Automatic Still Spell

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NegInfinity
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Automatic Still Spell

Post by NegInfinity » Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:30 am

This part of description is confusing:
Automatic Still Spell: Also grants 5% Arcane Spell Failure reduction. Upgrades to 10% with II.
Does it still work as in original game - meaning allows corresponding spells to be cast sielntly without expending metamagic?

Also.... can metamagic be applied to autostilled spells?

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Baron Saturday
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Re: Automatic Still Spell

Post by Baron Saturday » Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:03 am

Still works as per vanilla, just has an additional effect. That's why it says, "Also."

And as I understand it, as long as the level of the metamagic'd spell is covered by the autometamagic feat, yes, you can effectively apply two metamagics. In other works, if you had autostill 1 and cast an empowered Magic Missile (which takes up a level 3 slot), the spell would be both stilled and empowered. If, however, you had autostill 1 and cast a maximized Magic Missile (level 4 slot), the spell would ONLY be maximized.
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NegInfinity
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Re: Automatic Still Spell

Post by NegInfinity » Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:16 am

Baron Saturday wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:03 am
Still works as per vanilla, just has an additional effect. That's why it says, "Also."

And as I understand it, as long as the level of the metamagic'd spell is covered by the autometamagic feat, yes, you can effectively apply two metamagics. In other works, if you had autostill 1 and cast an empowered Magic Missile (which takes up a level 3 slot), the spell would be both stilled and empowered. If, however, you had autostill 1 and cast a maximized Magic Missile (level 4 slot), the spell would ONLY be maximized.
Alright, thanks.

monkeywithstick
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Re: Automatic Still Spell

Post by monkeywithstick » Fri Sep 14, 2018 9:00 am

Baron Saturday wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:03 am
And as I understand it, as long as the level of the metamagic'd spell is covered by the autometamagic feat, yes, you can effectively apply two metamagics. In other works, if you had autostill 1 and cast an empowered Magic Missile (which takes up a level 3 slot), the spell would be both stilled and empowered. If, however, you had autostill 1 and cast a maximized Magic Missile (level 4 slot), the spell would ONLY be maximized.
Incorrect, the auto feats go off Base spell level not slot level. So with auto-still I all casts of magic missile, irrespective of additional metamagic are stilled
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StrykerMontgomery
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Re: Automatic Still Spell

Post by StrykerMontgomery » Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:21 am

Well that changes a lot of build potentials.
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Baron Saturday
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Re: Automatic Still Spell

Post by Baron Saturday » Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:27 pm

That is very good to know, thank you for the correction!
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Hunter548
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Re: Automatic Still Spell

Post by Hunter548 » Sat Sep 15, 2018 1:14 am

monkeywithstick wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 9:00 am
Baron Saturday wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:03 am
And as I understand it, as long as the level of the metamagic'd spell is covered by the autometamagic feat, yes, you can effectively apply two metamagics. In other works, if you had autostill 1 and cast an empowered Magic Missile (which takes up a level 3 slot), the spell would be both stilled and empowered. If, however, you had autostill 1 and cast a maximized Magic Missile (level 4 slot), the spell would ONLY be maximized.
Incorrect, the auto feats go off Base spell level not slot level. So with auto-still I all casts of magic missile, irrespective of additional metamagic are stilled
This is wrong. You need the automatic metamagic feat for whatever their modified level is.
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monkeywithstick
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Re: Automatic Still Spell

Post by monkeywithstick » Sat Sep 15, 2018 6:57 am

That has not been my experience. Extended true sight and legend lore were auto metamagiced with the second feat only.
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Aelryn Bloodmoon
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Re: Automatic Still Spell

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Sat Sep 15, 2018 7:13 am

I'll chime in here on Cev's next level-up to confirm, but past experience leads me to believe Monkey is correct. If a spell's base level is covered by an auto-metamagic feat, it should be covered no matter what second metamagic feat is manually added, since the game never counts metamagic towards a spell's actual level, only its spell slot level.

For example, a maximized fireball (sixth level spell slot, 3rd level spell) is still blocked completely by a globe of invulnerability (because a maximized fireball is still a 3rd level spell).
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Hunter548
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Re: Automatic Still Spell

Post by Hunter548 » Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:52 pm

I don't know why it's the case, but I've just tested it with a level 29 sorcerer with autoquicken 2. Regular Ice Storm gets two in a round, maximized Ice Storm gets one.

So you'll need all three auto metamagic feats.
Last edited by Hunter548 on Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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monkeywithstick
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Re: Automatic Still Spell

Post by monkeywithstick » Sat Sep 15, 2018 7:55 pm

That definitely isn't how auto silent works.
Do the three auto feats behave differently?
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Re: Automatic Still Spell

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Tue Sep 18, 2018 1:27 am

Hunter548 wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:52 pm
I don't know why it's the case, but I've just tested it with a level 29 sorcerer with autoquicken 2. Regular Ice Storm gets two in a round, empowered Ice Storm gets one.

So you'll need all three auto metamagic feats.
This is exceptionally strange- an empowered ice storm should be cast out of a sixth-level spell slot, which should be covered by auto-quicken II regardless.

It seems possible that auto-quicken refuses to work with a second application of manual metamagic, period. Can you use the same sorcerer to test empower on magic missiles and see if you get two/round or one?

(The ironic part about this entire discussion is that quicken is actually supposed to be impossible for sorcerers of any variety to use, based on their metamagic being spontaneous and taking a full-round action as a result, as a side-note for you table-top lore junkies like me).
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TimeAdept
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Re: Automatic Still Spell

Post by TimeAdept » Tue Sep 18, 2018 5:31 am

the sorceror metamagic rule is definitely top 3 dumb tabletop rules

Here's another really dumb tabletop rule for you
Recent Casting Limit/Rest Interruptions

If a wizard has cast spells recently, the drain on her resources reduces her capacity to prepare new spells. When she prepares spells for the coming day, all the spells she has cast within the last 8 hours count against her daily limit.
Recent Casting Limit

As with wizards, any spells cast within the last 8 hours count against the sorcerer’s or bard’s daily limit.
So if you got into a fight at dinnertime or got woken up during your night watch and have to fight, when you finish resting and get up in the morning, even though you got 8 hours of rest, all those spells still count as cast! They're gone!

I have never seen this rule enforced across 17 yeras of PnP. Most people don't even know it exists.

Sorry for the side track but MAN there are some dumb PnP rules that we should totally ignore and that sorceror thing is one of 'em.

StrykerMontgomery
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Re: Automatic Still Spell

Post by StrykerMontgomery » Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:07 pm

In pathfinder sorceror have bloodlines. Tbe default being arcana which does a few things to catch up to wizards including being able to ignore the sorceror metamagic rule. Also in table top, you still usually have one standard action per round. So empowering a spell as a sorceror would just mean you can't move the same turn you cast it.

It is not a dumb rule at all because they dont have to commit slots ahead of time. In table top as a wizard, you WILL not be learning every spell in the game. Its why many gladly give up two schools to be a specialist. Because money is a limited resource that could be spent on equipment instead of your spellbook.

NWN, especially as a PW, is not table top DnD.
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Hunter548
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Re: Automatic Still Spell

Post by Hunter548 » Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:25 pm

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 1:27 am
Hunter548 wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:52 pm
I don't know why it's the case, but I've just tested it with a level 29 sorcerer with autoquicken 2. Regular Ice Storm gets two in a round, empowered Ice Storm gets one.

So you'll need all three auto metamagic feats.
This is exceptionally strange- an empowered ice storm should be cast out of a sixth-level spell slot, which should be covered by auto-quicken II regardless.

It seems possible that auto-quicken refuses to work with a second application of manual metamagic, period. Can you use the same sorcerer to test empower on magic missiles and see if you get two/round or one?

(The ironic part about this entire discussion is that quicken is actually supposed to be impossible for sorcerers of any variety to use, based on their metamagic being spontaneous and taking a full-round action as a result, as a side-note for you table-top lore junkies like me).
I meant maximize, actually. Small brain fart, I'll correct the original post.

Time Adept is right that the sorcerer spontaneous metamagic rule is dumb and should be ignored where possible.
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Invader_Nym wrote: I don't understand how I can lose functionality buying an update that's supposed to be optimized for modern hardware.
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StrykerMontgomery
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Re: Automatic Still Spell

Post by StrykerMontgomery » Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:22 pm

Hunter548 wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:52 pm

Time Adept is right that the sorcerer spontaneous metamagic rule is dumb and should be ignored where possible.
Agree to disagree?
I would be a bit off topic chasing this table topic debate, and good chance neither would until the thread end up being much longer than the original discussion, I am glad to discuss it elsewhere though.
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Re: Automatic Still Spell

Post by TimeAdept » Wed Sep 19, 2018 3:39 am

StrykerMontgomery wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:07 pm
In pathfinder sorceror have bloodlines. Tbe default being arcana which does a few things to catch up to wizards including being able to ignore the sorceror metamagic rule. Also in table top, you still usually have one standard action per round. So empowering a spell as a sorceror would just mean you can't move the same turn you cast it.

It is not a dumb rule at all because they dont have to commit slots ahead of time. In table top as a wizard, you WILL not be learning every spell in the game. Its why many gladly give up two schools to be a specialist. Because money is a limited resource that could be spent on equipment instead of your spellbook.

NWN, especially as a PW, is not table top DnD.
No, you give up 2 schools to specialize in PF and 3.5 because it's a free spell slot and it's really easy to just spend 2 spell slots on a forbidden school in Pathfinder (or even not use the school in 3.5) when your spell options look like this, instead of NWN where it stops you from using the school on all sources including items, and your available spellbook is less than a 10th of what's available to you in PnP.

StrykerMontgomery
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Re: Automatic Still Spell

Post by StrykerMontgomery » Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:00 am

I am aware of said table top details; again, probably not place and time to get into finer off topic details and be happy too discuss in a "is sorceor table top metamagic rule stupid" thread.
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