Damask vs Greensteel and Kukri vs Katana

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Bjorn Blue Tiger
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Damask vs Greensteel and Kukri vs Katana

Post by Bjorn Blue Tiger » Sun Aug 27, 2017 6:12 pm

I have been wondering for some time now, what is the best for a dex character?

Thanks!

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Cortex
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Re: Damask vs Greensteel and Kukri vs Katana

Post by Cortex » Sun Aug 27, 2017 6:43 pm

On non-STR chars I tend to favor katanas over kukris. Not as much damage to critical off from, and not as vulnerable to disarms.

Same for damask VS GSteel, I learn toward damask over gsteel on DEXers with the exception of DEX WMs. However, MDamask trumps all.
:)

TimeAdept
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Re: Damask vs Greensteel and Kukri vs Katana

Post by TimeAdept » Sun Aug 27, 2017 6:59 pm

With Katanas being as they are on this server, I don't think a Kukri has relevance to anyone besides a small race to dual weild or a weaponmaster. Every other character is better served by the extra base damage. If they're not dual weilding, the katana is just better in every way.

I don't think Greensteel weapons are relevant to any weapon that isn't scimitar, rapier, Kukri, or a Scythe WM.

These assumptions are not made with any hard math behind them whatsoever save my experiences with the game, crit ranges, and the general approach to the game people have. Greensteel to me definitely comes off as a pretty hard sell, but ACs on this server also seem a bit higher for monsters, so critting on a 13 or 14 as a WM is less appealing when its less likely that your attacks will hit on the 13 or 14 anyways.

In short:
Kukri It Up: Extreme Strength WMs, Dual Weilding Shortstuffs
Katana It Up: Probably Everyone Else
Greensteel It Up: Scim/rapier/kukri/scythe WM, Extreme Strength WMs
Damask It Up: Probably Everyone Else

n.b. i am playing a rogue twf so my ab is Snuggybear GARBAGE also i have a tendency to do content meant much higher than my levle for the sake of being able to do it so my assertation here is likely Pufferfish wrong.

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gilescorey
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Re: Damask vs Greensteel and Kukri vs Katana

Post by gilescorey » Sun Aug 27, 2017 7:10 pm

TimeAdept wrote:These assumptions are not made with any hard math behind them whatsoever
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

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Jack Oat
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Re: Damask vs Greensteel and Kukri vs Katana

Post by Jack Oat » Sun Aug 27, 2017 7:22 pm

If you are dual-wielding, do kukris. If you are single-wielding, do Rapier. Katanas are a meme gone wrong. Mathematically an 18-20x2 weapon will always be superior to the katana's 19-20x2 crit range until you get into silly amounts of base damage that don't exist in this game.

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Cortex
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Re: Damask vs Greensteel and Kukri vs Katana

Post by Cortex » Sun Aug 27, 2017 7:30 pm

Damage wise kukri is better, but it should be noted kukri wielders get +8 AB against them from 2-handed wielders, while katana wielders get +4 bonus against them. And kukris can also be pick pocketted.
:)

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Re: Damask vs Greensteel and Kukri vs Katana

Post by Astral » Sun Aug 27, 2017 8:21 pm

Cortex wrote:Damage wise kukri is better, but it should be noted kukri wielders get +8 AB against them from 2-handed wielders, while katana wielders get +4 bonus against them.
I didn't know that. And I don't completely understand why. I guess it's related to weapon size but even then both katana and kukri are categorized as Tiny, right? So my question why?
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Cortex
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Re: Damask vs Greensteel and Kukri vs Katana

Post by Cortex » Sun Aug 27, 2017 8:22 pm

Katana is small.
:)

TimeAdept
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Re: Damask vs Greensteel and Kukri vs Katana

Post by TimeAdept » Sun Aug 27, 2017 8:22 pm

gilescorey wrote:
TimeAdept wrote:These assumptions are not made with any hard math behind them whatsoever
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
hey fam im just bein honest.

I ignored rapier because the discussion was between kukri and katana. Rapier is obviously the best in a non dual weild situation, yeah.

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Re: Damask vs Greensteel and Kukri vs Katana

Post by Astral » Sun Aug 27, 2017 8:25 pm

Cortex wrote:Katana is small.
So if you attack someone with a greatsword vs katana (large vs small) the greatsword wielder gets free 4 ab and greatsword vs kukri gets 8? It's a lot.
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Cortex
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Re: Damask vs Greensteel and Kukri vs Katana

Post by Cortex » Sun Aug 27, 2017 8:26 pm

Astral wrote:
Cortex wrote:Katana is small.
So if you attack someone with a greatsword vs katana (large vs small) the greatsword wielder gets free 4 ab and greatsword vs kukri gets 8? It's a lot.
If they use improved disarm, yes.
:)

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Re: Damask vs Greensteel and Kukri vs Katana

Post by Astral » Sun Aug 27, 2017 8:30 pm

Cortex wrote:
Astral wrote:
Cortex wrote:Katana is small.
So if you attack someone with a greatsword vs katana (large vs small) the greatsword wielder gets free 4 ab and greatsword vs kukri gets 8? It's a lot.
If they use improved disarm, yes.
oh that makes a lot more sense, I thought it's a bonus to ab vs the target's ac, not it's discipline check. So yeah now the numbers feel more realistic. thanks.
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Cortex
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Re: Damask vs Greensteel and Kukri vs Katana

Post by Cortex » Sun Aug 27, 2017 8:31 pm

Astral wrote:
oh that makes a lot more sense, I thought it's a bonus to ab vs the target's ac, not it's discipline check. So yeah now the numbers feel more realistic. thanks.
It's AB bonus if using any disarm, it's not like KD that its just discipline.

You get +-AB depending on weapon size
:)

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Re: Damask vs Greensteel and Kukri vs Katana

Post by Astral » Sun Aug 27, 2017 8:39 pm

Cortex wrote: It's AB bonus if using any disarm, it's not like KD that its just discipline.

You get +-AB depending on weapon size
Yeah it's a lot more reliable than I thought actually.
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Bjorn Blue Tiger
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Re: Damask vs Greensteel and Kukri vs Katana

Post by Bjorn Blue Tiger » Sun Aug 27, 2017 9:01 pm

Thank you for all the answers.

In the case the character is dual-wielding? And that he is a spellsword (+int damage, +imbue weapon damage)? Greensteel kukris become an interesting choice, no?

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Cortex
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Re: Damask vs Greensteel and Kukri vs Katana

Post by Cortex » Sun Aug 27, 2017 9:02 pm

I haven't looked into spellsword enough to give you insight on that.

MDamask is superior to Gsteel, and if you want better DPS go kukri, if you want better safety from pick pocket and disarms, go katana.
:)

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Aero Silver
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Re: Damask vs Greensteel and Kukri vs Katana

Post by Aero Silver » Mon Aug 28, 2017 7:59 pm

I realize that this may have been asked before, but for someone who uses Improved Disarm, isn't Masterly Steel better than Greensteel due to the bonus in AB?
All articles that coruscate with resplendence are not truly auriferous. Meaning: all that glitters ain't gold.

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Re: Damask vs Greensteel and Kukri vs Katana

Post by yellowcateyes » Mon Aug 28, 2017 8:07 pm

Aero Silver wrote:I realize that this may have been asked before, but for someone who uses Improved Disarm, isn't Masterly Steel better than Greensteel due to the bonus in AB?
If you want to keep a weapon for maximizing AB on disarm attempts, you're best off using a GMW scroll on bronze.
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Cortex
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Re: Damask vs Greensteel and Kukri vs Katana

Post by Cortex » Mon Aug 28, 2017 8:11 pm

Masterly Steel is also only +2 AB, greensteel is +3.
:)

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Aero Silver
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Re: Damask vs Greensteel and Kukri vs Katana

Post by Aero Silver » Mon Aug 28, 2017 8:13 pm

OK. I stand corrected.
All articles that coruscate with resplendence are not truly auriferous. Meaning: all that glitters ain't gold.

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Re: Damask vs Greensteel and Kukri vs Katana

Post by Aero Silver » Mon Aug 28, 2017 9:20 pm

One last question, i promise.

For a Dex character, doesn't Greensteel give a penalty to Hide and MS?
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Cortex
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Re: Damask vs Greensteel and Kukri vs Katana

Post by Cortex » Mon Aug 28, 2017 9:21 pm

Unequip during stealth.
:)

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Seekeepeek
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Re: Damask vs Greensteel and Kukri vs Katana

Post by Seekeepeek » Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:15 am

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Spot

-10 DC at night if the target has a light source on them.

yeah. having an active light source is bad for you as a Ninja.

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Memelord
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Re: Damask vs Greensteel and Kukri vs Katana

Post by Memelord » Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:48 am

Well, I'll presume you're a L13 (full BAB, for the purposes of math) - let's say 18 DEX to start (up to 21 from leveling, +7 from gear [28], +4 from potion [32] - for a grand total of +11 DEX mod) and, eh. 14 STR, why not?

4 APR with haste, Weapon Focus and +3 AB from either weapon puts you at +28/+28/+23/+18 AB (+26/+26/+21/+16/+26/+21 if dual wielding with all potential feats), plus weapon spec.; we'll say you're trying to hit something with AC40 for the purposes of having some miss chance. Add on a 1d6 temporary essence for shits and giggles

Single Weapon:
Katana (Damask): 15 dmg/swing on average(1d10+1d6+2+3+2)
Hits AC40 at 60%/60%/20%/0%, with a 20% chance to crit: 15-30 dmg per round [22.5 avg]
Katana (Greensteel): 12 dmg/swing on average(1d10+1d6+2+2)
Hits AC40 at 60%/60%/20%/0%, with 35% chance to crit (average 1/rnd): 12-24 dmg per round [18 avg.], up to 24-36 dmg/rnd on average with crit. [30 avg.]

Kukri (Damask): 13 dmg/swing on average (1d4+1d6+2+3+2)
Hits AC40 at 60%/60%/15%/0%, with 30% chance to crit; avg dmg 13-26/rnd [19.5 avg], up to 26-39 w/crit. [32.5 avg]
Kukri (Greensteel): 10 dmg/swing on average (1d4+1d6+2+2)
Hits AC40 at 60%/60%/15%/0%, with 45% chance to crit; avg dmg 10-20/rnd [15 avg.], up to 20-30 [25 avg.] w/one crit, or 20-40 w/two crits. [30 avg.]

Dual Wielding:
Katana (Damask) 15 dmg/swing mainhand, 14/swing offhand
35%/35%/5%/0%/35%/5%, with 20% chance to crit (1 per round); avg. 11 dmg per round, 22 w/crit
Katana (Greensteel): 12 dmg/swing mainhand, 11 offhand
35%/35%/5%/0%/35%/5% with 30% chance to crit (avg. 1 per round still); avg. 8 dmg per round, 16 w/crit

Kukri (Damask): 9.5 dmg/swing, 8.5 offhand
35%/35%/5%/0%/35%/5%, with 30% chance to crit; 9 dmg/rnd, 18 w/crit
Kukri (Greensteel): 6.5 dmg/swing, 5.5 offhand
35%/35%/5%/0%/35%/5%, with 45% chance to crit (1-2 rnd); avg. 6 dmg/rnd, up to 12 w/crit, up to 24 w/2 crits

So, the math (as it stands and with a completely arbitrary benchmark of 40 to hit), your best average damage per round is going to come from a single Greensteel Katana - the kukris will give you more crits per round, but you'll still need both of the average crits/rnd to make up for the smaller average damage overall. With more STR, permanent essences or (especially) 7 lvls of WM to boost the crit modifier to x3, the kukri's might pull out ahead - but without WM you don't really have enough static damage bonuses to make use of the kukri's superior crit range.

Of course, I might've Snuggle a Bugbear my math somewhere. I'm tired, and math was never my strong suite. That's why I dig holes to look for pottery IRL instead of building bridges or making robitz.

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