Spellsword builds

[Nitro]

So, now that we have an actual path for these builds, let's theorycraft us some good builds with the path.

At a glance (and presuming that the extra APR from the path doesn't stack with fighter) It seems like you'll want to head pretty deep into it, perhaps a full 27 to get the most out of the AB boosts, then a multiclass dump for Disc/tumble?

It won't be as fighty as a fighter, but with full wizard casting with the exception of two schools and all epic spells except for EMA.

Addendum: Would it be worthwhile to invest fully into INT instead of STR to get the most out of the INT buffs, or would it be smarter to leave INT at a lower point and focus STR for better AB?

[Peppermint]

STR > INT

STR grants AB/DMG, INT grants AC/DMG. AC hits a point of diminishing returns, though. You'll hit the dodge gap pretty easily.

Mathing it out:

4 (haste)
5 (EMA)
1 (boots)

That leaves 10 points to be filled by an INT bonus. You'll get this even with a mere 19 points in intelligence. I'd invest up to 20 points then invest into STR from there.

[Jagel]

That knight path with abilities based on int should synergize well.

[Orian_666]

Right, I've been going over potential builds for the last few hours but Peppers comment has messed with my head.
How does 19 Int grant 10 AC? Wouldn't that give 4AC, 5AC if you went 20 Int?
Is the bonus = to base Int, or your Int modifier?

[Lorkas]

Right, I've been going over potential builds for the last few hours but Peppers comment has messed with my head.
How does 19 Int grant 10 AC? Wouldn't that give 4AC, 5AC if you went 20 Int?
Is the bonus = to base Int, or your Int modifier?

19 INT base, with gear and buffs to bring you up the rest of the way. Go 20 INT so you can cast all of your wizard spells, then put the rest in STR.

If you go wizard 23/rogue 3/fighter 4 I can see around 41 AB, 68 AC (not in improved expertise), and 48 damage per non-crit without doing too much fancy stuff apart from the kind of armor-dance that battlebards to cast in robes then switch to armor/shield.

That AB is not amazing of course, but that AC means that a character with less than +48 AB cannot crit you with any roll without flat-footing you or using True Strike.

[Peppermint]

I wouldn't build a PDK-centric spellsword. The class may see some adjustments in the relatively near future; this particular synergy may not last.

That aside, carry on!

[Orian_666]

Aaah, I get you, so that was accounting for the soft bonus too. Right, yea that's the amount I had put into my test builds.
Ended up with,

Unbuffed: 38AB, 39AC

Full Buffed: 41AB (50 with Divine Power, 52 cap with TS) 67AC

Panic buffed, 4-5 spells max: Managed 41AB, 66AC.

All of this is before Imp Expertise.

Damage was consistently around 40-50 per hit regardless of buffs.

This was a 23/4/3 Wiz/Fight/Bard. ESF Illusion for the clone to fight with you, assuming the bonus' from INT carry over to the clone.

[Pavor Nocturnus]

23 wizard/4 fighter/3 monk in Tenser's. Focus on INT and WIS, as STR, CON and DEX are fixed in this form. AC can reach 85 in Improved Expertise, and AB could be around 48, or so. With own buffs only (empowered). Divine Power scrolls would increase this, but you'd have to use these before going into Tenser's, which leaves 6 rounds of the Divine Power effect. This build would technically be able to get 7 attacks per round (4 from spellsword, +2 from Tenser's, +1 from haste)

This is assuming the AB bonus from INT stacks with the AB bonus given by Tenser's.

[Lorkas]

23 wizard/4 fighter/3 monk in Tenser's. Focus on INT and WIS, as STR, CON and DEX are fixed in this form. AC can reach 84 (maybe even 85) in Improved Expertise, and AB could be around 48, or so. With own buffs only (empowered). Divine Power scrolls would increase this, but you'd have to use these before going into Tenser's, which leaves 6 rounds of the Divine Power effect. This build would technically be able to get 7 attacks per round (4 from spellsword, +2 from Tenser's, +1 from haste)

This is assuming the AB bonus from INT stacks with the AB bonus given by Tenser's.

There is no AB bonus to INT (only from levels in spellsword), and I'm suspicious of that much AC in Tenser's. You lose out on 15 AC from armor+(addy) tower shield+boots in that form and lose all of your INT bonuses on items since nothing merges (and even if it did, the properties wouldn't all stack together). It looks to me like you could pull about 48 AC in Tenser's without using IE.

EDIT: I didn't count monk WIS AC, which would add probably 3-5 at most without counting WIS from gear. I'm pretty sure that taking monk levels is a downgrade from taking rogue or bard levels though, since you're going to get more benefit out of full plate than you will from your WIS bonus.

[Kirito]

It's worth noting that tensors will be getting a rework (as will divine power) so they will not be abuse able with the path, or each other...

So don't bank on those 7 attacks

[Pavor Nocturnus]

23 wizard/4 fighter/3 monk in Tenser's. Focus on INT and WIS, as STR, CON and DEX are fixed in this form. AC can reach 84 (maybe even 85) in Improved Expertise, and AB could be around 48, or so. With own buffs only (empowered). Divine Power scrolls would increase this, but you'd have to use these before going into Tenser's, which leaves 6 rounds of the Divine Power effect. This build would technically be able to get 7 attacks per round (4 from spellsword, +2 from Tenser's, +1 from haste)

This is assuming the AB bonus from INT stacks with the AB bonus given by Tenser's.

There is no AB bonus to INT (only from levels in spellsword), and I'm suspicious of that much AC in Tenser's. You lose out on 15 AC from armor+(addy) tower shield+boots in that form and lose all of your INT bonuses on items since nothing merges (and even if it did, the properties wouldn't all stack together). It looks to me like you could pull about 48 AC in Tenser's without using IE.

EDIT: I didn't count monk WIS AC, which would add probably 3-5 at most without counting WIS from gear. I'm pretty sure that taking monk levels is a downgrade from taking rogue or bard levels though, since you're going to get more benefit out of full plate than you will from your WIS bonus.

Yes. Sorry, I meant the AB bonus from levels in spellsword.

As for the AC: 10 base, 4 haste, 4 tenser's, 20 EMA, 10 improved expertise, 9 WIS modifier, 10 INT modifier, 6 tumble, 9 DEX modifier, 2 Armor Skin. That's 84 AC.

BUT, you are right. You'd exceed the +20 Dodge AC cap with this. This would actually result in 81 AC.

This is without counting gear, as that does not stack in Tenser's. This is counting the maxed outcomes from Empowered Owl's, Bull's, Cat's and Fox'.

It's worth noting that tensors will be getting a rework (as will divine power) so they will not be abuse able with the path, or each other...

So don't bank on those 7 attacks

The many attacks per round is not what would make this build powerful, as with that AB, you would probably miss half of the attacks still, in most cases.

[Kirito]

The many attacks per round is not what would make this build powerful, as with that AB, you would probably miss half of the attacks still, in most cases.

How high AB are you used to?
Full AB (25) plus weapon foci (3) plus prowess (1) plus damask (3) plus stat bonus (15) is 47... what am I missing that gets the AB that much higher?

[Pavor Nocturnus]

The many attacks per round is not what would make this build powerful, as with that AB, you would probably miss half of the attacks still, in most cases.

How high AB are you used to?
Full AB (25) plus weapon foci (3) plus prowess (1) plus damask (3) plus stat bonus (15) is 47... what am I missing that gets the AB that much higher?

With an AB of 47/42/37/32, the latter two attacks are avoided by most epic mobs and pretty much all properly built lvl 30 characters, bar mages, barbarians and warlocks.

[Hunter548]

The many attacks per round is not what would make this build powerful, as with that AB, you would probably miss half of the attacks still, in most cases.

How high AB are you used to?
Full AB (25) plus weapon foci (3) plus prowess (1) plus damask (3) plus stat bonus (15) is 47... what am I missing that gets the AB that much higher?

No way you get 25 BAB with this path, or 15 strength modifier. AB is probably more like 40, 42.

[Nitro]

More attacks per round also means higher odds of getting those sweet crits, which even if they don't confirm will land a hit.

[Pavor Nocturnus]

The many attacks per round is not what would make this build powerful, as with that AB, you would probably miss half of the attacks still, in most cases.

How high AB are you used to?
Full AB (25) plus weapon foci (3) plus prowess (1) plus damask (3) plus stat bonus (15) is 47... what am I missing that gets the AB that much higher?

No way you get 25 BAB with this path, or 15 strength modifier. AB is probably more like 40, 42.

No, it's Tenser's that vastly increases AB: http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Tenser%27s_transformation, together with +6 AB from spellsword.

[Kirito]

The many attacks per round is not what would make this build powerful, as with that AB, you would probably miss half of the attacks still, in most cases.

How high AB are you used to?
Full AB (25) plus weapon foci (3) plus prowess (1) plus damask (3) plus stat bonus (15) is 47... what am I missing that gets the AB that much higher?

No way you get 25 BAB with this path, or 15 strength modifier. AB is probably more like 40, 42.

No, it's Tenser's that vastly increases AB: http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Tenser%27s_transformation, together with +6 AB from spellsword.

I got that...

I was actually thinking of say a straight fighter... Pavor was giving the indication that the AB isn't that great... I can't see how a proper melee build can get substantially more...

[Hunter548]

No, it's Tenser's that vastly increases AB: http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Tenser%27s_transformation, together with +6 AB from spellsword.

Surely you'll hit the AB cap before you get to 47 ab? Or perhaps my math's wrong.

[Pavor Nocturnus]

No, it's Tenser's that vastly increases AB: http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Tenser%27s_transformation, together with +6 AB from spellsword.

Surely you'll hit the AB cap before you get to 47 ab? Or perhaps my math's wrong.

Yeah, you probably would, come to think of it. It didn't say anywhere on the nwnwiki, that the AB bonus from Tenser's adds to the +20 cap, but if it does, then it's lower.

[Orian_666]

In a test build I did, using item enchantments to account for the path bonuses, I managed to get an unbuffed AB of 38 (this is with arelith like enchanted gear), buffed (hitting the +12 soft cap for str) to 41, and with Divine Power I got 50. The +20 cap topped at 52, tested with True Strike.
All things considered with the potential AC (in my test I managed 67 buffed before Expertise) that AB is pretty damn acceptable.

Keep in mind this is all using a standard 23Wiz/4Fight/3Bard build, not with tensers. With this build tensers actually makes you considerably weaker.

So this is just to point out that it's entirely possible to reach decent AB, useful AB with TS or Divine Power, with a standard build for a spellsword.

Sure a single Mords will screw you over considerably, but I guess that's the cost of having these numbers AND access to 9th level wizard spells.

[Astral]

Sure a single Mords will screw you over considerably, but I guess that's the cost of having these numbers AND access to 9th level wizard spells.

What stops you from going 27 wizard 3 bard with this path? Wouldn't you hold against dispel check better? I'm curious why the fighter lvls are even there in first place on a path that intentionally scales your ab with wizard lvls.

[Pavor Nocturnus]

Sure a single Mords will screw you over considerably, but I guess that's the cost of having these numbers AND access to 9th level wizard spells.

What stops you from going 27 wizard 3 bard with this path? Wouldn't you hold against dispel check better? I'm curious why the fighter lvls are even there in first place on a path that intentionally scales your ab with wizard lvls.

Epic Weapon Specialization.

[Astral]

Sure a single Mords will screw you over considerably, but I guess that's the cost of having these numbers AND access to 9th level wizard spells.

What stops you from going 27 wizard 3 bard with this path? Wouldn't you hold against dispel check better? I'm curious why the fighter lvls are even there in first place on a path that intentionally scales your ab with wizard lvls.

Epic Weapon Specialization.

Not worth it imo. if that's really the only reason to mc fighter I think i'd prefer the CL. You get like 10 damage from int mod if I'm not mistaken. That's like a permanent divine might for a sorcadin.

Edit: Do you even get access to heavy armors and weapons on this path or you still need fighter lvls OR picking the feats menually?

[yellowcateyes]

EDIT: These builds are OBSOLETE in light of recent tweaks. See link for details
viewtopic.php?f=23&p=112685#p112685


Here are some basic builds for people to consider. These aren't perfect, optimized builds but rather the ideas of someone grappling with a new path.

There are two variants here: a 24 Spellsword / 6 Fighter, and a 23 Spellsword / 4 Fighter / 3 Rogue.

If you spot any errors in the builds or ways they can be improved, don't hesitate to point them out.

Basic Stat Distribution and Progression:

Human Spellsword

STR 17 (+2) (Final 24)
DEX 9
CON 14
WIS 8
INT 16 (+2) (Final 20)
CHA 8

Stat progression: STR at levels 4, 8, 12. INT at 16, 20. STR at 24, 28.
Gear: STR/INT/CON, apply also to helmet and plate due to EMA.

Variant 1: 24 Spellsword / 6 Fighter

1 W Extend Spell, Expertise
2 W
3 W Still Spell
4 W
5 F Weapon Focus
6 F Imp. Expertise, Blindfight
7 F
8 F Weapon Spec
9 W Bonus Wiz: Maximize Spell, Knockdown
10 W
11 W
12 W Imp. Knockdown
13 W
14 W Bonus Wiz: SF Abj
15 W Toughness
16 W
17 W
18 W [Imp. Critical or Craft Wand or Arcane Defense: Abj]
19 W Bonus Wiz: GSF Abj
20 W
21 F Epic Weapon Focus
22 W
23 W
24 W Auto-Still I
25 W Bonus Wiz: Auto-Still II
26 W
27 W Epic Mage Armor
28 W Bonus Wiz: Auto-Still III
29 F Epic Weapon Spec
30 W [Armor Skin or ESF Discipline]

Stats:
[ Assuming STR/INT/CON gear, and maximized Bull's, Fox's, Cat's and Bear's ]

AC = 63, 73 in IE (+2 with Armor Skin) [10 + 20 EMA + 11 INT dodge AC + 4 Haste + 6 Addy Tower + 8 Full Plate + 3 Cross-Classed Tumble + 1 DEX]
AB = 44 [17 BAB + 6 Spellsword AB + 13 STR + 3 Weapon Focus + 5 GMW] [Truestrike can only improve by 6 due to ab bonus caps]
Damage = [weapon] + 13 STR + 11 INT + 6 Weapon Spec +5 GMW + [essences]
HP: 474
4 APR from 22 Spellsword Levels

Saving Throws [No Gear assumed]:
Fort/Ref/Wil: 23/12/15, 29/18/21 vs Spells

Variant 2: 23 Spellsword / 4 Fighter / 3 Rogue

1 W Extend Spell, Expertise
2 W
3 W Still Spell
4 F Weapon Focus
5 F Imp. Expertise
6 F Blindfight
7 W
8 W Bonus Wiz: Maximize Spell
9 W Knockdown
10 W
11 W
12 W Imp. Knockdown
13 W Bonus Wiz: SF Abj
14 W
15 W Toughness
16 W
17 W
18 W Bonus Wiz: GSF Abj, [Imp. Critical or Craft Wand or Arcane Defense: Abj]
19 W
21 W Epic Weapon Focus
22 W
23 W
24 W Auto-Still I
25 W Bonus: Auto-Still II
26 R
27 R ESF Discipline
28 R
29 F Armor Skin
30 W Epic Mage Armor, Bonus Wiz: Auto-Still III

Stats:
[ Assuming STR/INT/CON gear, and maximized Bull's, Fox's, Cat's and Bear's ]

AC = 68, 78 in IE [10 + 20 EMA + 11 INT dodge AC + 4 Haste + 6 Addy Tower + 8 Full Plate + 6 Tumble +2 Armor Skin + 1 DEX]
AB = 43 [16 BAB + 6 Spellsword AB + 13 STR + 3 Weapon Focus + 5 GMW] [Truestrike can only improve by 6]
Damage = [weapon] + 13 STR + 11 INT +5 GMW + [essences]
HP: 462
4 APR from 22 Spellsword Levels

Saving Throws [No Gear assumed]:
Fort/Ref/Wil: 23/12/15, 29/18/21 vs Spells

Edit: Note that you can replace Rogue in variant 2 with Bard. In this case, you trade off Evasion and Sneak Attack dice for access to the Taunt skill, which would help your below-average AB.

[Pavor Nocturnus]

What stops you from going 27 wizard 3 bard with this path? Wouldn't you hold against dispel check better? I'm curious why the fighter lvls are even there in first place on a path that intentionally scales your ab with wizard lvls.

Epic Weapon Specialization.

Not worth it imo. if that's really the only reason to mc fighter I think i'd prefer the CL. You get like 10 damage from int mod if I'm not mistaken. That's like a permanent divine might for a sorcadin.

Edit: Do you even get access to heavy armors and weapons on this path or you still need fighter lvls OR picking the feats menually?

Arcane Defense: Abjuration.

You do not get Heavy Armour Proficiency or any Weapon Proficiency with the spellsword path.