Two Handed Build

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BoltNRun
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Two Handed Build

Post by BoltNRun » Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:02 am

Hi again! I know I recently made a topic about Spellswords and while i am leaning heavily toward that I was curious about a build I could do on here.

I noticed that Gnolls are a playable race and on other servers I played on (a LONG time ago) they were something you didn't see honestly. I think Gnolls are cool as hell, well any beast character especially scaly kind, are the coolest.

i was wanting to know if a gnoll wielding a two handed axe could be made into a viable build? All the research I've done and tried to look up in past discussions shows that going two handed weapons will severely gimp you unless you do some sort of caster mix in your build or so? If I wanted to do a gnoll that just wielded a greataxe and was mainly warrior would it be possible? Perhaps going barbarian would be better or a mix of barbarian with fighter and weapon master?

Again, I apologize for a second build thread but I don't necessarily understand how to make some cool builds on my own just yet or what are some like necessary feats/skills so I don't want to hinder myself y'know?

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Re: Two Handed Build

Post by CosmicOrderV » Thu Jan 24, 2019 6:12 pm

Two handed weapons are very doable. Especially for barbarian.

You could do something as simple as 12 barbarian, 3 rogue (tumble dip, Use Magic Device dip, and sneak attack), 8 more barbarian (pickup Terrifying Rage during this time as an epic feat), then finish off with more rogue, for more tumble and sneak attack.

Pickup Improved Critical, Disarm, Improved Disarm, and Blind Fight somewhere along the way, and you're golden.

You'll be a slobbering ball of fury. Rage damage will be +13, plus and essenced masterly damask average (4+6+3), your strength times 1.5 (because two-handed; let's say 34 so 12 * 1.5 = 18)...

44 (crit 132!) base damage, average, plus if it's a sneak attack that's 3d6 (avg: 9) more damage on top of that.

Your health would be, during rage, something like ... 600, with a CON score of 20.

On the flip-side, your AC and Reflex save won't be great! But do you really need AC when your plan is to rush in and cleave their skull? Nah man, I don't think so.
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Re: Two Handed Build

Post by Dragonovith » Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:47 pm

In regards to the post above, it is not really worth taking more than 16 Barbarian levels. You could do something like '16 Barbarian - 10 Fighter - 4 Rogue/Bard' or '16 Barbarian - 10 Rogue (for the synergy between Terrifying Rage and Crippling Strikes) - 4 Fighter'. There is another Barbarian build in the Cookie-cutter guide that goes scimitar, but you could easily adapt it to two handed.

Note that you could also go the EDR route, which adds much survivability for a two handed build that lacks AC. This, however, isn't a much popular path anymore due to recent nerfs to how temporary Rage HP is calculated. Still on the matter of EDR, you could try '16 Barbarian - 10 Palemaster - 4 Bard' for the synergy between damage reduction and immunity to critical hits. It sounds interesting on paper, but I have never tried it or heard of anyone playing this build.

You also mentioned a mix of barbarian, weaponmaster, and fighter. Well, '17 Barbarian - 7 Weaponmaster - 6 Fighter' used to be a strong build in the times of the Kensai path. I still play one, they're lots of fun even though it suffers from the lack of AC, but that's what you get from going two handed. A glass cannon, basically. I know someone playing a variant of that build but with either Rogue or Bard levels, for UMD and Tumble. They seem to be having fun as well.

If you decide to go the Barb WM way, know that you'll be very feat starved. Barbarians already don't have a lot of feats to choose from, and Weaponmaster requires several feats to be unlocked. So have that in mind.


Going Barbarian on your two handed Gnoll is an interesting approach, given that the race gets 5% physical dmg immunity for free, which stacks with the Barbarian rage bonuses. But there are other options. For example, two handed weapons are popular with a few Shadowdancer builds; your nearly unkillable Shadow guards you as you go full hack and slash. It works quite well for PvE, but you'll feel the lack of AC during PvP, where the Shadow can't guard you.

You could also go a two handed CoT. CoTs get a very high AB with Divine Wrath. Combine that with the +2 AB bonus from two handed weapons, and you'll be disarming everyone with ease.


Overall, when going two handed, you should have in mind that you'll likely die a lot. You are trading a considerable amount of AC for some damage, which may not be the fairest of trades on the long run. Having a friend to -guard your Gnoll would appease most of the negatives of a two handed weapon, but you can't always count on that.

Personally, I'd take the barbarian path. Barbarians have access to the Terrifying Rage feat, which used to be far better in the past during the age of aura wiggling, but it still trivializes some of the in-game content by temporarily stunning enemies (if they're not immune to mind spells) around you, if they fail a DC save. It's a great PvE option, but do bear in mind the stun doesn't last that long.


And about weapons, if you aren't dead set on Greataxe, know that the Greatsword is a solid option given its critical range; it deals less damage than a Greataxe, but the crit range should make up for it. Greataxes and Tridents perform the same in Arelith, but in the case of Tridents, you can forge one called Cyclone, a +4 Keen weapon with a Slow on hit DC. Scythes still remain a viable option with that x4 crit multiplier.

This is the opinion of someone new to building who has taken up an interest on it, be mindful of that. In case I might have said an absurd, I suggest waiting for the opinion of a veteran.

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Re: Two Handed Build

Post by BoltNRun » Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:56 pm

Thank you both for your replies and insightful info! I understand that going two handed would be giving up some AC and survivability and I'm okay with that. I think I will drop the weaponmaster though as being feat starved doesn't sound good. The Shadowdancer does sound kind of cool, and I have an interesting way to emulate that in RP actually. if my tanky shadow can guard me then that would actually be pretty fun. What would a build like that look like? Im not that saavy on how to build so a guide is always what I look for when looking for builds lol.

The cookie cutter barbarian is a human though? What would be needed to adapt that to a gnoll?

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Re: Two Handed Build

Post by CosmicOrderV » Fri Jan 25, 2019 2:00 am

I respectfully disagree that it's not worth it to go barbarian above 16. I've played two barbarian's so far.

The reason you try to get at least 20 levels, is because while wearing medium armor, if you can cap your DEX bonus, you actually achieve a higher AC in medium armor, than you would heavy armor. This is why the cookie cutter build has 21 barbarian levels, and suggests Masterly Elven Chain. It helps cover for some of the barbarian's shortcomings. Likewise, you can always go more into barbarian, because it scales rage damage, DR (bonus at lvl 23), and a bonus feat (at lvl 24; which you can use for Armor Skin, to further gain 2 AC). Comparatively speaking, the fighter levels net you about 2 damage more, but less AC, if you were to only go 16 barbarian. Additionally, by that time, you've gained 2 DR.

Looking back at my prior post, as well, I forgot to add the CON bonus to damage barbarians get, along with a temporary essence to the damage calculation. Needless to say, going with lots of barbarian levels is definitely not a poor choice, though I suppose it depends what you want out of your build.
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Re: Two Handed Build

Post by Dr. B » Fri Jan 25, 2019 2:58 am

Dragonovith wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:47 pm
In regards to the post above, it is not really worth taking more than 16 Barbarian levels.
Why are you saying this?

Also, if you want to play a two-handed Barbarian, I'd recommend 23/4/3 Barbarian/Fighter/Rogue with Epic Damage Reduction III. Choose Thundering Rage.

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BoltNRun
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Re: Two Handed Build

Post by BoltNRun » Fri Jan 25, 2019 6:01 am

Is there a build I could follow? I'm afraid I'll mess up somehow and screw up my build.

All I really want is a feasible barbarian build, or fighter if that's better for a two handed gnoll? Going barbarian sounds really fun so I think that'll be what I go for.

EDIT: I'd also like to know more about the Barbarian shadow dancer build? That actually sounds really cool and I have an idea of how it can be done. Is it a viable build?

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Re: Two Handed Build

Post by Lasos » Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:10 am

I just directly stole the build outlined in: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=9473#p77458 by Cortex. This is a two-handed 21/6/3 Barb/Fighter/Rogue build that gets EDR.

Recommended abilities (for humans):
STR 17
DEX 8
CON 16
WIS 8
INT 14
CHA 8
(You get one spare ability point you can toy with)
Gifts: STR and CON.
Leveling: You need 21 CON before 21, so with 18 starting CON, you add 3 points into CON pre-epics, and 1 post epic, all other ability points go into STR, making it 22 STR and CON.
Recommended Weapon: Most martial 2h weapons will do just fine.

My own little bit, adjusting for Gnoll. See how going Half-orc as a base actually frees up one attribute point from above? I've put that point, along with the spare ability point from above, into Dex to give you 10 Dex. Gnolls as a race fits very well with the barbarian class imo.
STR 17 (19 with +2 gift of strength)
DEX 10
CON 16 (18 after Gnoll race adjustment)
WIS 8
INT 14
CHA 6

1 Barb - Weapon Focus (As a human, you get an extra feat here. Not sure why this is not in the original build. Means you can either get Improved Knockdown or something else.)
2 Barb
3 Barb - Toughness (Gnolls get this for free at start, however, they also loose that human extra feat, so this essentially cancels out)
4 Barb
5 Barb
6 Barb - Disarm
7 Barb
8 Barb
9 Barb - Improved Disarm
10 Barb
11 Barb
12 Barb - Improved Critical/Blind Fight/Knockdown
13 Barb -
14 Barb
15 Barb - Improved Critical/Blind Fight/Knockdown
16 Barb
17 Barb
18 Barb - Improved Critical/Blind Fight/Knockdown
19 Barb
20 Barb
21 Fighter - EDR1, EDR2
22 Fighter - EDR3
23 Fighter
24 Fighter - Epic Weapon Focus, Weapon Spec
25 Rogue
26 Rogue
27 Rogue - Epic Discipline OR Epic Prowess
28 Fighter
29 Fighter - Epic Weapon Spec
30 Barbarian - Terrifying Rage (Edit: Cannot get Thundering Rage, since you will not be getting the 25+ base strength which is a requirement )

I would recommend Epic Skill Focus: Discipline over Epic Prowess at level 27.

I am afraid I do not know about the Barb/Shadowdancer, someone else needs to help with that. However, at first glance Barb-SD merge does not strike me as being particularly viable. Both Barbarian and Showdancers are classes which would generally require a heavy investment in levels. If you'd also want to dip into a third class, then I'm afraid you'd end up with two very sub-optimal parts making the whole build quite weak. Barbarians would generally want to invest at least 16 levels to get the perks assocaited with that level. If you go something like 16/4/10 Barb/Fighter/SD, then I do not believe you would be able to get enough levels in SD to make your shadow worth much (wont be strong enough to tank for you. However, I never build a SD, so I don't actually know if this is true, someone else needs to pitch in here). Going with fighter here also means you wont get any rogue levels and thus skip out on UMD, which is just really, really good. Another thing to note is meeting the SD class requirements of Dodge and Mobility (need at least 13 dex) would probably hurt your build in general, since as a barbarian you're already trying to push your CON to at least 18. Thus your strength is going to be quite impaired. Also just taking the two feats (which has very little value in and of itself), would hurt quite a bit on such a feat-starved build, stemming from the low number of fighter levels.
Last edited by Lasos on Fri Jan 25, 2019 10:53 am, edited 6 times in total.

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BoltNRun
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Re: Two Handed Build

Post by BoltNRun » Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:18 am

Thank you so much Lasos! After doing some research and reading what you said i think you're right. I'll just stick with doing the build you've outlined. It seems like a good one and I appreciate the time you put into it and with all the explanations I feel so much better about this.

Also.. just curious about something in game. I know that I will have a different player model then a typical humanoid so I was wondering if I can still use gear? i know it won't show up aesthetically, and I'm pretty sure that I get to use gear, but just to be safe I thought I'd ask lol

Oh, also, why do you suggest ESF: discipline over prowess? ESF: Discipline would help me better resist moves like disarm and KD right?

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Re: Two Handed Build

Post by Jagel » Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:27 am

Discipline should be a top priority on melee builds.

You can choose between two gnoll models on creation and you’re right, gear won’t show except weapons and shields. You can still ude all gear slots

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Re: Two Handed Build

Post by Lasos » Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:29 am

Sure thing man. I think I may have spotted some mistakes in my post above though, just gonna do some testing and perhaps adjust it a bit. Edit: Yep, was missing an extra starting feat at level 1 for being human. I've added that now.


Getting knocked down is a death-sentence for most melee fighters. Especially two-handed ones, since you do not have the AC from the shield to mitigate the dmg, so +10 Discipline is very much worth it over +1 AB.

Playing a monster race does not put any restrictions on what type of gear you can use. I am not sure how it qould look aesthetically for a gnoll though.

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BoltNRun
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Re: Two Handed Build

Post by BoltNRun » Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:46 am

Awesome!! So that build is good now? I get two feats at first level for barbarian, correct?

Also that does sound better. I do remember knockdown being the turning point for melee fights

Also what will my AC and AB be like you think? And with damage reduction I'll have some sort of survivability, right?

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Re: Two Handed Build

Post by Lasos » Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:48 am

Argh, spotted yet another mistake, which you may want to take into account! Thundering Rage requires 25+ base strength, which this build does not reach. So you would want to go Terrifying rage instead. Never played a barb to the point where I've gotten those feats, so I do not know which one is best, but I strongly believe that Terrifying rage is still very good, so I can only imagine the build being very viable still.

No, you would only get one starting feat. But you can just replace toughness with something else from the list.

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Re: Two Handed Build

Post by BoltNRun » Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:56 am

If my starting STR is 17, then I choose gift which makes it 19, then add in gnoll subrace bonus of another +2 I'd be at 21. I still couldn't reach 25?

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Re: Two Handed Build

Post by Lasos » Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:02 am

I am just going to clean up a little, since I've made so many mistakes by now. Adjusted for Gnoll, it would look something like this:

Starting attributes:
STR 17 (19 with +2 gift of strength)
DEX 10
CON 16 (18 after Gnoll race adjustment)
WIS 8
INT 14
CHA 6

Leveling: You need 21 CON before 21, so with 18 starting CON, you add 3 points into CON pre-epics, and 1 post epic, all other ability points go into STR, making it 22 STR and CON.

Can choose a minor gift as well. I really, really like have Gift of Craftmanship on all of my chars. It does incur +1 ECL, however that's up to you if you want to level a bit faster.

1 Barb - Weapon Focus
2 Barb
3 Barb - Knockdown
4 Barb
5 Barb
6 Barb - Disarm
7 Barb
8 Barb
9 Barb - Improved Critical
10 Barb
11 Barb
12 Barb - Improved Knockdown
13 Barb
14 Barb
15 Barb - Improved Disarm
16 Barb
17 Barb
18 Barb - Blind Fight
19 Barb
20 Barb
21 Fighter - EDR1, EDR2
22 Fighter - EDR3
23 Fighter
24 Fighter - Epic Weapon Focus, Weapon Spec
25 Rogue
26 Rogue
27 Rogue - Epic Discipline OR Epic Prowess
28 Fighter
29 Fighter - Epic Weapon Spec
30 Barbarian - Terrifying Rage (Cannot get Thundering Rage, since you will not be getting the 25+ base strength which is a requirement )
Last edited by Lasos on Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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BoltNRun
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Re: Two Handed Build

Post by BoltNRun » Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:09 am

I'll probably get that gift lol.

Question though: After looking at the cookie cutter build and this one. Why would I not get 25 STR if both start off at the same strength and have relatively same level progression?

Also I thought the racial stat bonus was +2 to my strength and conditioning as a gnoll
Last edited by BoltNRun on Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

Lasos
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Re: Two Handed Build

Post by Lasos » Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:09 am

BoltNRun wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:56 am
If my starting STR is 17, then I choose gift which makes it 19, then add in gnoll subrace bonus of another +2 I'd be at 21. I still couldn't reach 25?
Gnoll subrace does not add another +2 Strength.

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Re: Two Handed Build

Post by Lasos » Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:11 am

BoltNRun wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:09 am
I'll probably get that gift lol.

Question though: After looking at the cookie cutter build and this one. Why would I not get 25 STR if both start off at the same strength and have relatively same level progression?

Also I thought the racial stat bonus was +2 to my strength and conditioning as a gnoll
The Cookie-cutter build does not get Epic Damage Reduction. EDR requires 21+ base CON, and is thus fairly incompatible with Thundering Rage, I'm afraid.

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BoltNRun
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Re: Two Handed Build

Post by BoltNRun » Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:16 am

Aww well that's okay! Thank you so much for your help again. The wiki might need to be updated then as it says the gnoll gets a +2 str+2 con, -2 int. -2 cha

I apologize for my obliviousness and odd questions lol. I'm trying to learn as we go along too lol

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Re: Two Handed Build

Post by Lasos » Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:22 am

BoltNRun wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:16 am
Aww well that's okay! Thank you so much for your help again. The wiki might need to be updated then as it says the gnoll gets a +2 str+2 con, -2 int. -2 cha
It actually displays it correctly, it is just a little difficult to read. The base race is Half-orc, which gets the +2 Str, -2 Int and -2 Cha, meaning that attribute investment on character creation is adjusted so that it is "cheaper" to invest in strength and more expensive to invest in intelligence and charisma. The gnoll subrace then adds another +2 Con (you can see it in brackets below). So the way to see what adjustments will take place when you choose the subrace is just to look at the changes in brackets below.

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BoltNRun
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Re: Two Handed Build

Post by BoltNRun » Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:25 am

Ahhhh! Okay that actually does clear it up for me! What AC and AB will I be looking at and having all this health and DR will make me a little survivable right?

Lasos
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Re: Two Handed Build

Post by Lasos » Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:45 am

Glad it did! AB will look something like this:

Attack Bonus
- BAB: 25
- Strength: 12 (22 base +12 from gear and spells = 34, netting you a modifier of 12)
- Focus: 1
- Epic Focus: 2
- Enchantment: 3 (from Masterly Damask weaponry, if you're going Trident (which is a martial weapon), you could get the Cyclone weapon and get +4 here)
- Rage: 2
- Two-hander: 2

Total AB: 47 (48 with Cyclone trident)

Unbuffed AC would be something like:
- Natural 10
- Dex Modifier: 2
- Masterly Elven Chain mail (5 base AC, +4 enchantment): 9
- Dodge from boots: 1
- Tumble: 6
- Level 20 barb: 4
- Adamantine Helmet: 3

Total unbuffed AC: 35

This can then be buffed using following spells and potions (and I am most likely forgetting something here):
- Shadow Shield: 5
- Mage armor: 1
- Haste: 4

Total buffed AC: 45

AC is quite low. AB is suffering a bit from low strength, but 47 is decent I suppose. DR will definitively increase survivability, but I've not played a EDR barb to know just exactly how good it is. Massive amounts of HP is going to make you able to survive through a number of hits though.

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BoltNRun
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Re: Two Handed Build

Post by BoltNRun » Fri Jan 25, 2019 5:15 pm

I do have another question. Why is it that in the cookie cutter and this build which have the same level spread, but the levels are taken at different times? Like in this one we go 20 Barb before choosing fighter, but in cookie cutter we go 19 Barb then 1 fighter?

Also, no matter the build I will still get 7 ability point level ups right?

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Re: Two Handed Build

Post by Beard Master Flex » Sat Jan 26, 2019 4:48 pm

Ive been playing an EDRIII 24/3/3 Barbarian 2h with close to nine hundred health in a Rage. Its pretty fun and can easily contribute at all content. When stuff starts to go side ways in the highest level dungeon worst case scenario you can run Imp Expertise, throw on a shield and then guard the softies with AC in the mid 60's and youre tough to be killed. You can face tank massive damage spells more then any other party member, you can tank several IGMS and if you're eventually killed chances are the party wasn't going to make it anyway. Find a cleric who can cast Greater Restoration on you and you get some serious mileage out of that HP pool.

One day I hope to meet a Healer so I can achieve over 1000 HP and... give someone a high five or something!

It does okay damage, but you're not going to be showing up any weapon masters. Saves are pretty okay too if you take bard for your dump.

Havent done too much pvp, but if you're someone who doesn't like to walk around warded you pack a pretty strong punch right out of the gate.

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Re: Two Handed Build

Post by BoltNRun » Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:07 pm

Sorry to revive this thread after about a month but as I was looking through the wiki trying to read up on some things, I came across something that made me curious.

The double weapons (Two Bladed Sword, Double-Axe, and Dire Mace) all have a special variant of them. The Orcish Blood (Enter weapon choice). It says that it is restricted to anything orcish only. Since a gnoll uses the half-orc template, does this mean that they can use this? I wasn't sure if they could. I mean technically they could since their base template is half-orc right?

Also, sorry for all the random posts and threads. I'm just a curious guy and my mind switches between so many things when it comes to builds, concepts and ideas lol. I settle on one, but I'm always thinking!

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