PDK

[Seven Sons of Sin]

1. What base classes are best served by taking PDK?

2. Are PDKs best on str-based melee characters? (Perhaps redundant with the first question)

3. What are the best builds that utilize PDK levels?

4. Is it worthwhile to take more than 5 PDK levels?

5. What is the mechanical niche PDK is trying to fill in a party? Are they tanky utility characters? Do they have solo capacity / self sufficiency? Could they be a high "DPS" character?

[Jagel]

I'd wager it depends what sort of knightly path you choose. I've yet to play the class so this is pure theorycrafting.

1. I could see protector synergize quite well with barbarian. Draw aggro, let them take the tough love of your damage shield. Final stand would be an asset for as it'd allow them to regain a large chunk of HP after letting enemies wittle away at them. (Mainy pve) I haven't played barb enough to know if 5-6 lvls in the knight class and 3 rogue or bard lvls would weaken your barb class powers too much to be worth it.

2. Vanguard synergizes with builds that have access to high intimidate/charisma. Bardish build? Curse song and the fear effect would be a serious debuff to any Melee Class. (useful in pvp I'd suppose)

3. For knights valiant, heroic shield and inspire courage might work as a dip for classes that rely on summons. (mainly pve and mainly adding longevity as haste is easily accessible via potions/wands and castable by many classes that rely on summons). Inspire courage could also work well for paladins but again: is it enough to choose this class over, say, CoT/bard as a dip? I don't know.

The oath of wrath I can only imagine working as a flavor thing for wizards or maybe assassins but only in the form of a slight utility thing and not anything ground breaking in terms of power.

[Prestige]

1. Barbarian, paladin, bard. Heroic Shield benefits heavily from high BAB classes (you give a lot of AB to rogues, dex builds, etc), and most of these can take advantage of other abilities on offer.

2. Strength or Con based, I'd say. All of this is coming from the position of someone who played a PDK up to level 30 in the last month or so: to get the most mileage out of the class, you really want to invest in being tanky - either by AC or by DR.

Barb 23/PDK 4/Rogue 3 (alternate split could be 21/6/3 for maximizing fear),
Paladin 23/PDK 4/Rogue 3 (this is the most 'balanced' split I can think of: Paladin gives high offensive and defensive capabilities in short bursts, and PDK augments them magnificently. If you wanted to invest more highly in PDK, I would recommend a split of 17 Paladin 10 PDK 3 rogue - effectively sacrificing an epic paladin feat for the utility of having an incredible amount of sustain through final stand).
Bard 4/PM 16/PDK 10. (this is a really strong tank but has effectively no offensive power. The alternate split I would consider would be 18 PM 8 PDK - giving your summoned vampires a little more survivability while you tank for them.)
Almost all of these utilize protector for the infinite uses of rallying cry, making it very easy to keep things focused on you. Barbarian could benefit from valiant's repeated use of fear (intimidate synergyzing with rage and all), but the utility of keeping the focus on you while you have your rage up is really nice also. Valiant is rather weak.

4. The added uses of Final Stand are very nice on protector, and the fear scales up nicely. In other words, it depends on the build.

5. Utility-based tanks. You can solo with summons (I imagine a ranger might have some success with a highly buffed animal companion, since you can force everything to aggro the ranger all the time), but principally its primary directive in life is to -guard a DPS, use rallying cry to keep its friends safe, use Oath of Wrath and Fear to debuff fights, and Inspire Courage + Final Stand to keep its party in the fight. You will never come close to a dedicated damage build (rogues, AAs, WMs etc will leave you in the dust as far as damage is concerned), but a protector is one of the most elegant solutions if your party has more damage dealers than it has tanks.

In other words, it's an above-average melee support, and has some awesome utility behind it (seriously, the first time you rallying cry to get all the mobs focusing you and save your party from a trip to the fugue, it's an amazing feeling), but you aren't looking at being the most optimal build to have ever walked the isles of Arelith. Give it a try if tanks are your thing: it really gives you an array of awesome tools to play around with, and your party members will love you.

[Baron Saturday]

PDK is a very versatile class, I feel, since it has no requirements, doesn't need a lot of levels to be effective, and has three paths that can suit different builds. People have already pointed out some optimal builds, but I'll mention two possibilities that haven't been brought up. (They might be stupid. I dunno, haven't worked them out fully. Sound fun off the top of my head, though.)

Dwarven Defender/Protector: I really like the potential here. The Protector's unlimited Rallying Cry neatly solves the immobility issue of Defensive Stance, and Final Stand works very well with a DD's high health and DR. (Bard 6/DD 14/Protector 10?)

Bard/Vanguard: Could produce a VERY potent duelist. Stack Bard Song/Curse Song/Fear/Oath of Wrath/Taunt to turn most builds into actual soup. Definitely a skill-heavy build, but a high base Int improves Oath of Wrath anyway. Don't, uh... don't get Silenced. (Rogue 5/Bard 15/Vanguard 10?)

As for Valiant, I'm not really sure what to do with it. Haste from Heroic Shield quickly loses its relevance at higher levels, while the AB and damage from Inspire Courage are pretty underwhelming, making it mostly a save buff.

[Astral]

Bard/Vanguard: Could produce a VERY potent duelist. Stack Bard Song/Curse Song/Fear/Oath of Wrath/Taunt to turn most builds into actual soup. Definitely a skill-heavy build, but a high base Int improves Oath of Wrath anyway. Don't, uh... don't get Silenced. (Rogue 5/Bard 15/Vanguard 10?)

Not sure about the level spread there but this idea in general is what first came to my mind when I read the PDK release. Even without the rogue lvls, 20+ bard, maybe even 24 bard 6 pdk or something like that. And then it's a very potent dualist that can challenge cookie cutters but that's just in theory yet. Eitherway, the bard/vanguard combo is definitely what seems the strongest to me with this class so far.

[Prestige]

Bard/Vanguard: Could produce a VERY potent duelist. Stack Bard Song/Curse Song/Fear/Oath of Wrath/Taunt to turn most builds into actual soup. Definitely a skill-heavy build, but a high base Int improves Oath of Wrath anyway. Don't, uh... don't get Silenced. (Rogue 5/Bard 15/Vanguard 10?)

Not sure about the level spread there but this idea in general is what first came to my mind when I read the PDK release. Even without the rogue lvls, 20+ bard, maybe even 24 bard 6 pdk or something like that. And then it's a very potent dualist that can challenge cookie cutters but that's just in theory yet. Eitherway, the bard/vanguard combo is definitely what seems the strongest to me with this class so far.

The issues I encountered with bard/pdk were twofold (and it was the first thing I tried to build):

1 - PDK Bard looks like it'd be strong, given the Bard's natural propensity toward debuffing, but honestly the bard debuffs are in themselves so enormous that adding more is doubling down on the class's strengths without fixing any of the bard's built-in weaknesses (low hp, feat starved, low damage) the way that fighter, paladin, blackguard, or pale master do.

2 - Bard is one of the most feat-starved classes on the server, which is why combat bards are stuck taking fighter levels. If you trade your fighter levels away, you actually don't have the feats to do much of anything. If you trade the paladin levels away for PDK, you don't have divine shield: effectively meaning you're playing at -9 AC on a build that needs to wring every drop of defense it can out of its level spread.

tl;dr PDK doubles down on areas where Bard already excels (past the point of diminishing returns) while not helping any of the class's glaring weaknesses.

[Cortex]

Bard/PDK can actually get pretty respectable damage and effective AB due to how many AC debuffs they can apply. Not to mention PDK is a 10HD 1 BAB class which helps in some of the mentioned issues.

I've tinkered with 20/10 and it could get iirc, near or over 60 AC, and 44 AB(before taking into account AC debuffs). Curse Song, Taunt and Oath of Wrath completely murders AC, not to mention Oath also boosts AB and damage, then you have War Cry, Bard Song, Rallying Cry to buff yourself and others for +5 AB, most of which are just about permanent with Lasting Inspiration once you hit 30.

[Astral]

Bard/PDK can actually get pretty respectable damage and effective AB due to how many AC debuffs they can apply. Not to mention PDK is a 10HD 1 BAB class which helps in some of the mentioned issues.

I've tinkered with 20/10 and it could get iirc, near or over 60 AC, and 44 AB(before taking into account AC debuffs). Curse Song, Taunt and Oath of Wrath completely murders AC, not to mention Oath also boosts AB and damage, then you have War Cry, Bard Song, Rallying Cry to buff yourself and others for +5 AB, most of which are just about permanent with Lasting Inspiration once you hit 30.

And all these things mean you can go heavy on con and round it up. I still cant decide how many bard/pdk lvls. 24/6 seems like it would survive dispels but I dunno maybe it doesn't really need to survive dispels if it's 20 bard 10 pdk as it gets enough debuffs to make up for it.

[Cortex]

To elaborate...

20 Bard 10 PDK

12 Bard 8 PDK pre epic for 17 BAB, +5 from epic for 22 BAB.
36 end STR, +13 AB
WF and EWF, +3 AB
GMW, +5 AB
War Cry, +2 AB
Bard Song, +2 AB
Rallying Cry, +1 AB

That's 48 AB so far.

Let's calculate potential debuffs.
Curse Song -5 AC.
Oath of Wrath(let's assume they have 20 INT buffed) -5 AC, +5 AB.
Taunt -6 AC.
Fear -5 AC.

Potential -21 AC, and +5 AB, boosting their AB to 53, and effective 74 AB if all debuffs work, which are difficult to play against safely.

Damage, I used a spear because I couldn't afford martial.
4.5 base
GMW 5.
Bard Song +3
Oath of Wrath +5
War Cry +2
Rallying Cry +1
Temp Essence +3.5
STR 13

Average of 37 damage, which is nothing to scoff at if they can hit you reliably at 5 APR.

Next, HP...
Bard 20, 120 HP
PDK 10, 100 HP
CON 9 modifier, 270 HP

Total of 490 HP, which again, is nothing to scoff at.

And lastly, AC.

Base, 11.
Adamantine Plate, 11.
Adamantine Shield, 6.
Adamantine Helmet, 3.
Boots, 1.
Tumble, 6.
Armor Skin, 2.

That's 40 AC standing.

Bard Song, +5.
Haste, +4.
Bark Skin, +4.
Mage Armor, +1.
Improved Expertise(which hey can afford when they can debuff your AC so hard), +10.

64 AC.
Not to mention Curse Song and Fear further screws with enemy's AB.

tl;dr
Potential of:
48 AB.
64 AC.
490 HP.
37 average damage per hit, 5 APR hasted.
21 AC debuffing.

[Astral]

What about something like a 4 rogue, 16 bg, 10 pdk? could be really strong with the epic fiend AND all the debuffs and mundane caster lvl. hells you can even kensai it if you're brave.

[Baron Saturday]

So the reason I suggested the 5/15/10 spread was to deal with the rather intense skill requirements of that build. With that spread and 16 base Int, you could get discipline, spellcraft, tumble, taunt, UMD, perform and concentration, and still have some leftover for heal.

Plus I figured that, after giving yourself +5 AB and them -8 discipline, you could reasonably expect to land a Knockdown, at which point those rogue levels kick in for some nice bonus damage.

Also, I wasn't sure if PDK levels past 5 could be taken pre-epic.

[Peppermint]

Yeah, PDK makes virtually anything better.

(And it's for that reason it's being looked at internally. I know we've been a bit slow on that. I've been sick. )

[High Primate]

I've been sick.

[Astral]

Yeah, PDK makes virtually anything better.

(And it's for that reason it's being looked at internally. I know we've been a bit slow on that. I've been sick. )

I hope you feel better!

Also, I wouldn't jump to radical conclusions (if that's why you are looking at the class again). PDK aint broken and like curse song, you can counter the PDK debuffs with a restore potion. When comparing to a fighter dip of 4-6 lvls, the PDK seems relatively balanced for now.

[Sockss]

[Prestige]

Yeah, PDK makes virtually anything better.

(And it's for that reason it's being looked at internally. I know we've been a bit slow on that. I've been sick. )

Could you explain the builds you think are problematic with it? It doesn't work on any offense-based builds (wms have their 3 class restriction, rogues have almost no synergy with the class, and AAs have actually no synergy whatsoever) and it's a massively inferior dump for casters compared to Bard.

This leaves it filling the tank role, where it has to be compared to the de-facto best tanks: PMs and Clerics. It doesn't get nearly as good of AC as either, its buffs are lacking compared to what a cleric can give a party, and it's nowhere near the PM's crit-immune juggernaut status. I think it's a fun flavor class, but having gotten one to 30 recently I think most people over-estimate how strong it is.

[Jagel]

Probably mainly the fear ability

[Cortex]

Bard PDK
Ftr PDK Rog or Bard
Bard/PDK/PM
Paladin/PDK/Rog or Bard
Ranger/PDK/Rog or bard (still subpar due to being a ranger)
Barbarian/PDK/Rog or Bard(less AC on enemy makes a barbarian happy, also good T-Rage/Fear synergy, and Last Stand gives them so much HP)
Wizard/PDK(lol oath of wrath)

Just to name a few.

PDK won't give you as much damage or AC as other builds might, but it gives strong debuffing, making it a super invaluable asset while being powerful itself.

[Baron Saturday]

A level 10 Protector gets the equivalent of 11 mass heals/day.

And of course a major strength of PDK is that it can potentially be taken on ANY build, since it has absolutely zero requirements or restrictions.

[miesny_jez]

A level 10 Protector gets the equivalent of 11 mass heals/day.

When You word it like this it does sound like a pretty nice op class to play

[yellowcateyes]

Probably mainly the fear ability

If it was just the fear ability, then the discussions would focus on the fear ability.

First, Fear isn't the only problematic ability. Last Stand scales off of HP totals, giving the PDK some incredibly strong burst healing.

Second, the potent abilities are present in a class that requires no investment and has no restrictions.


For example, a heal path cleric takes on some obvious weaknesses in return for its potent healing. A paladin needs to invest CHA to make Lay on Hands remotely worthwhile.

PDK? It's a high BAB, d10 HP class that offers more burst group healing than either a heal path cleric or a paladin, without any drawbacks or investment needed to make it work. You can go full on STR melee and still be mass healing your group for effectively 10x their HP pools.

It's the combination of potent abilities, zero sacrifice and lack of required investment that makes PDK overtuned.

[Prestige]

Bard PDK
Ftr PDK Rog or Bard
Bard/PDK/PM
Paladin/PDK/Rog or Bard
Ranger/PDK/Rog or bard (still subpar due to being a ranger)
Barbarian/PDK/Rog or Bard(less AC on enemy makes a barbarian happy, also good T-Rage/Fear synergy, and Last Stand gives them so much HP)
Wizard/PDK(lol oath of wrath)

Just to name a few.

PDK won't give you as much damage or AC as other builds might, but it gives strong debuffing, making it a super invaluable asset while being powerful itself.

With the exception of Bard/PDK/PM (which I will grant is probably one of the strongest builds on the server right now) none of those are particularly egregious. PDK doesn't have any extra defense self-buffs (outside of the final stand heal), so it has to rely on one of its other two classes to fill its role.

The issue I have with people saying "PDK gives you all of this stuff for free" is that there's no such thing as a free lunch. In all of the builds listed above, you're giving up the feats that fighter provides (aside from wizard, where you give up UMD and Tumble, and fighter where you're giving up either Divine Shield or WM levels). You have to build to utilize PDK, and in a lot of cases (with the exception, imo, being Pale Master) you're gimping your build to do so.

For instance:
20 Bard/10 PDK gets an enormous increase in marginal debuffing ability, at the cost of four bonus feats (from 6 fighter) and divine shield/might (from 4 Paladin). These effectively sum to a net loss of one feat, 9 AC, fear immunity, and 9 damage (only one bonus feat because Power Attack, Divine Might, and Divine Shield all subtract one feat from the four bonus you're given). In exchange, you gain additional debuffs and an incredibly strong heal. I'd call this a sidegrade: perhaps weaker in the sense that if your opponent restoration scrolls themselves, you're even more SOL than bard usually is in that situation.

Some of those builds don't really work in any capacity: in my opinion, neither Fighter nor Ranger can effectively utilize PDK's abilities at later levels due to a lack of built-in tankiness, and the class relegates you into a tank role. Fighters are better off as Pale Masters if they want to tank and Weapon Masters if they want to do damage: PDK only really gives them some extra party utility. Rangers are better off deleting and switching to fighter instead picking up some fighter levels for weapon specialization and helping with their feat deprivation issue.

Barbarian and Paladin are strong with it (fighter is a better choice for offense, this is a great choice for a utility-based tank character) and pdk wizard is a meme with no umd.

My opinion is that Final Stand is probably a little strong as written, but the rest of the class is fine because it gives you some okay debuffs (only if you invest intimidate), but in doing so it relegates you to tanking and gives you no real tools with which to tank.

[Cortex]

You're comparing some of those to builds that are not a direct comparison, like to a PM. A fighter or ranger PDK is more of a offensive debuffer than a tank, and it is not to say they're amazing, but it makes them better than they would be otherwise (without going other PrCs).

And if a wizard without UMd is a meme, what do you have to say about all the wizard/rangers?

[Mithreas]

My wizard/ranger took ranger for a stealth & discipline dip that would also give me the feats to wield a dire mace as a staff. Absolutely useless mechanically, but it looked badass

Back on topic... Cortex, you've said "these builds are all good" and Prestige has said "yes, but they've given up other things & hence there's a cost to the bonuses they're getting". I also note from the list that you have some Vanguard and some Protector builds (I think) - in each case majoring on one or two PDK abilities.

Equally, I could use your list to say "bard is too strong" because it appears in all your builds except the last one! Which suggests that your core concern is the debuff synergy of PDK and bard, something which a couple of posters have already addressed?

[Cortex]

Bard in all but Bard/PDK 20 10 is only used as a dip, you could just replace it with rogue. What Prestige said is also not to be taken as fact (just like what I say can always be disputed with enough evidence), especially when what they give up is quite worthwhile for what they get.

A misconception here is that not all of the builds above are necessarily broken in PvP, but are incredibly overpowered for PvE (permanent haste for an ally, anybody?), or mass use of Fear, which as a Vanguard can be used often and is immensely powerful for PvE encounters.

edit: Small elaboration, a simple build like 23 Ftr 7 PDK can get 42 base AC without IE, which is pretty respectable (a potential of 60 AC or so), and about 46-48 AB, which is nothing to scoff at when they have debuff abilities.