Current Opinion of Clerics and Relevant Dynamics

[ChrisY]

Hi Everyone!

With the new change to the death system, I feel an itch to make a cleric.

However, as the last cleric (a whip wielding Pain of Lovi) I made was about about slightly more than 5 years ago, I'm a tad out of touch, especially with all the new mechanical changes!

Apart from Cleric being the primary class, there will be a little rogue multi, as per the lore for the clergy.

I am also thinking of putting in a little Blackguard, to reflect the deity's favour.

I would like to seek your opinion on
1) BG, worth it? And how many? Especially with all the new mechanics!
2) Feat recommendations (again, many changes since the last cleric I made lol), and the reasoning behind them, so I can better understand your point of view and see if it fits into the character's style.

Basically, the character will not be one to shy from battle, wading in with divine backing and smacking his foes left and right, while proclaiming to his party members

"Fear not! My god is with me! See the power that lays our enemies low! It can be yours too, if you worship blahblah!"

If you need more details to better answer, feel free to put them up here or PM me.

Thanks all for your time!

[miesny_jez]

Hey ChrisY,

Seems I am on the same wagon as You are as I was also curious about the cleric after all of the changes. Nor that I am an expert in cleric building.. but I think I know few things about building in NWN.. so:

Well first of all You got to ask Yourself a series of questions:
1) Is Your cleric going to be a CASTER cleric or a BATTLECLERIC as these two are fundamentally different to build?
2) Dex or St build if Battlecleric?
3) Do You want to (can due to diety) go Healer?
4) Will You aim for Divine Shield/Might build?
5) What is Your chosen diety protfolio (which domains) or if You want to ignore the portfolio and just take Travel/Plant, Travel/Trickery or Travel/Animal?
6) Interested in Epic Spells? If yes which ones?
7) Any particular classes You want to mix in due to RP ?


All of this will essentially form the backbone of Your build.

In my case it was Caster (so pumped WI), following portfolio (so Knowledge/Magic) and Healer DX build, though I think I will re-roll without the Healer and ST .. full plate and shield is just too tempting - i like the visual.

BG is nice but after building my own cleric I decided its not worth it actually at least for a caster cleric. In a battlecleric build it could be useful.. though You would not be aiming for the demon summons but rather sneak attack/saves/poison use which can be done with minimal BG investment.

For Caster cleric You would be probably aiming at spread of Cleric 23/other4/other3; Cleric 26/other4 OR Cleric30 (especially for healer)

For Battlecleric it would rather be something like: Cleric 17/Other3-4/Other9-10 OR Cleric 21/other4/other5

[Prestige]

BG is a pretty mediocre choice for Clerics, given that BG has two real viable buildpaths (4 BG for divine might + shield, which clerics can take anyway, or 16 BG for fiendish servant summon, which ruins your cleric's caster levels). BG also tends to be charisma heavy, which makes Clerics even more multi-attribute dependent.

What it sounds like you want to me is a standard, strength-based battlecleric - 23 cleric, 4 fighter, 3 rogue.


Build: 23 Cleric 4 FTR 3 Rog
Race: Human
Gifts: CON/WIS OR WIS/STR
Stats Pre-Gift
STR: 16 +
DEX: 8
CON: 12
INT: 14
CHA: 8
WIS: 16

1Cleric: Expertise/Improved Expertise, Travel + Trickery domains (Plant or War can substitute for trickery if your RP calls for it, but trickery gives invisibility - a useful utility if you get dispelled of all your buffs, plus 50% concealment for tanking PvE).
2C:
3C: Extend Spell
4C:
5C:
6C: Knockdown
7C:
8C:
9C: Blindfight
10C:
11C:
12C: Spell Focus: Conjuration
13C:
14C:
15C: Greater Spell Focus: Conjuration
16C:
17C:
18Ftr: Weapon Focus (SCIMITAR OR RAPIER)/ Improved Critical
19F: Improved Knockdown
20F:
21C: Epic Weapon Focus
22:
23:
24: EDK
25Rog:
26R:
27R: ESF: Discipline (Alternatively Armor skin or Prowess)
28C:
29F: Armorskin OR Prowess
30C: Hellball/ESF: Conj

Some notes about the build:
In PvE, you're an incredible tank. Magic Vestment gives you +5 AC Armor and Shield, and Shield of Faith gives +5 Deflection AC. You can buff yourself or your DPS up to incredible levels before a boss fight. You bring all the utility of a cleric in addition to tanking, too.
In PvP, your mileage will vary. If you fight a good mage, expect to have all those lovingly applied buffs (and, consequently, almost all of your combat prowess) morded off. If, however, you manage to survive without being morded, your AB breaks into the low 50s. Combine this with an EDK and all the healing and utility your cleric spellbook affords and you can deliver the word of your god 40 damage at a time to almost anyone.
You CAN do Evocation and replace EDK with Greater Ruin. Personally, I don't like this particularly: all it gives you is no biteback on your Gruinball combo, vs the utility of summoning angry weapon masters, low levels to portals, and dragons. It's ultimately up to you, though I think the Conjuration variant is superior.

[Opustus]

Sod the naysayers and become the unique and lovable BG/Cleric you always wanted to be, says I. It's a staple build.

For level spread, the Clerk23/BG4/Rogue3 ought to serve you well. With the cruelly overpowered spell Divine Power, the build authorities agree it's better to go Clerk18/BG2 pre-epic to have the stupidly good full BAB fourth attack.* The build is a bit feat starved, so you have to choose if you want to trade Improved Critical and Knockdown for epic feats.

Feats a la myself in no particular order: [pre-epics, 8 in total if human] Extend, PA, Cleave, Maximize, Divine Shield, Divine Might, WF, Blindfight; [epics, 5 in total] EWF, Armorskin, Optional1, Optional2, Optional3. I'd take Improved Crit, KD and one epic spell for the optionals, but wholly up to you.

Stats should be WIS20, CHA14-18 and rest into STR. Have enough INT to dump Discipline, Concentration, Spellcraft (as much as is required for the epic spells of your choosing) and Tumble with some UMD to access scrolls and wands. The rest is up to preference.

*Wiki quote: "Extra attacks per round can be gained by the increased base attack bonus (BAB). The number of extra attacks is determined by the usual progression based on the improved BAB, but each of the extra attacks will be free attacks (starting at full base attack). For example, a level 16 cleric (with a normal BAB of +12/+7/+2) will have, upon casting this spell, base attacks of +16/+11/+6/+16. These additional attacks do not show up on the character sheet." http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Divine_power

[susitsu]

It's literally weakening yourself by taking BG. An outright charisma cleric is stronger than a bg cleric dip. Sacrificing the fighter bonus feats to boost your ONE weak save as a cleric a little bit does not do it.

Fighter bonus feats do.

[Opustus]

Be that as it may, the OP's wish was to have a viable BG/Cleric build and no-one catered to it. People gimp their builds all the time to have the classes, skills and feats they want their characters to have.

On a powergaming note, I would argue that the bonus saves from BG levels can make a difference especially for a CHA Cleric. This is because CHA Clerics tend to be a bane to gear properly and the bonus to saves from BG helps with that particular problem, which gives the build an edge against spells. The only problem with my argument is that I don't know how gearing works in Arelith, i.e. what kind of endgame stuff a character is expected to get with relative effort. Also, I'd imagine that wizzie and sorciepoos are the absolute top dawgs of the food chain, so they're likely to win anyway, the bonus to saving throws be damned.

[Sockss]

Possibly touching on points people have already made, there's two paths really.

Caster Cleric - in which case, take the healer path as it's a flat buff. (5 effective hp / cleric level and some other goodies). You lose weapon & armour proficiencies, but, you'll be picking up at least 3 monk anyway for AC so this doesn't matter.

Battlecleric - in which case you're looking at 23/4/3 (Cleric / Fighter / Rogue) for optimum.

[susitsu]

Most would argue they're at the top, yeah. They're just kind of balanced by the fact that no matter how much discipline they want, it'll never be enough the moment any melee build is in range just off of a invis potion. Though, that's just one scenario of a million that can happen. There is a larger consensus that evo sorcs and wizards are the big daddy d-ahem. Anyway.

Gearing on Arelith often follows a pattern of three skill, two stat gear, aiming for four skill, two stat end-game. These are more difficult to achieve. Ive never played a build that recommended it, but I have heard of people running three stat, one skill? gear. I don't quite recall. But ever since the removal of Heal from gear, I guess that's just so much more viable in some cases.

I did at one point see, I think, 1 stat, five skill gear for an extremely skill reliant character that used spot, set trap, hide, ect. I wouldn't recommend not just following the pattern of int, con in said build, but y'know, it worked very well for them and they got some real notable kills.

As for the OP...what they wanted to know is "Is it worth it?"

I'm saying it's not.

It's absolutely not worth it.

It's better to not be a charisma cleric on Arelith, and it's definitely better to not take blackguard levels even as a charisma cleric on Arelith. Ive seen it done before, and it can work surprisingly well, especially in the right hands. But you should not take BG levels in it.

[Opustus]

Gearing on Arelith often follows a pattern of three skill, two stat gear, aiming for four skill, two stat end-game. These are more difficult to achieve. Ive never played a build that recommended it, but I have heard of people running three stat, one skill? gear. I don't quite recall. But ever since the removal of Heal from gear, I guess that's just so much more viable in some cases.

I did at one point see, I think, 1 stat, five skill gear for an extremely skill reliant character that used spot, set trap, hide, ect. I wouldn't recommend not just following the pattern of int, con in said build, but y'know, it worked very well for them and they got some real notable kills.

Does three skill, two stat into four skill, two stat mean this, for example: +3 Perform, +2 Strength into +4 Perform, +2 Strength? How do save bonuses and armor bonuses fit into gearing? Sorry for derailing the OP, please say if this bothers you.

[Lorkas]

Gearing on Arelith often follows a pattern of three skill, two stat gear, aiming for four skill, two stat end-game. These are more difficult to achieve. Ive never played a build that recommended it, but I have heard of people running three stat, one skill? gear. I don't quite recall. But ever since the removal of Heal from gear, I guess that's just so much more viable in some cases.

I did at one point see, I think, 1 stat, five skill gear for an extremely skill reliant character that used spot, set trap, hide, ect. I wouldn't recommend not just following the pattern of int, con in said build, but y'know, it worked very well for them and they got some real notable kills.

Does three skill, two stat into four skill, two stat mean this, for example: +3 Perform, +2 Strength into +4 Perform, +2 Strength? How do save bonuses and armor bonuses fit into gearing? Sorry for derailing the OP, please say if this bothers you.

It means for example:

+1 STR, +1 CON (2 ability/stat) +2 disc, +2 spellcraft, +2 taunt (3 skill)
vs
+1 STR, +1 CON (2 ability/stat) +2 disc, +2 spellcraft, +2 taunt, +2 concentration (4 skill)

[susitsu]

Universal saves are also popular and fall into the "greater enchantment" category, which is the same as that +1 charisma. Warlocks often gear up +1 con, +1 unisave, +2 discipline, +2 spellcraft, +2 concentration, and +2 Heal. except no heal anymore ok rip. So maybe an RP skill, like bluff. I'd go with bluff myself.

...but yeah, derailing a bit. Lorkas had it covered anyway.

[Barradoor]

Sod the naysayers and become the unique and lovable BG/Cleric you always wanted to be, says I. It's a staple build.

For level spread, the Clerk23/BG4/Rogue3 ought to serve you well.

no

[gilescorey]

The question is how much will a 4 dip into Blackguard change your roleplay any more significantly than a 4 dip into Fighter.

My guess is that it won't, so why make a weaker character if your roleplay will be the exact same?

[Shadowy Reality]

What next?

You go the cookie cutter fighter/WM/rogue build and just roleplay like you are an archmage? You can cast all spells from wands and scrolls after all.

[gilescorey]

That's complete, ridiculous hyperbole and you know it, Shadowy.

Roleplaying a "blackguard" in the PnP sense as somebody who's made pacts with fiends whilst having only fighter levels is obviously stupid, but Clerics and Blackguards are both divine classes. There's no set-in-stone rule for Blackguards on NWN or Arelith that says they're fiend-pacted; their only restriction is the same deity alignment restrictions given to all the divine classes. To my eyes, it's the same concept as a Cleric/Paladin - two classes that fulfil a sort of similar role of "violently religious zealot," just with different means. How far can you really differentiate the two classes on the same character without getting overly pedantic?

[Hunter548]

What next?

You go the cookie cutter fighter/WM/rogue build and just roleplay like you are an archmage? You can cast all spells from wands and scrolls after all.

That's a bit of a facile argument, since religious blackguards and clerics have a substantial amount of overlap, roleplay wise.

[Ork]

Roleplaying a "blackguard" in the PnP sense as somebody who's made pacts with fiends

This makes my heart happy.

[Shadowy Reality]

What next?

You go the cookie cutter fighter/WM/rogue build and just roleplay like you are an archmage? You can cast all spells from wands and scrolls after all.

That's a bit of a facile argument, since religious blackguards and clerics have a substantial amount of overlap, roleplay wise.

That's the point, they surely overlap but they definitely aren't the same, the RP must have something else there. Don't get me wrong, it's difficult to roleplay subtle differences as these and I give Kudos to those that can pull it off, but I'm not a fan of cutting off certain builds just because a variant is slightly stronger.

Between the fighter and the BG, the fighter variant gets more feats (and is less feat starved) than the BG variant. But there's definitely merits to the BG build, a lot more base saves, which are important in certain situations (Dragon Wing Buffets, Assassin's Death Attack, and AoE timed spells). You also get access to Divine Might/Shield for an extra edge, albeit for a short duration.

[flower]

Také a healer, dip in monk (3 lvls?), add rouge, and go battlecleric way with staff.

It counts as two weapons, it adds +2 ab for large weapon, uses monk AB progression.Wis counts for DCs of spells and your ac as well. My friend told me that lack of shield hurts, but overheal and other perks of healer compensate for it. Also the number of attacks is crazy.

[gilescorey]

You also get access to Divine Might/Shield for an extra edge, albeit for a short duration.

Clerics can also select these feats.

[ChrisY]

Thanks for all the replies, guys! All your input is really informative.

I am very grateful.

No worries about the slight off-topic, we're all here to learn!

Just one more question though, what's a charisma cleric? Are they like the non-smiting cousins of smite builds that I have seen in BoW / Antiworld (which I have not been successful in replicating lol )

[High Primate]

What next?

You go the cookie cutter fighter/WM/rogue build and just roleplay like you are an archmage? You can cast all spells from wands and scrolls after all.

I did this and no one noticed.

[susitsu]

Normally, you would just go 8 charisma/whatever is the lowest possible for your race. A charisma battle-cleric is one who makes the feat stretch for power attack, then divine might and maybe divine shield as well as actually brings their charisma up some.

Not only that, clerics already have a massive buff time and you're just kind of giving yourself more wind up time before finslly attacking.

You're already stretching yourself between boosting a handful of stats and you have to sacrifice in feats for it is why I don't really recommend it, but thematically, Ive always loved the build.

That's a build I would suggest giving up spell foci on and focusing all your epic feats into combat.

Also, if anyone ever suggests you take the skill heal in a cleric heavy build, you spit in their face. The skill stops being even remotely relevant to clerics at level 12.

[Anatida]

I would actually love a cleric/BG build that is viable - for RP purposes. I can see the merit in the Cleric/Ftr/Rogue and could make that work, but a BG would be better for what I have in mind.

That said, I am the worst at figuring out how to balance that need for WIS + CHA + STR for a battle cleric build. Would definitely want EMD for roleplay purposes as well.

Also, Does ECL on Arelith reduce the total levels a PC can take, or does it only affect how quickly you earn XP? I think it's the latter but I'm not sure.

Any tips there? Thank you

[susitsu]

It affects how quickly you level. Subtracts from your EXP gain and means nothing at 30. I'm uh, seriously going to advise against the cleric BG because without fighter feats, you're not going to be very happy. But as long as you have full melee capabilities, while inferior to a real battle-cleric, you should function pretty fine in PvE.