Monk-cleric?

[Gulddrengen]

I'm fiddling with a monk-cleric build, something like 21cleric/6monk/3rogue, dex-based and with a quarterstaff. The idea is to mainly fight like an agile fighter cleric, using haste and improved invisibility. Anyone have any input on this or any experiences to share?

Right now I'm looking to go 8 str, 18 dex, 8 con, 16 int, 8 cha, 18 wis, getting wis to 19 and then putting the rest into dex and relying on buffing my str and con, but not sure how viable that is, they seem pretty low to me.

[Nitro]

8 CON is definitely too low for a melee character, you'll want to trade away some of that INT and possibly DEX for some extra CON, otherwise your HP is just going to be too low to permit any misstakes.

[Gulddrengen]

Yeah. But with empowered endurance it will look a lot better. Until I get dispelled.

[Nitro]

When you get dispelled indeed, with just 21 caster levels, you're going to be pretty easy to dispel, by mobs and especially focused abjurers, which will leave you at a dangerous place when it comes to your stats.

[Gulddrengen]

Yes. Con is going up. Also wondering about the strength, and the build overall, afraid the damage output will be very low.

[Astral]

Human
STR: 10
DEX: 10
CON: 16
WIS: 15 (22)
INT: 14
CHA: 10

01: Cleric(1): sf conjuration, gsf conjuration, Domain Travel, Domain Trickery
02: Cleric(2)
03: Cleric(3): extend spell
04: Cleric(4): WIS+1, (WIS=16)
05: Cleric(5)
06: Cleric(6): sf evocation
07: Cleric(7)
08: Cleric(8): WIS+1, (WIS=17)
09: Cleric(9): gsf evocation
10: Cleric(10)
11: Cleric(11)
12: Cleric(12): WIS+1, two-weapon fighting, (WIS=18)
13: Cleric(13)
14: Cleric(14)
15: Cleric(15): imp crit
16: Cleric(16): WIS+1, (WIS=19)
17: Cleric(17)
18: Monk(1): blind fight, {Cleave, Evasion, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist}
19: Monk(2): {Deflect Arrows}
20: Monk(3): WIS+1, (WIS=20)
21: Cleric(18): epic weapon focus
22: Cleric(19)
23: Cleric(20)
24: Cleric(21): WIS+1, EDK, (WIS=21)
25: Cleric(22)
26: Cleric(23): Epic Spell Focus: Conjuration
27: Cleric(24): greater ruin
28: Cleric(25): WIS+1, (WIS=22)
29: Monk(4)
30: Cleric(26): hellball, Greater Spell Focus: Evocation

Now, this build is quite "cheese" but it could be a lot more cheese. It has no gifts at all and it was made when evocation was a lot different and there wasn't healer path. In today's meta, if I wanted to cheese it the hardest I can, I would go healer, replace anything to do with evocation with combat feats (IE, epic discipline, armor skin, etc etc) and maybe even go con/cha heavy with divine might/shield but it might be an overkill.

[Gulddrengen]

Good idea with the healer path. Though stronger your suggested build is a caster cleric build, I had hoped to be more effective with the staff. Maybe some compromise. I'd also still prefer to get the extra 10% movement speed from 6 monk, preferably getting 3 monk early, and if possible the rogue skills, though probably too costly. At least that was part of the character concept I had in mind.

[Commie]

If you're going dex monk consider "healer."

Secondly, with dex this means you need more stats then the typical cleric. Consider war domain over travel. Haste is good, but with war you get cats grace and aura of vitality, which is minutes a level at epic focus transmutation. This is nine dex you no longer need to gear for, plus more con and str, for you and your summons.

Haste is good, but you'll, imo, get more use out of war, and not have a hyper crowded fifth level spell level to deal with, as you won't need to fit max stat buffs and haste and imp invis.

[High Primate]

How is this build going to do any meaningful damage? That's probably my main question, since you specify in your post that you want this build to be useful in melee. Dexterity-based clerics are, unfortunately, terrible; they basically excel at nothing, as dexterity simply does not help a battlecleric be, well, a battlecleric, which requires strength for both damage output and passingly viable discipline.

If you want to play a caster cleric that's dexterity based, that's a ~bit~ more viable, especially using Harm in PvE--but even that has problems, as you have to sacrifice cleric levels for monk levels to get extra AC, assuming you're using a quarterstaff. But the build in the original post will be very weak, and a cleric cannot take on a useful melee role if it does not invest in strength. I also don't recommend the other build in this thread. It is essentially a caster cleric without UMD, and UMD is important, especially since caster clerics are already somewhat weaker that a lot of other builds in the meta both in PvP and PvE. In PvP, for instance (an unfortunate circumstance that can befall any character), you will have no way to strip away defenses that make other people immune to your spells. (That's just one disadvantage to not taking UMD; there are many more, like not being able to use a lot of wands and scrolls that are situationally important for things like maxing out your AC or giving yourself damage reduction.) The build is made worse by its mediocre wisdom score, which means fewer spells with lower DCs.

tl;dr: there's really no build of the kind you're looking for that isn't either mediocre or badly gimped, because dex-clerics are bad. Play one if you want, but be ready for some frustrating experiences especially at later levels. This is just a sober warning so that you know what you are getting into, should you so choose.

[Astral]

How is this build going to do any meaningful damage? That's probably my main question, since you specify in your post that you want this build to be useful in melee. Dexterity-based clerics are, unfortunately, terrible; they basically excel at nothing, as dexterity simply does not help a battlecleric be, well, a battlecleric, which requires strength for both damage output and passingly viable discipline.

If you want to play a caster cleric that's dexterity based, that's a ~bit~ more viable, especially using Harm in PvE--but even that has problems, as you have to sacrifice cleric levels for monk levels to get extra AC, assuming you're using a quarterstaff. But the build in the original post will be very weak, and a cleric cannot take on a useful melee role if it does not invest in strength. I also don't recommend the other build in this thread. It is essentially a caster cleric without UMD, and UMD is important, especially since caster clerics are already somewhat weaker that a lot of other builds in the meta both in PvP and PvE. In PvP, for instance (an unfortunate circumstance that can befall any character), you will have no way to strip away defenses that make other people immune to your spells. (That's just one disadvantage to not taking UMD; there are many more, like not being able to use a lot of wands and scrolls that are situationally important for things like maxing out your AC or giving yourself damage reduction.) The build is made worse by its mediocre wisdom score, which means fewer spells with lower DCs.

tl;dr: there's really no build of the kind you're looking for that isn't either mediocre or badly gimped, because dex-clerics are bad. Play one if you want, but be ready for some frustrating experiences especially at later levels. This is just a sober warning so that you know what you are getting into, should you so choose.

It's not that bad. healer path will make it actually immortal even without umd and it does reach 45+ ab from several spells, without any investment in str or dex. clerics man.

[Commie]

Yeah if you're doing a monk build you may as well just be a healer so you get wisdom to things.

You can also go monk 6, give up a little CL, but get KD and IKD for free (and more movespeed) freeing up some pre-epic feats which can be important as a cleric. 4 monk pre-epic might be in order.

Remember you can take 'epic spell foci' on a monk level so you may want to plan around taking monk at 30 for that last point of discipline.

[Gulddrengen]

I don't need it to be a power build, just reasonable. I don't make a monk-cleric because I think it's the best but because it fits the roleplay concept I have in mind and because I think its features will be fun to play with.

Will go healer and try to get 6 monk levels pressed in, and think I will take stats along the lines of (with gifts);
STR: 16
DEX: 12
CON: 14
WIS: 16
INT: 14
CHA: 10

Clerics only use charisma for turn undead right?

[Astral]

Good idea with the healer path. Though stronger your suggested build is a caster cleric build, I had hoped to be more effective with the staff. Maybe some compromise. I'd also still prefer to get the extra 10% movement speed from 6 monk, preferably getting 3 monk early, and if possible the rogue skills, though probably too costly. At least that was part of the character concept I had in mind.

In this sub-forum we attempt to help players optimize whatever is possible to optimize within the concept they are looking for. But if you're interested entirely in a RP focused build then really no point asking for building advice.

Just for the sake of it, though, I'd recommend you take 18 cleric lvls and then start monk, to optimize your base saves. The character build will still be the same, just with better saves. And turn undead uses cleric lvl + some variation of the cha modifier, not the cha mod itself.

[Gulddrengen]

Of course, trying to optimize as much as possible within the concept, my last post was mainly a reply to High Primate, that I knew there were better ways to build a cleric. And I appreciate the pointers.

[Peppermint]

I wouldn't make a 10 DEX dual-wielder. That's kind of a meme.

Look, I'll be frank. This build is going to be mediocre whatever you do. But some thoughts:

1. A decent stat spread for you is probably something like STR 8, DEX 15, CON 14, WIS 16, INT 14, CHA 8. Take DEX and WIS gifts. Bump WIS to 20 through level ups, put the rest into DEX.
2. You could consider War as one of your domains (e.g. Travel/War). This nets you Cat's Grace and Aura of Vitality, which will help with itemization a lot. Even consider going GSF: Transmutation if you go this route for the lengthier Aura of Vitality. ESF: Transmutation is probably not necessary, since a single extended Aura of Vitality will already last over 13 minutes with GSF: Transmutation.
3. Cleric 23/Fighter 4/Monk 3 is the spread that will probably result in the best overall damage (i.e. Epic Weapon Specialization) and the least feat starvation. No UMD, which sucks. But should be all right in PvE.
4. Your feat basics (in no particular order): Ambidexterity, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Blind Fight, Toughness, Extend Spell, Improved Critical: Quarterstaff, Weapon Finesse, Epic Weapon Focus: Quarterstaff, Epic Skill Focus: Discipline. You could consider trying to squeeze in Epic Spell: Dragon Knight and/or GSF: Conjuration as well. You'll probably be too feat-starved for combat feats such as Knockdown and Expertise.

Ultimately, you're incredibly feat-starved and very dispellable to boot, with less combat capability than a standard battlecleric. But it's what you asked for, and that's probably the best you're going to get within those parameters.

Playable? Probably. Optimal? Certainly not.

[Astral]

I kinda like Peppermint's suggestions. However, I'd consider neglecting off-hand ab and APR at all. With quarter staff and divine power you'll still have 8 attacks with just your primary hand so I'm under the impression you can throw away any AB related feats except two-weapon fighting (which essentially raises your right-hand ab back to what it would be if you were just an unarmed monk with no feats) and then you can use these 3 extra pre-epic feats for more important stuff.

And I wouldn't take war domain unless I got enough cha to make use of the ability. instead, you can take animal domain which will give cat's and better summons. Travel should stay.

[Gulddrengen]

Sounds like it might become too frustrating. Maybe I should just go with the caster cleric and healer path.

[Peppermint]

You'd probably be far better off if you went unarmed, honestly. Still not a great build by any stretch, but at least you wouldn't suffer from feat starvation.