaling (unless you count bard song, which is pretty meager for it). You won't do any damage as a DEX bard.

Harper Paragon is certainly a viable way to go, though. STR-based, but grab 16 CHA for spells and a decent Divine Might/Divine Shield. Sword and board, all the usual melee feats. Grab still spell for plate.

Played a Harper once. Didn't find it particularly difficult. YMMV, I guess.

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Cuchilla
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Re: New player seeking help on Bard build

Post by Cuchilla » Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:37 am

Peppermint wrote:Please don't make a DEX-based bard unless you actively hate yourself.
I confess, I confess: I hate myself! Actively ...

:D

Aloise "Lois", Biarray "Ray", Uniethrade. INACTIVE: Ivory Bushdiggger DEAD: Cuchilla. Beliat, Clyasy. Cristyn. Fadriatta. Fraya Stensamler (Chief Librarian). Goirin. Greensleeves. Gwydynya. Hilda. Kaxandra. Trista. Willisa.


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Diegovog
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Re: New player seeking help on Bard build

Post by Diegovog » Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:49 am

As I currently play a bardadin, I don't recommend it to new players, because:

Itemization is incredibly difficult. Most of your items should have str/char, making it really difficult to have a decent HP unless you get really lucky with artifacts or really good runic magical gear with str/cha/cons. Also need Discipline (and hopefully taunt/perform) since your bard song won't compensate enough the lack of Epic Skill Focus Discipline.
You only get to feel a difference in your charisma bonus on Divine Shield and Divine Might when you hit the +6 threshold, then you get a decent duration and worthy bonus. But before you get to that you have to choose very wisely when to use either abilities often leading to "UGH I should have used it!". And even though they are pretty amazing, they leave you flatfooted for that moment you're trying to use them. Also, before you get Lasting Inspiration (or at least bard level 15+) you have to choose well when to use the bard songs so you don't run out as they are very short.
Highly dependent on wards and very very easily dispelled. Basically any and every enemy in the server that can dispel you, will.
Very very feat starved build. One mistake when picking them can ruin a lot on the long run.

I advise it only if you're really in for the RP. The huge perform makes it great to disguise. Access to Legend Lore spell + Bardic Lore makes understanding languages that you had no idea that existed, a piece of cake.
And is has the best support ability in the game, bard song/curse song (AND improved invisibility/haste spells!). Because of that everyone will want your help. So guarding someone, activating Improved Expertise will lead to some great group compositions!

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Opustus
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Re: New player seeking help on Bard build

Post by Opustus » Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:20 pm

Be the fairest of all bards and dazzle your audiences with LEVEL30BARD!!! *twinkling neon lights*

Endgame abilities: 14 INT, CON, DEX; 18 CHA; 8 WIS (whenever was a bard wise? It's a total buzzkill); rest into STR.
--> CHA18 with +12 statted gear gets you another slot for level 6 spells, which is sweet sweet Mass Haste.

Gifts: Gift of Stardom (minor, +6 perform), because you're the only real star round these parts of the powerchording Pally/Bard town.

Pre-epic feats: Knockdown, Martial or Exotic weapon focus (if human), Extend spell, Weapon focus, Improved knockdown, Maximize spell, Curse song, Blindfight

Epic feats: Epic weapon focus, Lasting winspiration (on bard23), Armorskin, Epic skill focus: Perform (on bard26), Optional, Optional. Bard level 29 feat can be spent on Great Charisma, so it's advised to round up your CHA to 18 with it.

Skills: Max Discipline, Perform, Spellcraft, Concentration; Tumble30, 1 point into Open lock, Set trap, Disable trap. The rest is up to taste, but good considerations are Listen, Taunt, and Move silently and Hide.

How to push Perform up to 100?
-Rank33, Epic skill focus 10, CHA mod 10, Gift of Stardom (=59)
-Arts crafting: Ruby necklace +5, Crafting: Golden crown +3, Carpentry: Ten foot pole +5 (=13)
EDIT: Blue-suede boots and Gloves of the singer with Tailoring both give +5, so...
-Craft onto gear the remainder of 18, which I am not sure if is possible with the current module.

*flees terrified before comments hail down about trollpost and memebuild*
Characters: all poor babies suffering from neglect

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Peppermint
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Re: New player seeking help on Bard build

Post by Peppermint » Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:13 am

If you're going pure support bard, you may as well go CON-based and be a functional tank. You're not going to do any meaningful damage even if you invest in STR.

Spaniardl
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Re: New player seeking help on Bard build

Post by Spaniardl » Mon Sep 25, 2017 5:59 pm

Try a pure bard or at least 25 levels to get a +6 ac song. The nice thing about bards is that they don't need any other class.
Having a high caster level is very important to your buffs actually stay on your friends and dont get dispelled easily.

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gilescorey
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Re: New player seeking help on Bard build

Post by gilescorey » Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:18 am

Peppermint wrote:If you're going pure support bard, you may as well go CON-based and be a functional tank. You're not going to do any meaningful damage even if you invest in STR.
This. Also take a mild dip into paladin/blackguard for giga-saves and AC. It's boring asf to play unless you want to do anything other than make the game a breeze for anyone in your party, but it's reallyx100 strong.

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Peppermint
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Re: New player seeking help on Bard build

Post by Peppermint » Tue Sep 26, 2017 4:26 am

It's strong, yeah, though I'd argue that a standard bardadin is stronger. You don't get much more in the way of support for the investment (i.e. +1 AC, a bit more on skills), but lose the ability to contribute in melee completely.

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gilescorey
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Re: New player seeking help on Bard build

Post by gilescorey » Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:11 am

It's not really the buff that's better, it's that you're kind of just immune to death; it isn't tough to fit GSF: Abjuration on that kinda build for IGMS immunity, on top of being, well, CON-based with EDR making you stupid-tough to tear down.

It's not immortal, but it's a lot of effort to tear one apart when he's got friends along. And with this kind of build, his whole point is having those friends.

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