Lategame Pickpocket

[Rwby]

Oh. So that's what was going on with my SD. Had 100+ hide and 90+ ms and even low level trash would still spot me from time to time. Scouting into a room to check for mages was terrible, because I would just get machine gunned with quickened horrid wiltings.

Slightly off topic, but I'd recommend PMing Cortex with any Mage-spawns that do that sort of thing as he's been tweaking some of the mage spawns to be less... Unpleasent, to fight.

[Cortex]

There's nothing I can do about the spot/listen script, mind. I don't even know how that works and it's not directly involved with monster tweaking.

[Rwby]

There's nothing I can do about the spot/listen script, mind. I don't even know how that works and it's not directly involved with monster tweaking.

Should of been clearer that I meant specifically with the machine gunning Horrid Wilting sort of things. My bad!

[Mithreas]

The solution was to collectively punish all stealth builds by making it virtually impossible to stealth through entire areas and dungeons without drawing aggro from something. If you somehow survived, you 'deserved' to be there. If you didn't, you didn't. This was a crushing blow to stealthers on both servers.

Nonono you've missed the point -completely-.

<snip>

Rather confident you're the one missing the point.

Huh?

I implemented this feature. I know what I was thinking when I made it. You ascribed motives to me that I did not have, missing the motives I did have.

You see, I fundamentally disagree with this.

You almost seem to forget that rogues SUCK at face to face combat. They're literally not made for it, hence why sneak attack, traps, and crippling strike are their thing, and they have those stealth skills in the first place. People who build sneaks DO NOT WANT TO DUEL.

I have played a lot of rogues, and I disagree with this on many levels.

Unless your sneak is designed not to kill anything (which is not an approach Arelith has ever wanted to support), you have two choices - hit and run (e.g. an archer), or even the odds. Since NWN lets you get sneak attacks off attacking from stealth even when your opponent has heard you, this approach actually helps *both* strategies, by making it easier to scatter groups into more bite-sized challenges. Sure, you could also do it with a bow - unless you're a kensai... which, of course, it's entirely possible to be as a rogue. I get that people who are addicted to scrolls would never in their lives build a kensai rogue, but not everyone enjoys messing around with UMD. But also, the bow-lure thing has always annoyed me and I long had an ambition to change it... never quite doing it because of the massive impact it would have on the effective challenge rating of areas.

Playing rogues, I am absolutely all about dueling rather than facing groups of enemies. A single enemy can be more easily disabled or distracted. I can time my pickpocket attempts to the attack flurries of a single enemy; I can knock down a single enemy so that it can't hurt me; I can use a scroll or ability on a single enemy to render it even weaker and allow me to carve it up. In short, I can use strategy to control the fight against a single enemy far more effectively than I can against a group. As a rogue, if I'm fighting against a group, I want to be part of a group so I can focus on my DPS role and not try to control the fight. But soloing, fighting is all about control, and control is far easier one on one. Even the dodge feat is optimised for single enemy combat - as is epic dodge. It's very clear in my view that rogues are better off duelling enemies 1:1 when operating alone, and get weaker quickly when faced with larger numbers.

Lastly, on unpredictability. I get that you (and some others in this thread) are not a fan of that. I absolutely am. To me, the world feels more alive when you can't anticipate everything that's going to happen. To me, predictability makes everything "just a game" and makes it less of a living, breathing world.

You're very welcome to disagree with the why of the above. But this change wasn't simply a "rogue nerf". It was intended to stop people stealthing through dungeons many times their level, farming massive XP from pickpocket and nabbing epic loot, all without risk (the lack of risk was the problem - JJ was a massive rogue fan, playing rogues on pretty much every character, and this lack of risk was the main thing that frustrated us both). But it was also intended to promote an entirely different playstyle for stealth characters that offset their weaker combat prowess. You can argue about its effectiveness, but having made quite a lot of use of it, I've been happy with the way it plays. Probably the only thing I'd change about it is to make the spot/listen bonus cap at the challenge rating of the area, so that super low level things don't ever get super high bonuses.

While things are sprinting at the rogue, the rogue is stuck walking away scared unless it wants to break stealth, at which point the rest of the group will detect them and they'll get to deal with Arelith's oh-so-fun mob AI 'it doesn't matter if you're invisible or cornersneak I'm stuck-on-you-like-fly-to-shit' aggro.

In my (quite extensive) experience, walking away on stealth works fine against almost all creatures, and cornersneaking will usually allow you to get sneak attacks when it doesn't let you escape (i.e. if they can hear you and not see you). But part of this is not approaching a spawn too quickly, and giving yourself time to figure out if anything has seen you early enough that you can get away from the rest of the group.

(I also consider part of rogue play "having an exit" - i.e. a way to escape when things go badly wrong. Invis potions, haste/expeditious retreat, monk speed, or attunement potions or portal lenses are to me part of the "rogue game".)

---

Lastly, I've just spotted a bug in this feature that's been there since it went in (oops).

It's intended to be a flat +(d2)d20 to spot and +(d2)d20 to listen (calculated separately) for 1 in 6 creatures. This also means that if you can get your stealth over 60, you'd be immune to anything that doesn't have a natural WIS mod or actual skills on its sheet, giving a PvM reason to continue to invest over about 25 (which used to be the level you needed to get stealth to in order to travel almost the whole module in pretty effective safety).

However, a typo means it actually adds to listen twice - so basically adds (2-4)d20 to Listen. This means that going over 60 won't help you (but explains why sneak attack works pretty much every time for me).

I'll fix that, and cap the bonus at the area CL, since I have the code open.

[Lorkas]

That sounds like it will make a huge difference. I'm also a fan of things not being totally predictable, and definitely buy that argument for having those detection buffs among NPCs--it's just the argument for those detection buffs as being a good thing for rogues to be able to 1v1 enemies that I took issue with!

That said, a more reasonable luring system (that some characters are better at than others) like what I discussed above in response to your previous post would be super cool and fun, and would also open up the possibility of removing the lure-by-arrow method that is currently employed by just about everyone.

[Mithreas]

Sure, if you have ideas, let's have 'em. It's just there are a lot of limits to what you can do without breaking stealth! I did consider a "drop an item that makes a noise" type approach, but felt that would get very tedious/repetitive...

[Yma23]

Um. Small perhaps silly suggestion:

Could it be changed so that stealth works as normal for those with pure rogue levels. But those with other classes still have the 25% chance of being spotted whenever? Just an idea.

[Sockss]

As ideas:

• Giving mobs random 'see invisibility' would also cut down on the frankly significantly better option of just invis running dungeons for loot.
• Changing PC true seeing to instead grant see invis + spot/listen bonuses would also be neat; it might make picking up hide/ms and spot/listen useful somewhat in the PvP meta. (A significant buff to sneaking archetypes and rangers; though rang/rog/assa would still need some work to be competitive)
• Set trap being non-hostile would be great. (So you didn't break stealth when using it)
• SD's shadow bug fix (q_q)
• Giving mobs natural spot/listen where appropriate and adding a much smaller randomised amount

[Lorkas]

Throwing an item that makes a noise, knocking on walls, deliberately snapping twigs, that sort of stuff is what I had in mind for the fluff of the system.

The crunch of the system could draw inspiration from the implementation of player tool 1 on Arelith. Make a Player Tool 2, that could have two modes of acting:

1. By clicking PT2 and then clicking an NPC, you attempt to lure that monster (and only that monster) to your current location without revealing yourself outright
2. By clicking PT2 and then clicking the ground, you attempt to lure all hostile NPCs within a particular radius to the spot you clicked

The first mode is akin to making a relatively soft but suspicious sound that one NPC would follow up on. The second is akin to throwing a stone/fruit/whatever to that spot to make a sound more distantly.

Define a set of classes that are "lure classes" in the same way that "climb classes" have been defined. I'd say at a minimum, rogue, ranger, and assassin should be on the list, but it shouldn't be a large list. Maybe any class with hide/MS as a class skill? This is trickery, after all--fighters and knights and the like can handle a bigger melee, and mages don't typically have the kind of finesse needed to pull this off. Maybe halflings and characters who take a weapon focus feat in a thrown weapon (shuriken, dart, throwing axe, perhaps sling) could add a bonus to the roll to successfully lure NPCs.

When using mode 1, a check is done (using [lure class] levels + DEX + other modifiers, perhaps with the WIS or spot and/or CL or something of the enemy NPC opposing) to successfully lure that NPC to your location without being detected. Set two levels of failure: a normal failure means you lure more than just the one enemy (they come as a group to patrol your area), while a large failure means the entire group comes and detects you. Success means you lure the creature (and only that creature) to your location at the moment of using PT2 without breaking your stealth.

When using mode 2, the same check is done. This time, a small failure means that the enemies within the area realize you were trying to trick them, but don't spot you outright. They all get an extra d20 to spot and listen (stacking with the bonus that is already provided to 1 in 6 of them), since they're on high alert, looking for the PC. A large failure means they all spot you.

With something like this implemented and properly balanced (I left out numbers for the most part in the check), it would open up the possibility to make attacking an enemy with a ranged weapon cause all of the nearby enemies to attack, since they would raise the alarm instead of charging alone to attack the archer. Fighters and mages and the like who want to have more control of the encounter would have a reason to look for a roguey/rangery/assassiny character to help do so.

[yellowcateyes]

Lastly, I've just spotted a bug in this feature that's been there since it went in (oops).

It's hard to understate how significant this bug was, and how much it contributed to the strong reactions against your stated reasoning.

Contrary to the idea that the change encouraged people to invest more heavily into stealth skills, it reinforced the notion that you built only the necessary amount of stealth to get past most PCs. PvE, after all, was a crapshoot where random trash mobs could get up to 80(!) bonus Listen. As was noted, dedicated SDs with close to 100 stealth skills were still being caught out by common enemies.

The fix will likely help a great deal, especially in regard to CL limits on the random detect bonus.

It was intended to stop people stealthing through dungeons many times their level, farming massive XP from pickpocket and nabbing epic loot, all without risk

First, you can't really farm massive XP from pickpocketing. Above posters have noted its time inefficiency as opposed to simply clearing out mobs, or making use of new systems such as adventuring XP.

Second, the mechanic did not accomplish its stated goal of preventing people from slipping through higher-level dungeons and nabbing the loot. If PCs want to do that, the most effective way now is to use extended invisibility, which no random mob skill bonus can pierce, and/or a pixie familiar to pop open all the chests.

And if the goal was to prevent characters from easily waltzing through all content, why later introduce a class that had both infinite castings of Invisibility and Haste?

[Cortex]

It's true that sneaking pas an entire dungeon worth of monsters as a caster and then use a pixie to get to the good stuff is really easy. I've done it, I know people that have done it.

[MissEvelyn]

Several issues with the random spot-spike feature

1. Randomness.
Unlike trueseeing creactures, you can't really predict what is and isnt going to have a random spot boost. Which means things you DON'T want to aggro right away (mages with contingency) are just as likely to gain the boost as the next thing is.

2. Location
The "lure them away to kill one on one" doesn't work in all areas. Spawns in front of area transitions, spawns with some creatures that naturally have high spot/truesight mixed in...etc

3. Across the board
The boost seems to have as much significance to low level creatures (wolverines, goblins) as it does to high level creatures. This makes investing into stealth up to epic levels rather....lackluster.

4. Concept
The reason this was done was....why? To prevent a low level player from stealthing all the way through higher level dungeons? Was this even that big of an issue to begin with? And if someone was capable of stealthing through the dungeon and solo-killing the boss at the end....wouldn't that mean they're techincally an appropriate level for that dungeon?

+1 to everything here.

It actually breaks immersion when a low level critter can spot an epic Shadowdancer (whose specialty is supposed to be stealth). An epic stealther just doesn't feel so epic anymore.

[Freyason]

I'm curious if this fix ever went in (don't remember ever seeing it in updates, but I could be wrong)

Thanks.

Lastly, I've just spotted a bug in this feature that's been there since it went in (oops).

It's intended to be a flat +(d2)d20 to spot and +(d2)d20 to listen (calculated separately) for 1 in 6 creatures. This also means that if you can get your stealth over 60, you'd be immune to anything that doesn't have a natural WIS mod or actual skills on its sheet, giving a PvM reason to continue to invest over about 25 (which used to be the level you needed to get stealth to in order to travel almost the whole module in pretty effective safety).

However, a typo means it actually adds to listen twice - so basically adds (2-4)d20 to Listen. This means that going over 60 won't help you (but explains why sneak attack works pretty much every time for me).

I'll fix that, and cap the bonus at the area CL, since I have the code open.

[Hunter548]

That's answered in the post you quoted where mith says "I'll fix it".

Bugfixes usually aren't mentioned in the update thread.

[Freyason]

Ok I'll take it it was fixed

[MissEvelyn]

Um. Small perhaps silly suggestion:

Could it be changed so that stealth works as normal for those with pure rogue levels. But those with other classes still have the 25% chance of being spotted whenever? Just an idea.

This is an idea I can definitely get behind. Pure classes are in a sore spot right now, so this would be awesome!

[Cybernet21]

To state something,i think you cant draw enemies one by one if you are not a stealther anymore,it was a update sometime ago (something about having mobs agrooing their friends as well when attacked).

Well when i try using my bow from really far away with my newest character and am not stealthing all enemies close to the one i attacked come running at least (even before th first arrow flies,just when i click the enemy)

[Durvayas]

Yea. The AI got a boost. Depending on how smart/perceptive the type of enemy you're trying to fight, attempting to lure the mobs in one at a time might result in multiples aggro-ing you as they investigate who shot their buddy fred.

[Cybernet21]

Um. Small perhaps silly suggestion:

Could it be changed so that stealth works as normal for those with pure rogue levels. But those with other classes still have the 25% chance of being spotted whenever? Just an idea.

Or perhaps make so anyone with at least 3/4 of their levels on classes that have Hide and MS as class skills has stealth working normally?Rogue pure builds arent that common and are kinda weak,the stealth thing is just one of the problems i hear.

[Dredi]

Rogue builds are not that common and are kinda weak due to this issue > so give it to everyone.

I believe that was why the suggestion was made, to make rogue builds more viable.

That being said, a long time ago I recall managing to solo an end game level 30 dungeon with a level 13 non-combat rogue due to the way stealth, spawns and traps worked at the time.

Rogues do need some help, but I don't think this is the solution.

[Beneidalus]

Sockss suggestion of setting traps not being hostile, such that it doesn't break stealth, is absolutely fantastic. Not enough to make rogues good, but a great start.

In short though, Pickpocket isn't very viable for PvE. It's not time effictive. May as well kill the mobs. PP players.

[Dredi]

I believe traps breaking stealth is hard coded, I don't expect that is something you can change.

[Cybernet21]

Rogue builds are not that common and are kinda weak due to this issue > so give it to everyone.

I believe that was why the suggestion was made, to make rogue builds more viable.

That being said, a long time ago I recall managing to solo an end game level 30 dungeon with a level 13 non-combat rogue due to the way stealth, spawns and traps worked at the time.

Rogues do need some help, but I don't think this is the solution.

Well not every class has Hide and MS as a Class Skill and not everyone has 3/4 of a class that has that on level 30 (wich is at least 23 levels) and from what i hear that isnt the only issue with rogue pure classes.

But the point of this thread doesnt seem to be about how to fix/help rogue pure build but about the stealth and pickpocket system,and Rogues arent the only ones who use stealth and Pickpocket.

[Durvayas]

At this point, I actually suggest you guys make a new thread about traps(the saddest part of being a rogue is your traps killing an enemy yields no exp at all), as this thread was about pickpocketing, then derailed about spot bonuses(which have been more or less resolved), and now this.

Just to keep the conversation from being so muddled... make another thread?

[Cybernet21]

At this point, I actually suggest you guys make a new thread about traps(the saddest part of being a rogue is your traps killing an enemy yields no exp at all), as this thread was about pickpocketing, then derailed about spot bonuses(which have been more or less resolved), and now this.

Just to keep the conversation from being so muddled... make another thread?

It stayed on the topic since spot and sneaking is a really important for pickpocketing