Shadow Mage???

[Wytchee]

How do You reach Hide 98 if the skills are capped at +50 bonus max ?

You're right, I'd forgotten about that pesky +50 cap. But I was considering camo and mass camo wands, which stack with each other. ^^

[Hunter548]

A hide higher than ~60 or so is probably primarily masturbatory anyways - Anyone who can see you at 65ish hide can probably see you at 100.

[High Primate]

(1) Do you have levels in a third class that has discipline? If not, how will you survive those twelve seconds without discipline? A meleer could get you with KD.

(2) If so, how many wizard levels do you end up with?

1. No. I'm operating in the same manner a pure wizard would. Is it optimal? No. But if my hasted, sneaky self (who has Web, Grease, Darkness and three vampire summons) is ever within range of a Meleer's knockdown I'm playing my class wrong. Darkness can also be used in lieu of HiPS.

2. 20 Wizard levels, 7 shadowdancer levels, 3 rogue levels. That's a CL of 27. And here's my final skillpoint tally, by the way (after epic skill foci, gifts and gear):

Bluff 30 (66)
Concentration 32 (38)
Disable Trap 30 (45)
Heal 21 (20)
Hide 33 (83 ) edit: Damn +50 cap!
Lore 26 (41)
Move Silently 33 (83)
Open Lock 30 (38)
Search 20 (45)
Spellcraft 32 (67)
Spot 32 (31)
UMD 19 (25)

So I think my position in groups is rather secure. >.>

As Cortex said, it's a manner of preference. Functionally, I'm building a wizard/rogue who has HiPS but three fewer epic feats.

The reason I was pressing you is because you described the build as "absurd", which I took to mean impressively powerful, when it is not. It's basically a less powerful wizard with a lot of rogue skills and no discipline. It's just kind of meh, easier to kill than other wizards with less options for combat. It's spell DCs are also lower due to less room for epic spell focuses, meaning the SD levels actually detract from the Shadow Mages bonus to enchantment, necromancy, and illusion.

[Wytchee]

A hide higher than ~60 or so is probably primarily masturbatory anyways - Anyone who can see you at 65ish hide can probably see you at 100.

Okay, well, I wanted her skills to reflect her faith and vocation. *Shrugs*

The reason I was pressing you is because you described the build as "absurd", which I took to mean impressively powerful, when it is not. It's basically a less powerful wizard with a lot of rogue skills and no discipline. It's just kind of meh.

I could have chosen a better adjective. It may not be "absurd" in PvP, but in PvE this is about as optimal as I could make her for a skill-based character, and the RP tools are plenty.

EDIT 2 to address your edit: Even without epic spell foci, her spell DCs would be on par with someone with them as far as Enchantment and Necromancy are concerned, given that the path affords +2 DC to those schools in addition to Illusion. But I managed to fit them in, anyway.

EDIT: also, the necessity of discipline is largely overplayed, imo. If a dip into a discipline class is really that (objectively) mandatory, maybe that's a larger problem. I don't think it is, though.

[High Primate]

A 27 wizard/3 rogue would be able to do all those things plus be better in PvE by having things like Epic Spell Focus: Abjuration and Epic Spell: Dragon Knight. You get HiPS at the expense of 5 wizard levels which has limited uses.

As I stated earlier, I think the shadow mage could be quite useful with some very high DC level 9 spells. There are good reasons to take it and avoid SD. Take SD if you want, but my point still stands that it's not a really useful investment and makes the build worse in the end.

[Wytchee]

A 27 wizard/3 rogue would be able to do all those things plus be better in PvE by having things like Epic Spell Focus: Abjuration and Epic Spell: Dragon Knight. You get HiPS at the expense of 5 wizard levels which has limited uses.

As I stated earlier, I think the shadow mage could be quite useful with some very high DC level 9 spells. There are good reasons to take it and avoid SD. Take SD if you want, but my point still stands that it's not a really useful investment.

The only thing those extra wizard levels are good for are the extra epic bonus feats, two of which you miss out on should you take five levels of SD. SD levels count towards the character's caster level, so other than losing out on feats, I'm not sure why you're stressing the loss of wizard levels.

(You can also push your 20th wizard level into epics and afford yourself one more epic bonus feat.)

Ultimately I think we're arguing over our differing subjective ideas of what useful is, so we'll probably just go in circles from this point forward. ^^

[miesny_jez]

Well... I think rather similarly to Wytchee regarding a HIPS on a mage that it can be a rather powerful tool.

In fact...I've been using a build like that since.. like 2 years on my main character (Wizard/SD/Bard) though its still few levels short of HIPS due to 1 rebuild and high ECL (Svirf).

But I've seen a build like that in practice once on Arelith.. and I was impressed. HIPS on caster was effectively changing whole playstyle of that mage - no fear of melee contact, dodging spells with HIPSed fading out, free re-positioning and resuming control of combat.

I am certain about one thing that this will be a clear upgrade to my character thanks to the 5 CL and +2 DCs to spells I use the most.

I think its rather a question of added utility vs maximised power. I value Utility more.

[High Primate]

A 27 wizard/3 rogue would be able to do all those things plus be better in PvE by having things like Epic Spell Focus: Abjuration and Epic Spell: Dragon Knight. You get HiPS at the expense of 5 wizard levels which has limited uses.

As I stated earlier, I think the shadow mage could be quite useful with some very high DC level 9 spells. There are good reasons to take it and avoid SD. Take SD if you want, but my point still stands that it's not a really useful investment.

The only thing those extra wizard levels are good for is the extra epic bonus feat, two of which you miss out on should you take five levels of SD. SD levels count towards the character's caster level, so other than losing out on feats, I'm not sure why you're stressing the loss of wizard levels.

Six extra wizard levels will net you two extra bonus feats, one at 23rd and one at 26th. This could be spent on two epic spell focuses or two epic spells. I think the epic spell focuses would work great with a 26/4 Shadow Mage/Bard. Not a Shadow Mage/SD though, which can't take them. I see the 26/4 excelling over the 20/7/3 in PvP and in PvE. For example, with the 26/4, you can take Epic Spell Focuses in Illusion, Necromancy, and Abjuration. Access to powerful dispels and high DC insta-death spells in much better in combat than HiPS + lower DC spells. In the latter case, you can hide from your opponent, but you'll have a -6 on one spell school, making it easier for your opponents to resist you. They can then either charge you and knock you down with your lack of discipline, or, if it's another mage, strip your wards and kill you with evocations.

Again, your HiPS is also useless against opponents with True Seeing. You mentioned it being useful against opponents without True Seeing, but a lot of people have this, and since you do not always know who has a True Seeing scroll, a PvP encounter is basically a gamble; if they can see through your HiPS, you're in trouble.

I can see the SD levels being somewhat useful in pre-epic, but come epic levels you'll be vulnerable to a lot of enemies.

[Opustus]

Wizzy21/SD5/CoT4? Gets one epic spell, HiPS, isn't starved on epic feats, includes Discipline, CL26.

I'd personally contend that the crafty pure mage can outwit any other class type in NWN, even without Discipline, so Wizard23/SD7 might be just as good in capable hands. I think the 1 Epic Spell/other feat vs. Improved Evasion is debatable in terms of PvP at least; there might be some spells thrown about you need to save against if you have no time to prepare for battle with Spell Mantles. In PvM it might be better just to have a burly epic summon - though obviously you'll want the Shades for the RP effect, duh. Praise Shar!

I don't understand why the UMD is mandatory. Don't Wizards have access to all the essential (read: ludicrously OP) spells anyway?

EDIT: The loss of Caster Level is significant because it figures into the dispel battle, which is the ultimate mage showdown. Hastened Auto-quickened (to counterspell faster than others) level 30 Sorcerer is the mightiest caster by far: you just need to choose the right spells to defeat your opponents with, and your only match is another mage, against whom the best insurance is to trump their CL and cast faster.

EDIT2: Although I'm of the opinion that True Seeing needs to be ruthlessly nerfed to make Stealth Mode great again, I also think there's merit in HiPS despite the heartbreaking Bioware TS. Not everyone is constantly TS'd: the duration is rounds per level, so people reading the spell from scrolls are likely to be surprised by HiPS, unless they are already on red alert.

[High Primate]

A 27 wizard/3 rogue would be able to do all those things plus be better in PvE by having things like Epic Spell Focus: Abjuration and Epic Spell: Dragon Knight. You get HiPS at the expense of 5 wizard levels which has limited uses.

As I stated earlier, I think the shadow mage could be quite useful with some very high DC level 9 spells. There are good reasons to take it and avoid SD. Take SD if you want, but my point still stands that it's not a really useful investment.

The only thing those extra wizard levels are good for are the extra epic bonus feats, two of which you miss out on should you take five levels of SD. SD levels count towards the character's caster level, so other than losing out on feats, I'm not sure why you're stressing the loss of wizard levels.

Because that extra epic spell focus could be used to get higher DC spells. Caster levels do not add to spell DC.

[High Primate]

Wizzy21/SD5/CoT4?
I don't understand why the UMD is mandatory.

What's mandatory is discipline. This build is better since it has access to that, plus the epic spell. But note, again, that higher level monsters and players tend to have ways of seeing through stealth and invisibility, meaning that this build still just won't be that great into epic levels and the 5 SD levels will essentially be a burden.

[Wytchee]

A 27 wizard/3 rogue would be able to do all those things plus be better in PvE by having things like Epic Spell Focus: Abjuration and Epic Spell: Dragon Knight. You get HiPS at the expense of 5 wizard levels which has limited uses.

As I stated earlier, I think the shadow mage could be quite useful with some very high DC level 9 spells. There are good reasons to take it and avoid SD. Take SD if you want, but my point still stands that it's not a really useful investment.

The only thing those extra wizard levels are good for is the extra epic bonus feat, two of which you miss out on should you take five levels of SD. SD levels count towards the character's caster level, so other than losing out on feats, I'm not sure why you're stressing the loss of wizard levels.

Six extra wizard levels will net you two extra bonus feats, one at 23rd and one at 26th. This could be spent on two epic spell focuses or two epic spells. I think the epic spell focuses would work great with a 26/4 Shadow Mage/Bard. Not a Shadow Mage/SD though, which can't take them. I see the 26/4 excelling over the 20/7/3 in PvP and in PvE. For example, with the 26/4, you can take Epic Spell Focuses in Illusion, Necromancy, and Abjuration. Access to powerful dispels and high DC insta-death spells in much better in combat than HiPS + lower DC spells. In the latter case, you can hide from your opponent, but you'll have a -6 on one spell school, making it easier for your opponents to resist you. They can then either charge you and knock you down with your lack of discipline, or, if it's another mage, strip your wards and kill you with evocations.

Again, your HiPS is also useless against opponents with True Seeing. You mentioned it being useful against opponents without True Seeing, but a lot of people have this, and since you do not always know who has a True Seeing scroll, a PvP encounter is basically a gamble; if they can see through your HiPS, you're in trouble.

I can see the SD levels being somewhat useful in pre-epic, but come epic levels you'll be vulnerable to a lot of enemies.

I'm just not understanding why you're bringing up a lack of DCs. The same skill-based wizard I'm making will have a FoD and WoB with DCs of 40 and 42 respectively.

40 DC FoD is no joke.

Again, even with the lack of epic feats I managed to squeeze in two epic spell foci, two epic skill foci and Mummy Dust. I could easily drop the second skill focus for a third epic spell focus.

[High Primate]

But you can get those things anyway plus more casting power without sinking 6 wizard levels for SD for a feat (HiPS) that will not be very useful late game. Also, a DC 40 FoD and 42 are something to shake a leg at if your opponent has death ward; with those extra wizard levels, you could also pick up Epic Spell Focus in illusion for casting Weird, which is not countered by death ward but by the very short-lasting clarity, which has a cooldown. You also lack the very important Epic Skill Focus in Abjuration, which makes your casting of FoD and WoB have less application.

[Opustus]

Wizzy21/SD5/CoT4?
I don't understand why the UMD is mandatory.

What's mandatory is discipline. This build is better since it has access to that, plus the epic spell. But note, again, that higher level monsters and players tend to have ways of seeing through stealth and invisibility, meaning that this build still just won't be that great into epic levels and the 5 SD levels will essentially be a burden.

But if you persistently elude your enemies with Greater sanctuary, Time stop, Bigby's, Sunburst, Shadowshield, and Spell mantles, your only job is to burst them down with the correct sequence of spells. The trick is not to get caught!

Wytchee: I'd also say that you don't chance your Spell DCs against foes you surmise to have amazing saves. Against low STR types, you might use Bigby's. Against basic fighter types, you might use Sunburst. Against Pallies and BGs, you spam the heck out of your Horrid wilting and Isaac's after dispelling them.

[Wytchee]

@High Primate

I think you're reaching for very specific circumstances to support your premise, and assuming that my character will be engaging in PvP often and without considerable forethought. That's not how I intend to play my shadow mage, so I'm not terribly worried.

What's more, Death Ward doesn't protect against three vampire summons, or Horrid Wilting, or -8 to strength thanks to a maximized NEB. Yes, NEP is an easy counter to this, but that's counterplay, and counterplay is good and vital to a functioning, cooperative PvP-enabled server.

But none of this invalidates your concerns or the points you made. If you want to make a standard PvP-focused wizard who just happens to have beefy necro/illusion/ench DCs, cool! I have a specific vision for my character (one I think a lot of people will share) and that suits me.

@Opustus

Yep, but shadow weave mages can't cast evocation spells.

[High Primate]

Wizzy21/SD5/CoT4?
I don't understand why the UMD is mandatory.

What's mandatory is discipline. This build is better since it has access to that, plus the epic spell. But note, again, that higher level monsters and players tend to have ways of seeing through stealth and invisibility, meaning that this build still just won't be that great into epic levels and the 5 SD levels will essentially be a burden.

But if you persistently elude your enemies with Greater sanctuary, Time stop, Bigby's, Sunburst, Shadowshield, and Spell mantles, your only job is to burst them down with the correct sequence of spells. The trick is not to get caught!

Wytchee: I'd also say that you don't chance your Spell DCs against foes you surmise to have amazing saves. Against low STR types, you might use Bigby's. Against basic fighter types, you might use Sunburst. Against Pallies and BGs, you spam the heck out of your Horrid wilting and Isaac's after dispelling them.

1. Bigby's is an evocation. Shadow Mage can't cast it.
2. Time Stop and GSanc have cooldowns.
3. Sunburst is a not only an (a) evocation; it's also (b) not an arcane spell.

[Cortex]

Matter of fact is that without IGMS or Bigby, the shadow weaver mage has significantly less offensive tools at their disposal. +40 DC Wails/Weirds/what have you are far easier to deal with (a wand or a potion) than IGMS (which requires two feats and a potion/wand/spell) or Forceful Hand(STR/spell mantle or GTFO) or other Bigby's that need clarity AND FOM..

[Wytchee]

Sunburst is an arcane spell. It's an 8th Circle wizard/sorcerer spell.

[Hunter548]

Sunburst is a wizard spell.

[High Primate]

@High Primate

I think you're reaching for very specific circumstances to support your premise, and assuming that my character will be engaging in PvP often and without considerable forethought. That's not how I intend to play my shadow mage, so I'm not terribly worried.

My point, even before you even began debating me, is that the SD does not add anything important or useful to the build, and I believe I have sufficiently demonstrated that point. I do think adding spells per day for Shadow Dancer levels, as in the case of PM or Harper Scout, would make the class more interesting and more worth the tradeoff for evocation, and that is ultimately the point I wish to make, and did in the beginning.

[High Primate]

Sunburst is a wizard spell.

Whoops, my mistake. Even still, it's an evocation, so a Shadow Mage cannot cast it.

[Wytchee]

Also, GSanc and Timestop may have cooldowns, but they're independent of one another.

And a 25d8 Horrid Wilting is nearly as much damage on average as a maximized IGMS against a single target (~120), albeit it has a fort save for half.

[High Primate]

Also, GSanc and Timestop may have cooldowns, but they're independent of one another.

I know. This does not show that SD levels are worthwhile on a Shadow Mage.

And a 25d8 Horrid Wilting is nearly as much damage on average as a maximized IGMS against a single target (~120), albeit it has a fort save for half.

This can be the case without taking 7 SD levels.

[Wytchee]

Alright, I think we're arguing for the sake of argument at this point.

We just have different playstyles, preferences and priorities.

[High Primate]

Alright, I think we're arguing for the sake of argument at this point.

I wasn't. I just like the idea of this path and want to see it improved, which requires me to make a case that it should be.