Arelith

It also encourages the supremely suboptimal aesthetic choice of single-kama monks.

Astral wrote:

dallion43 wrote: Meaning it is no longer a magical bonus, but a standard 3/4 BaB ab?

Yes. Except that you still get the bonus in epics, for now.

So Bob takes 16 wizard pre epic, he gets 12 bab from them, and then he goes 4 fighter and gets to 16 bab at lvl 20. Then Bob takes 7 more wizard lvls and gets +2 ab (that does count to the cap, unlike the bab) that shouldnt exist.

I checked this 5 minutes ago on a new 3 lvl SS(+1ab bonus) and on old 8 lvl SS(+2ab bonus).
Both +1 and +2 are included in the +20 cap = magical bonus, and both new and old spellswords bonuses in the log look identical, respective to SS lvl, including the description for numbers of attacks.

Maybe this wasn't implemented yet live or I misunderstood something?

It's still magical AB. However your AB/ APR should work like a proper 3/4 class.

So a level 4 spellsword level 3 fighter should have 2APR and 7 AB (used to be 1 APR 7 AB)

A level 3 spellsword/level 4 fighter should have 2APR and 7 AB (used to be 1 APR 6 AB)

Kirito, is +1 AB at levels 23 and 27 of spellsword still a thing? And if it is, is it staying that way?

Was the monk class fixed for all spellswords or only those made after the changes? I have a SS pre-change and don't know if monk is still ruined for him.

prechange SS 27/ (with working) monk 3 sounds terrifying lol

It's a str half ork that's going to use a quarter staff. So I can get two weapon fighting and stuff and flurry and keep dex at 8. Using transmutation foci to shore up my stats.

It's a good build in the sense that I can hit like 70 ac and have an obscene number of attacks per round and overwhelming damage. I just need to know if monk was fixed for all spellswords or just post nerf ones.

After more toying around with the numbers, I see that a spellsword can abuse the magical ab in epics for up to 3 ab. Meaning a spellsword can reach 24 bab by lvl 30 if they take 14 SS pre-epic and 9 more in epics, which isnt a particularly bad level progression on its own and will put you 1 bab below the WM. THIS is broken, guys. I hope you understand that. It's gonna look silly.

Astral wrote:After more toying around with the numbers, I see that a spellsword can abuse the magical ab in epics for up to 3 ab. Meaning a spellsword can reach 24 bab by lvl 30 if they take 14 SS pre-epic and 9 more in epics, which isnt a particularly bad level progression on its own and will put you 1 bab below the WM. THIS is broken, guys. I hope you understand that. It's gonna look silly.

I'm not sure I understand you?

14 SS pre epic gives AB 10, (BAB 7 +3 ) 6 fighter gives 16 AB / 4APR pre epic. (BAB 13 + 3)

9 SS+1fighter post epic gives AB 6 ( 5 BAB + 1) for a total of 22... this is 3 less than a fighter...

And weapon masters get even higher?

Also clerics get 15 + 5 with the option of +5 with spell for 25 same as straight fighter

I mean, the lore of the the spellsword is that you've mastered both Arcane, and martial skills. You should just be the best of both. It's not an easy feat.

Kirito wrote:

Astral wrote:After more toying around with the numbers, I see that a spellsword can abuse the magical ab in epics for up to 3 ab. Meaning a spellsword can reach 24 bab by lvl 30 if they take 14 SS pre-epic and 9 more in epics, which isnt a particularly bad level progression on its own and will put you 1 bab below the WM. THIS is broken, guys. I hope you understand that. It's gonna look silly.

I'm not sure I understand you?

14 SS pre epic gives AB 10, (BAB 7 +3 ) 6 fighter gives 16 AB / 4APR pre epic. (BAB 13 + 3)

9 SS+1fighter post epic gives AB 6 ( 5 BAB + 1) for a total of 22... this is 3 less than a fighter...

And weapon masters get even higher?

Also clerics get 15 + 5 with the option of +5 with spell for 25 same as straight fighter

You take 14 spellsword for 10 bab, 6 fighter for 6 more, so far we're on 16. You get 5 more from flat bab progression in epics for 21 (which is all you should get) and then you also get +3 ab from taking lvls 15th to 23rd spellsowrd in epic lvls. So that's 24 total. 23 if you take 16 spellsword 4 fighter and 7 more in epics. Its, in my opinion, significantly higher than all the rest of the 3/4 classes who take 4 fighter pre-epic.

Astral wrote:
You take 14 spellsword for 10 bab, 6 fighter for 6 more, so far we're on 16. You get 5 more from flat bab progression in epics for 21 (which is all you should get) and then you also get +3 ab from taking lvls 15th to 23rd spellsowrd in epic lvls. So that's 24 total. 23 if you take 16 spellsword 4 fighter and 7 more in epics. Its, in my opinion, significantly higher than all the rest of the 3/4 classes who take 4 fighter pre-epic.

You don't get the +2 for level 15 and 19 (just like any other 3/4 class)

So you're 1 higher than bard/rogue and 3 lower than cleric

Alright, so, for those of us who don't want to single-wield a kama. What've yall got for the new spellsword setup?

Kirito wrote:

Astral wrote:
You take 14 spellsword for 10 bab, 6 fighter for 6 more, so far we're on 16. You get 5 more from flat bab progression in epics for 21 (which is all you should get) and then you also get +3 ab from taking lvls 15th to 23rd spellsowrd in epic lvls. So that's 24 total. 23 if you take 16 spellsword 4 fighter and 7 more in epics. Its, in my opinion, significantly higher than all the rest of the 3/4 classes who take 4 fighter pre-epic.

You don't get the +2 for level 15 and 19 (just like any other 3/4 class)

So you're 1 higher than bard/rogue and 3 lower than cleric

Okay, I was unaware that 15th and 19th wont give you magical ab if taken in epics. So my bad there. For a moment, I thought I might take a late game 3 spellsword dip instead of rogue just for the extra ab on my monk paladin

Astral wrote:

Kirito wrote:

Astral wrote:
You take 14 spellsword for 10 bab, 6 fighter for 6 more, so far we're on 16. You get 5 more from flat bab progression in epics for 21 (which is all you should get) and then you also get +3 ab from taking lvls 15th to 23rd spellsowrd in epic lvls. So that's 24 total. 23 if you take 16 spellsword 4 fighter and 7 more in epics. Its, in my opinion, significantly higher than all the rest of the 3/4 classes who take 4 fighter pre-epic.

You don't get the +2 for level 15 and 19 (just like any other 3/4 class)

So you're 1 higher than bard/rogue and 3 lower than cleric

Okay, I was unaware that 15th and 19th wont give you magical ab if taken in epics. So my bad there. For a moment, I thought I might take a late game 3 spellsword dip instead of rogue just for the extra ab on my monk paladin

It's okay that was part of the reason the change went in, to correct the epic AB from non epic levels

Could Wizard 21/Ranger9 work on a half orc using double sided axe? The only issues I can think of are relatively low number of feats and a bit awkward leveling, since both 21W and 9R are important levels.

One Two Three Five wrote:Alright, so, for those of us who don't want to single-wield a kama. What've yall got for the new spellsword setup?

Are you looking for a dex or str setup?

Strength, I think. I've only run dexers so far.

Zavandar's got what is probably the most stable strength build posted in the previous page of the thread, here:

viewtopic.php?f=36&t=13550&start=150

You can run this reasonably as a dwarf, focusing in battleaxe (and using a waraxe instead, feat transferrance, etc.) and skipping on exotic prof.

You can also run it as a sun elf, also skipping exotic prof, and either going for a moonblade or a scim/rapier.

The dwarf version is marginally stronger than the human, the elf version marginally weaker, but all three should be fairly solid.

Zavandar wrote:Alrighty. After mulling it over for a bit and talking to some people, I believe that this is the best monk variant there is:



Works with most other races, as they can just drop arcane defense: abjuration.

I think the math can speak for itself. This build seems a little bit on the super strong side..

Alternatively, you can be heroically patient by skipping EWF and wielding some other weapon until you get the monk levels, thus opening up another feat.

Scurvy Cur wrote:It also encourages the supremely suboptimal aesthetic choice of single-kama monks.

This can look cool if you have the right outfit. If it's wearing that dorky monk clothing with no covering on the shoulders then yes, it will look stupid.

High Primate wrote: Alternatively, you can be heroically patient by skipping EWF and wielding some other weapon until you get the monk levels, thus opening up another feat.

and WF...

I might suggest taking SF and GSF transmutation at 1 and 3 for infinite burning hands, that sure made the first few awkward spellsword levels easy for me..

@High Primate & Freyason

Waiting until epics to take monk could, in theory, save you from taking exotic.

The problem is budgeting your feats. How would you move the two pre-epic feats you use for wf: kama and exotic into epics?

Right, just saying you'd have to hold on WF not just EWF. Didn't look if it was possible, but if it is it would be good build for masochists.

It's probably going to come out worse by a good margin, actually. From my tinkering with Spellsword, they usually have plenty of pre epic feats, and can afford the exotic prof, but blowing an epic feat on a build that gets a lot of mileage out of:

EMA
EWF
Askin
Eprow
ESF: Disc
ESF: Trans
ESF: Abj

And probably already lacks the room to take all of them is a very painful proposition.