Blackguard Summons

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Straydog
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Blackguard Summons

Post by Straydog » Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:37 pm

So I just learned to my disappointment that you cannot control both an undead and a fiend at the same time as a blackguard. Now I find myself with a question. At Blackguard level 7, according to the wiki, the Mohrg upgrades to a Voidwraith (cool) and the Succubus upgrades to a Vrock. Huh.

The Vrock has 3 attacks, +28/+23/+18, which deal 4-24+10 (19-20/x2) damage. Wow! It also has a crapton of insane bonuses, DR5 and 10% immunity, Improved Invisibility, Acid Breath, Knockdown, a Howl Stun (not sure what that is but it sounds cool,) Blind Fight and bonkers SR.

The Voidwraith on the other hand has... 2 attacks, +20/+15, which do slightly more damage, but with a lower crit range, 4-24+13 (20/x2). They have 50% concealment (but so does the Vrock, Imp invisibility,) and they are undead, so immune to crits and sneak attacks... On the other hand, they do 1d2 CON drain on hit, and heal themselves. I assume this has no save.

My question is, does the CON drain really balance out the rather insane bonuses of the Vrock? (I think the Vrock will be more powerful than my actual character: lol.) An extra attack, much higher AB, increased crit, knockdown, acid clouds, ridiculously tanky... To be honest, I'm not really seeing it. Maybe the CON drain is really nasty in PvP? 2 CON damage against a creature with 15 hit dice is basically as good as 15 damage right? Still though, I don't know. 20 AB is pretty low, even if you get it as early as possible, which is level 13.

Looking for wisdom, maybe there is something I'm missing, but it seems like Create Undead is actually pretty garbagy, especially since according to the wiki the Vrock upgrades to a Glabrezu at level 9 and the Voidwraith doesn't upgrade to Doomknight until level 11, and the Doomknight also has only two attacks, whereas the Glabrezu has 4 and a 16-20 x4 crit range which is pretty nutty.

What am I missing?

TimeAdept
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Re: Blackguard Summons

Post by TimeAdept » Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:12 am

The Create Undead of Bg is purposefully bad compared to the Outsider, unfortunately.

Straydog
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Re: Blackguard Summons

Post by Straydog » Wed Feb 06, 2019 5:25 am

That's demoralizing

Beard Master Flex
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Re: Blackguard Summons

Post by Beard Master Flex » Wed Feb 06, 2019 5:36 am

I don't think they share a cooldown? I cant remember. So one is useful as a backup encase your main man gets popped.

Unless I'm completely misremembering my time playing as one lol.

TimeAdept
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Re: Blackguard Summons

Post by TimeAdept » Wed Feb 06, 2019 5:55 am

Yeah, no cooldown shared. The intention is that the undead is just a backup summon when the big boi goes down, but it's rarely able to function as even that. The doom knight looks cool, I guess.

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Baron Saturday
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Re: Blackguard Summons

Post by Baron Saturday » Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:21 am

It's worth noting that ALL undead only get 2 attacks/round. The blackguard ones aren't unique in that regard.

And to be fair, giving a full BAB class like blackguard two gate-strength summons on separate cooldowns on top of their other goodies would be pretty broken.
Cortex wrote:dont listen to baron for good builds hes bad mkay

Straydog
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Re: Blackguard Summons

Post by Straydog » Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:16 pm

Baron Saturday wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:21 am
It's worth noting that ALL undead only get 2 attacks/round. The blackguard ones aren't unique in that regard.

And to be fair, giving a full BAB class like blackguard two gate-strength summons on separate cooldowns on top of their other goodies would be pretty broken.
I guess, it just seems sad from a design standpoint for it to just be a second permanent summon that is just categorically worse than the fiend. It would be cool to see create undead be turned into something like, "summons 3 weakling undead that last for X rounds and then disappear" or something, kind of an "oh shit button" for an encounter when you bit off more than you could chew, or to create a little chaos in PvP.

EDIT: plus it would fit the epic BG description a bit better.
"The epic blackguard is a twisted reflection of the epic paladin, the commander of legions of undead, the unholy lieutenant of evil gods, and a foul source of fear and mortal danger."
Commander of one, stupid undead does not have the same ring to it.

liver and bones
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Re: Blackguard Summons

Post by liver and bones » Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:36 pm

Blackguards here aren't replicas of regular NWN blackguards. There's more of an emphasis on connection to a great evil (i.e. the purpose of having these devils, demons, and yugoloths as summons, and access to Abyssal or Infernal automatically), and less so as the dark, "twisted reflection" of a paladin.

Straydog
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Re: Blackguard Summons

Post by Straydog » Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:40 am

liver and bones wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:36 pm
Blackguards here aren't replicas of regular NWN blackguards. There's more of an emphasis on connection to a great evil (i.e. the purpose of having these devils, demons, and yugoloths as summons, and access to Abyssal or Infernal automatically), and less so as the dark, "twisted reflection" of a paladin.
I do like that, but it makes Create Undead and Inflict Wounds seem a little antique. Create Undead is useless, and therefore Inflict Wounds is also useless. It would be neat to either see Create Undead take a different role, or just see it trimmed out and maybe replaced with something else that's related to the great evil associated with their alignment. If the concern is that a Full BaB class with a Balor Lord/Pit Fiend General is too strong with any other tools, it's a sign that these summons are limiting the design space of the class in a bad way rather than contributing something good.

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Baron Saturday
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Re: Blackguard Summons

Post by Baron Saturday » Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:10 am

I would argue that the undead aren't useless - they're simply not going to win fights for you the way the summoned fiends will. They make decent distractions, and if buffed should perform decently enough.

As for the inflict wounds abilities, these have been given a secondary weapon buff functionality, effectively adding a temp negative essence to the BG's weapon.
Cortex wrote:dont listen to baron for good builds hes bad mkay

liver and bones
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Re: Blackguard Summons

Post by liver and bones » Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:15 am

Straydog wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:40 am
liver and bones wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:36 pm
Blackguards here aren't replicas of regular NWN blackguards. There's more of an emphasis on connection to a great evil (i.e. the purpose of having these devils, demons, and yugoloths as summons, and access to Abyssal or Infernal automatically), and less so as the dark, "twisted reflection" of a paladin.
I do like that, but it makes Create Undead and Inflict Wounds seem a little antique. Create Undead is useless, and therefore Inflict Wounds is also useless. It would be neat to either see Create Undead take a different role, or just see it trimmed out and maybe replaced with something else that's related to the great evil associated with their alignment. If the concern is that a Full BaB class with a Balor Lord/Pit Fiend General is too strong with any other tools, it's a sign that these summons are limiting the design space of the class in a bad way rather than contributing something good.
A full BaB class with sneak attack, free use of poison (which the Arelith variety are quite strong), huge tanking potential, above average damage potential, excellent saves, and a summon. There's not design space that's being limited. It's a class that literally has everything a class wants. So, the devs starting moving the blackguards away from the "evil mirror of the paladin" archetype to contacting fiends or other great evils so they could further evil as an idea.

Create Undead is just unlucky to receive the short end of the stick. Yeah, it's not great, but that's hardly of any matter. Also, all the blackguard Inflict Wounds can be used on your blade like a spellsword can put on imbues. The damage is something like 1d8 and 1d12.

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CosmicOrderV
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Re: Blackguard Summons

Post by CosmicOrderV » Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:23 am

Let's not blow the poisons out of proportions. As a well done feedback thread has clearly demonstrated, or anyone who has tried to use them can attest to, they're not good. None of them are. The inflict wounds property also acts as an essence, for which there are... essences. So that's not a huge selling point.

That said, I think the class is WAY better than it was before, and like with all things, Arelith continues to improve. I'm sure Blackguard will be tweaked in the far flung future.
Aodh Lazuli wrote:
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I, too, struggle to know what is written in books without first reading them.

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Ork
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Re: Blackguard Summons

Post by Ork » Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:25 am

As a well done feedback thread has clearly demonstrated, or anyone who has tried to use them can attest to, they're not good. None of them are.
There are some VERY good ones. Few and far between a lot of bad ones.

TimeAdept
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Re: Blackguard Summons

Post by TimeAdept » Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:58 am

liver and bones wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:15 am
Straydog wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:40 am
liver and bones wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:36 pm
Blackguards here aren't replicas of regular NWN blackguards. There's more of an emphasis on connection to a great evil (i.e. the purpose of having these devils, demons, and yugoloths as summons, and access to Abyssal or Infernal automatically), and less so as the dark, "twisted reflection" of a paladin.
I do like that, but it makes Create Undead and Inflict Wounds seem a little antique. Create Undead is useless, and therefore Inflict Wounds is also useless. It would be neat to either see Create Undead take a different role, or just see it trimmed out and maybe replaced with something else that's related to the great evil associated with their alignment. If the concern is that a Full BaB class with a Balor Lord/Pit Fiend General is too strong with any other tools, it's a sign that these summons are limiting the design space of the class in a bad way rather than contributing something good.
A full BaB class with sneak attack, free use of poison (which the Arelith variety are quite strong), huge tanking potential, above average damage potential, excellent saves, and a summon. There's not design space that's being limited. It's a class that literally has everything a class wants. So, the devs starting moving the blackguards away from the "evil mirror of the paladin" archetype to contacting fiends or other great evils so they could further evil as an idea.

Create Undead is just unlucky to receive the short end of the stick. Yeah, it's not great, but that's hardly of any matter. Also, all the blackguard Inflict Wounds can be used on your blade like a spellsword can put on imbues. The damage is something like 1d8 and 1d12.
1d6 and 1d8.
There are some VERY good ones.
eyeblast abd cave terror are prolly the only good ones, but when they proc, you win, so it's good.

Straydog
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Re: Blackguard Summons

Post by Straydog » Thu Feb 07, 2019 7:45 am

liver and bones wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:15 am
A full BaB class with sneak attack, free use of poison (which the Arelith variety are quite strong), huge tanking potential, above average damage potential, excellent saves, and a summon. There's not design space that's being limited. It's a class that literally has everything a class wants. So, the devs starting moving the blackguards away from the "evil mirror of the paladin" archetype to contacting fiends or other great evils so they could further evil as an idea.

Create Undead is just unlucky to receive the short end of the stick. Yeah, it's not great, but that's hardly of any matter. Also, all the blackguard Inflict Wounds can be used on your blade like a spellsword can put on imbues. The damage is something like 1d8 and 1d12.
Having good tools does not mean that design space is not being limited. Having tools that are too good limits the design space further, by making the task of implementing variety more difficult due to the risk of making the class overpowered.

And that's awesome about the Inflict Wounds thing.

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Jagel
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Re: Blackguard Summons

Post by Jagel » Thu Feb 07, 2019 8:01 am

Maybe a suggestion could be made to allow Blackguards to choose between a strong planar connection or strong undead summons.

Once the suggestion box reopens, that is.

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CosmicOrderV
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Re: Blackguard Summons

Post by CosmicOrderV » Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:55 pm

Sounds like an excellent idea!
Aodh Lazuli wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:22 pm
I, too, struggle to know what is written in books without first reading them.

Hazard
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Re: Blackguard Summons

Post by Hazard » Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:21 am

Jagel wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 8:01 am
Maybe a suggestion could be made to allow Blackguards to choose between a strong planar connection or strong undead summons.

Once the suggestion box reopens, that is.
Sounds like a good idea to me!

CptJonas
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Re: Blackguard Summons

Post by CptJonas » Sun Mar 03, 2019 12:36 am

Hazard wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:21 am
Jagel wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 8:01 am
Maybe a suggestion could be made to allow Blackguards to choose between a strong planar connection or strong undead summons.

Once the suggestion box reopens, that is.
Sounds like a good idea to me!
Truly good Idea...

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