Looking for Dragonshape Druid

[therf]

So far i only found this build as a comment and i copied to a document here:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jCP ... K7fWQ/edit

It was posted on february 2018 don't know what has changed but i can't seem to get Greater ruin on level 28.

And i don't understand why it has so much intelligence even has gift for it. What skill would really need other then Concentration, Heal, SpellCraft and maybe tumble? Wouldn't it be better to drop int and focus on con or give some points to str for carrying purposes?

I am also open to different dragonshape build. Any help would be appreciated.

[Sea Shanties]

If I remember right you can't take an epic spell on a druid epic bonus feat so you'd want to take something like greater ruin at 27 and epic evo focus at 28.

That build is really arbitrary.. You need 25 wisdom to get dragon shape and all druids need epic conjuration and transmutation focuses and want dragon knight. Beyond that it's pretty wide open. This build is okay, you could take combat feats like expertise, blind fight and/or knockdown instead of evo focuses if you want or something more out there like abjuration focuses. Craft wand/scribe scroll is also okay if you want 3rd tier enchantment.

I think all the int. was taken because the more skill points the better. You do want to max discipline if you can, even if it's cross classed, and skills like hide & MS, parry, bluff and disable trap/open lock can be useful on a druid too. If you want more strength for quality of life or constitution for survivability that works. Druids are pretty forgiving, really.

[therf]

I think i will aim for 12 int maybe 14 after i calculate what skills are really needed. Heal points doesn't need to be maxed imo i guess 20 should be sufficient for easy early gameplay. I am very new to arelith how does craft wand/scribe scroll work for enchantment? How many points shall i put them if i want to enchant stuff?

As far as i understand evocation focuses are mostly just to prevent backlashes for ruin and hellball so it doesn't seem that great to sacrifice 3 feats for that.

GSF Conjuration seems great for +1 level for summons, but i can't see why it is important to have ESF Conjuration or transmutation focuses other than quality of life stuff according to wiki?

Thanks for the response

[Sea Shanties]

ESF conjuration gives big boosts to your summons and let's you -yoink people (teleporting them to you.)

ESF trans gives +2 to ability buff spells (and potions), extends Aura of Vitality (a very necessary spell for druids) to turns/level and lets you create portals. It's all too good to live without but you could potentially make do with GSF trans.

Extend spell is also pretty necessary.

Scribe scroll and craft wand (and brew potion) are feats that let you create the item in question at a gold and xp cost. They're useful for making backup spells and for generating income (barkskin, stone skin and freedom wands are always in demand as are level 9 summon creature and elemental swarm scrolls) but also with the way the Arelith enchantment basin works if you take one of those feats on a druid you can be a "tier 3" enchanter and have the best shot at enchanting high level items.. You have to read about that elsewhere, it's complicated but you don't need to worry about it starting out. You also don't NEED to be a "tier 3" enchanter. "Tier 2" will suffice for a druid more or less and you'll be that automatically. Like i said.. it's complicated to explain.

[therf]

After thinking giving more points to con dex or str wont matter in the end because shapeshifting will replace the values. Why do you think i should max disciple by the way? I thin max i can get is 16 discipline which wont seem to differ vs high level knockdowns since average melee will have around 45 ab.

I also thought giving 4 levels to monk to get wis modifier to ac, discipline class skill and to achieve 4 attacks per round( though i don’t know if that applies to shapeshifting). How would that give me disadvantage other then loosing monolith forms and easier to get dispelled?

[Skarain]

STR is a quality of life, allowing you to carry things better. CON helpx you survive if you have to drop out of form for whatever reason. DEX you really do not need.

Regarding discipline, mobs spam it aswell. Getting knocked down just generally sucks.

Dragonshape STR will still get you reasonably high along with a high disc item to merge with form. Red Dragon is 56 STR, Green and Bronze are 48. Then +3 from Second Skin, +4 STR from Aura of Vitality, +3-7 STR from Bull's Strength. That's 10-14 Buffed STR, getting you to the Soft Cap of Attributes (+12), and reason why ESF: Trans is 'mandatory' if you aim to use a Shapechange at endgame, you need it to buff your buffs.

Add that to Dragonshape: Red 68 STR, Green/Bronze 60 STR. That is a +30, or +34 to Discipline from raw Strength alone. Add in that +16 cross-classed Discipline, it's 46 or 50 Discipline. Plus maybe 2-5 Disc more from an item. That's pretty reasonable numbers, don't you think?

Regarding your question of monk dip, pure druid gives better caster level, thus harder to dispel. The elemental forms hit harder than dragon, and the fire one have balor hellfire shield so you reflect damage back if you are hit. The elemental forms also have more utility as you can choose any of four to best fit the situation.

Dragonshape may have the problem in some places to get in stuck in doors and the likes i believe, since the hitbox is also larger.

In the end however, i recommend you play what draws you more. Dragonshape is a cool thing even if the ultimate min-maxer will think elementals are better. Let them, and fill your own niche.

[Sea Shanties]

After thinking giving more points to con dex or str wont matter in the end because shapeshifting will replace the values. Why do you think i should max disciple by the way? I thin max i can get is 16 discipline which wont seem to differ vs high level knockdowns since average melee will have around 45 ab.

I also thought giving 4 levels to monk to get wis modifier to ac, discipline class skill and to achieve 4 attacks per round( though i don’t know if that applies to shapeshifting). How would that give me disadvantage other then loosing monolith forms and easier to get dispelled?

They nerfed dragonshape to make a monk dip much less useful-- no extra attacks and no bonus wisdom AC. There's not really much reason to take monk on a druid any more unless you're really into a totem shape, and even then it's iffy.

You can always plan to dip monk at level 28 and see if you'd rather have that or monolith shapes. Then if you think you made the wrong decision it's not a big deal to re-level a bit. I think having the flexibility of dragon shape AND monolith shape is the best druid option right now myself.

And what Skarain said about discipline is right on, you get so much strength bonus in dragon or some elemental shapes that +16 from cross classing really matters.

[RedGiant]

Everything I say here will be counter-intuitive and "niche", but to maximize current dragonshape, there are some less travelled roads that might actually fit the bill. Some have already been mentioned elsewhere that pair well [viewtopic.php?f=36&t=24493], at least as well as they are going to, with the classics probably being ranger and barbarian. Really, any full BAB and discipline class can work added on top of the 25 druid levels one generally takes to get the free dragonshape feat.

Here is where I will likely get mocked, but remember, you can still get dragonshape the old-fashioned way, i.e. with 30 wisdom. In this scenario, you only need a minimum of 18 lvls of Druid (or 10 lvls of Shifter). I will say no more, but let your imagination go wild with how to do this and the 12 possible (15 for shifter) levels you have to play with.

Keep in mind if you go this route, Dragon Shape WILL be your thing....maybe your only thing. You will be a truly sub-par Druid, which most people can't abide. But, if you really want to pour it all into the shape, this is another way. Pay particular attention to the epic feat progression here, since you will need greater wisdom in abundance to pull this off. Also, you will need to take your final shaping level in a class which actually has Dragonshape on its feat list (druid or shifter). Physical stats do not matter, since you form will overwrite them, but feats absolutely do. [This is why the build you quote more or less ignores physical stats.]


Finally, be prepared to cry if the feat gets reworked. Mine has been relevelled to 30 no less than three times (due to changes with druid, monk, and the shape itself) with no rebuild, no sympathy, and, in fact, no shortage of unhelpful glee expressed by the melee-tuner community.

Good luck!

[BobTheSkull]

Though the extra acral is always nice and the 2-5 BAB is nice as well, taking any less than 26 druid will leave you very impotent. The reason being the change to the dispel cap. Druid is very but reliant. You have no gear stacking. You are getting 3 str/dex/con from gear. With aura of vitality you get +4 to str/dex/con. With transmutation focus you can very safely make the +12 cap to str. Which is 5 AB, the Mac you could possibly get from full BAB class (though still less one attack). Not to mention death immune, spell resistance up to 38, freedom of movement, regeneration (incredibly useful as otherwise you are limited to potion healing only in form), premonition, barkskn.

Further, never discount summons. Max druid with epic caster bonus gives you very strong summons and will be your bread and butter.

Any PvP you get in will dispel you. If your are full or near full druid you will be much harder to dispel. You are looking at losing 6-8 AB and losing 7AC to your dragon form if you are dispelled.
Full build you can get just shy of 70AC and 46-51 AB.

Now the single worst thing about dragon form. It is huge. You do not fit through any doorways, you get stuck on everything, and you are slow (all forms have a 5% movement speed debuff). You can not be a full time dragon. You simply can't get through all the terrain obstacles with only 3 uses of the feat.

[BobTheSkull]

As to totem vs mono.

Totem/monk will have the best AC in the game. And that is all it has. You have to understand that totem was well Balanced on its release but every class has gotten significant power increases as has gear power. So the totem was never nerfed, but the totem's relative power is much lower. Zero +AB so even a +1/DR will render you impotent. You can not hurt iron golems, and they are very common. Luckily your summon can. You can eventually get dragon shape which is game changing as you have an ability to damage targets in your own if you need. Oh and if you meet a troll you lose. Zero ability to add fire/acid to your damage type. Over all, totem is a highly defensive one trick pony.

Monk with totem: if you go totem 110% dip monk. You get 15+ ac from it, deflection from arrow, flurry of blows (all totem's are unarmed), and monk attack bonus progression.

Final totem note: you can do totem druid with humility very easily.

Mono druid is much more versatile.

A side note ok mono, I would always go EDR mono personally. This does mean you will not get dragon shape! But mono forms are so good on their own. No monk so sinking deep into wisdom gets you no where. But EDR is fantastic and stacks with DR from form (key for fire form punching bag). EDR druid can not go humility.

You choose the form suited to need and condition. Need high DR? Stone, need high AC? Air, need fire immune or Regen? Water. Need to be the punching bag that Burns? Fire!

And it makes the druid play style much more versatile and dynamic, wish is simply more engaging and fun.

Issues with mono druid is that your ac is lower than totem, and you do not get discipline or tumble as class skill because no monk dip.

[Skarain]

Not to mention level 28 Druid Air Elemental form is perma-hasted. "Travel like the wind", as they say.