How many sorc lvls does a TF really need?

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Oshido
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How many sorc lvls does a TF really need?

Post by Oshido » Sun May 12, 2019 5:05 pm

As asked in title.
Does a TF lose a lot from only going 19 or 20 lvls sorc? pros vs cons?

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Szaren
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Re: How many sorc lvls does a TF really need?

Post by Szaren » Sun May 12, 2019 5:35 pm

Oshido wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 5:05 pm
As asked in title.
Does a TF lose a lot from only going 19 or 20 lvls sorc? pros vs cons?
Do you want to beat Spell Resistance reliably? If so, then I argue that 19 or 20 CL, even with Spell Penetration feats, isn't enough.
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Re: How many sorc lvls does a TF really need?

Post by Archnon » Sun May 12, 2019 5:51 pm

Area affect spells don't use spell resistance right? So you could still carpet bomb an area effectively

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Re: How many sorc lvls does a TF really need?

Post by Astral » Sun May 12, 2019 6:00 pm

30.
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Szaren
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Re: How many sorc lvls does a TF really need?

Post by Szaren » Sun May 12, 2019 6:03 pm

Archnon wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 5:51 pm
Area affect spells don't use spell resistance right? So you could still carpet bomb an area effectively
Uh, which spells do you refer to?
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Szaren
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Re: How many sorc lvls does a TF really need?

Post by Szaren » Sun May 12, 2019 6:07 pm

Astral wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 6:00 pm
30.
I'd say 26 TF (with all Spell Pen feats) / 4 fighter (For EDR).

If you can get a Harper Token the "No spell components" class is a no-brainer.

Edit: I stated the wrong spread by accident.
Last edited by Szaren on Thu May 16, 2019 9:24 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: How many sorc lvls does a TF really need?

Post by Astral » Sun May 12, 2019 6:12 pm

Szaren wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 6:07 pm
Astral wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 6:00 pm
30.
I'd say 24 TF (with all Spell Pen feats) / 6 fighter (For EDR).

If you can get a Harper Token the "No spell components" class is a no-brainer.
Hmm you're right. 6 fighter for EDR is indeed useful and more important than those 6 CL.

I wonder if CL from harper counts towards damage dice of some spells which scale infinitely. Could be fun as 19/5/6 Although that's not enough sorc lvls for both GR and Hellball. Might wanna take 4 fighter if you get a harper token.
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Re: How many sorc lvls does a TF really need?

Post by Oshido » Sun May 12, 2019 10:25 pm

honestly I was trying to find a way to make 23 sorce/4bg or pally, 3 fighter. probably orog or human.

going for edr 3, esf disc, esf evo, hellball and gruin.

You say to take spell penetration feats?

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Re: How many sorc lvls does a TF really need?

Post by Kenji3108 » Sun May 12, 2019 11:27 pm

26 TF / 4 BG (or paladin) with Epic Spell Pen (+6)

This way, it'll always beat a Drow's SR, while an lvl30 monk has a 35% chance of resisting spells.

It also has high saves.

Here are two sample builds with gear and skills listed:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

GRuin, with RNG, can perform worse than Maximized IGMS. Of course, it can't be resisted, but its 1-time use and limited range make it undesirable. There are better trade-offs for an epic feat.
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Re: How many sorc lvls does a TF really need?

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Mon May 13, 2019 2:27 am

Archnon wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 5:51 pm
Area affect spells don't use spell resistance right? So you could still carpet bomb an area effectively
This is false. Being AoE doesn't mean the spell can't be resisted. There are some AoEs that can't, but the only relevant in this thread is thunderclap. Pretty sure all the rest of my epic TF spells that are aoe apply spell resistance.
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Re: How many sorc lvls does a TF really need?

Post by Archnon » Mon May 13, 2019 3:02 am

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 2:27 am
Archnon wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 5:51 pm
Area affect spells don't use spell resistance right? So you could still carpet bomb an area effectively
This is false. Being AoE doesn't mean the spell can't be resisted. There are some AoEs that can't, but the only relevant in this thread is thunderclap. Pretty sure all the rest of my epic TF spells that are aoe apply spell resistance.
Thanks for the Clarification!

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Re: How many sorc lvls does a TF really need?

Post by Oshido » Mon May 13, 2019 10:17 pm

I like the 24 /6 tf/bg build with spell penetration feats Kenji posted. Is it possible I wonder to move first 3 lvls up earlier and give up toughness for divine shield.
Also, ditch hellball so you can take both epic spell Penn and esf disc.?

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Re: How many sorc lvls does a TF really need?

Post by Kenji3108 » Mon May 13, 2019 11:50 pm

Oshido wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 10:17 pm
I like the 24 /6 tf/bg build with spell penetration feats Kenji posted. Is it possible I wonder to move first 3 lvls up earlier and give up toughness for divine shield.
Also, ditch hellball so you can take both epic spell Penn and esf disc.?
That was my first iteration of the build, but I realized having 14 AC on top of 20 AC still isn't going to matter as much unless you're going for at least 40AC. So having even numbers of levels pre-epic for all classes will ensure maximum saves. You'll want to spend 1 round using Bigby/Thunderclap/Hellball CC'ing any enemy than using divine shield.

As for ditching Hellball, that's certainly doable, and it'll allow you to take 4th blackguard level later for higher discipline dump. However, Hellball is a AoE KD that doesn't harm self. Use it to target self to clear yourself a path if surrounded. I've found it awesome to have.

ESF: Discipline can be negated by using pure discipline gear to pad the discipline, which is why I have listed out all the possible maximum discipline gear there is.
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Re: How many sorc lvls does a TF really need?

Post by The1Kobra » Tue May 14, 2019 12:15 am

It is entirely possible to get 42 SR on a cleric or druid, though. Any TF that doesn't invest heavily in levels or feats is going to have trouble breaking that. TFs don't have many (really any) other offensive options, and no means of reducing SR, so spell penetration is big for them. It's really going to hurt if your 24 TF build can't break your target's SR. 32 SR isn't that uncommon among monsters either.

Personally? When looking at TF builds I like the 27/3 Sorc/Pal Or BG, or the 25/5 Sorc/SD combo, but I wouldn't splash any more than that. Even the 25/5 is stretching it.

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Re: How many sorc lvls does a TF really need?

Post by Archnon » Tue May 14, 2019 3:08 am

Taking harper levels counts towards overcoming SR, right?

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Re: How many sorc lvls does a TF really need?

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Tue May 14, 2019 4:27 am

Archnon wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 3:08 am
Taking harper levels counts towards overcoming SR, right?
Dependent on the path- yes. Not all paths preserve caster level (entirely). http://wiki.arelith.com/Harper_scout#Harper_Mage
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Re: How many sorc lvls does a TF really need?

Post by BobTheSkull » Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:36 pm

Outside of imp, is there any way/build to make a TF be solo viable?

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Re: How many sorc lvls does a TF really need?

Post by Gazfrost » Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:16 pm

I had a TF / SD with HIPS
Sneaking around blasting enemy's then you disapier and come back blasting, it does not fail.

Summon SD shadow does not work, the other SD abilities work..

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Re: How many sorc lvls does a TF really need?

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:22 am

BobTheSkull wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:36 pm
Outside of imp, is there any way/build to make a TF be solo viable?
Shelgarn's persistent blade is surprisingly durable up until level eight, when you get wall of fire. Treating your familiar and your shelgarn as mini-tanks to gather all your enemies into one spot will generally do the trick.

Once you get wall of fire and lesser missile storm, a little prep work leading up to the next encounter makes basically everything within 5 CR of your character's level cake. My TF is level 24, and he still uses his shelgarn's persistent blade to round up enemies for destruction. Liberal applications of darkness help.

True story- once carried two corpses out of Kholingen by myself at level nine- with 9 strength.. So... I'd basically say that you have to actively try to make a TF not solo-able.
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Re: How many sorc lvls does a TF really need?

Post by BobTheSkull » Mon Jul 08, 2019 12:07 pm

[/quote]
Liberal applications of darkness help.
[/quote]

How are you applying ultra vision to yourself? With darkness I can see it, but without ultra vision it ruins the potential applications of it.

Ultravision potions could work, but that requires finding a very reliable supply (only ever seen sold once), and costly as you would be them full time.

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Re: How many sorc lvls does a TF really need?

Post by SayaMustFight » Mon Jul 08, 2019 4:22 pm

You can fight in darkness without ultravision. Just use aoe spells that don't depend on you seeing the enemy.
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Re: How many sorc lvls does a TF really need?

Post by Sea Shanties » Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:12 pm

You can also stand in darkness and use longer ranged spells on creatures outside it, or keep a darkness cloud on the other side as a place to retreat if necessary. Neither are totally reliable but they help.

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Re: How many sorc lvls does a TF really need?

Post by BobTheSkull » Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:32 pm

I feel really dumb for not considering that. I was so locked into the targeted style of all other builds. Both are really good tips.

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Re: How many sorc lvls does a TF really need?

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Mon Jul 08, 2019 9:00 pm

BobTheSkull wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 12:07 pm
Liberal applications of darkness help.
How are you applying ultra vision to yourself? With darkness I can see it, but without ultra vision it ruins the potential applications of it.

Ultravision potions could work, but that requires finding a very reliable supply (only ever seen sold once), and costly as you would be them full time.
You don't! :)

Referencing the tips Saya and Sea mentioned, remember that you have unlimited casts of all your spells (spell components not withstanding- darkness doesn't use them, anyway). This means that you can drop multiple spheres of darkness that are not overlapped before you initiate actual hostile targeting.

There are some mobs that will charge your current sphere of darkness that you're casting from, even if they don't have ultravision themselves. When that happens, you leave your current sphere of darkness, and run to the next closest one that isn't over-lapping, and your Shelgarn or Familiar can pick up the aggro in the old sphere as you re-break LoS. (Note: Again, some planning goes a long way- remember which order you cast the darkness spheres in, so that you don't run for one that's about to disappear. I tend place them down in such an order that I can make circuits of them in a single direction to avoid losing track in suddenly hectic fights).

While you won't have ultravision to directly target the monster, you can then target the ground inside/around the darkness with AoE's, finishing off anything that gets lost inside from trying to chase you.
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Re: How many sorc lvls does a TF really need?

Post by BobTheSkull » Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:30 pm

That tactical explination was very helpful, though i might need a few more levels before i implement it, at lvl 6 the darkness only lasts 4 casts before needing to be re applied.

(huge theory craft nerd!)

Does anyone have insight/opinions/comments/or druthers as to optimal TF builds? I have seen call for max dex/19 CHA, max con/19 CHA and a split with 26 Dex/34CHA. Anyone with the play experience want to weigh in on which is preferred and why? Assume primary TF with only small dip.

Also if anyone can link build/feat order and gearing i'd be curious to see.

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