Pros/Cons Sorcerer versus Wizard?

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StrykerMontgomery
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Re: Pros/Cons Sorcerer versus Wizard?

Post by StrykerMontgomery » Tue May 15, 2018 9:36 pm

Fluffys wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 8:51 pm
Yes, perish the thought of making a character that isn’t built specifically for pwning other players in PvP.
You might *lose* with one of those!

Of all the casters I’ve played, I think that those that had the greatest impact on the world and that, in the end, were the more enjoyable, had glaring flaws (in a power-build pov).
Still, I usually did (and do) fine in PvP.
Most people suck at it, anyway. And instead of actually practicing it, they make-up/request powerbuilds thinking that will spell(ahem) victory.

But I’m getting totally sidetracked.

Returning to Specialist wizards: my very first wizard on this server, years and years ago, was a Specialist Abjurer. She was a riot to play, and in some ways I still miss her. Sure, she didn’t had summons, but she always had friends, and others knew for a fact she was specializing in Abjuring, wards, defensive spells, spells to breach or disable other mages, and so on. That alone opened many a door for RP.
Also, she had to find ways to be able to do the things other generic mages were doing - another door.

Edit: my most recent wizard (was some time ago as well) spent her days writing up essays explaining away her hatred for enchanters and enchantment in general. Her forbidden school drove at least half of her research..........

I, for one, am very happy to not have made the usual generalist 26wiz/4bard, or some such variant.
But this IS a builds subforum, so I’ll just golf clap myself away. :ugeek:
Well besides the RP fun of a specialist (honestly because of NWN mechanics you are choosing what you are prohibiting, not specializing)


I am just trying to point out to people that the sorceor vs wizard dichotomy gets challenged when you throw specialist wizards in the mix.

Like you dont have to be a sorceror to be a IGMS tower. A specialist wizard is a perfect alternative to sorceror if you are picking sorceror purely for spells per day and not the benefits of spontaneous casting.
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Re: Pros/Cons Sorcerer versus Wizard?

Post by TimeAdept » Tue May 15, 2018 9:55 pm

Opustus wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 1:54 pm
About counterspelling: On my former server Amia, Sorcerer was considered the better pick because it could perform about the same as Wizard in most regards, but in the rare cases of large-scale PvP and mage v. mage action, the Sorcerer had the edge on the Wizard due to having more dispelling. In particular, Sorcerer30 with Evocation or Necromancy focus and AutoQuicken III was contended the most potent caster build available in skill-based PvP matchups. Even though PvP wasn't that common, the Sorcerer30 was crowned champion because it could still solo PvE sufficiently without giving up its dispelling edge. The nastiest of Sorcies gave up Mass Haste for other spells, which I consider a very naughty thing to do. I haven't had much practice with spellcasters in PvP so I don't honestly know a squat, but this sayeth the legend.
27 sorc 1 ranger 2 rogue

30 sorc was never a thing besides people wanting 'pure' builds.

spell slot gear was also WAY easier to get so it was pretty common to see wizards with 7-8-9 spell slots for each spell level and sorcs with 10-11-12.

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Re: Pros/Cons Sorcerer versus Wizard?

Post by StrykerMontgomery » Tue May 15, 2018 10:03 pm

That would make a specialist wizard terrible lol (the getting easy spell slots part)

Im.surprised no one goes pure caster purely for the caster level. Like what are these folks going to do against that weirdo pure monk who took all their epic feats to increase spell resistance?
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Re: Pros/Cons Sorcerer versus Wizard?

Post by TimeAdept » Tue May 15, 2018 10:09 pm

Acid Sheathe.

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Re: Pros/Cons Sorcerer versus Wizard?

Post by Tourmaline » Tue May 15, 2018 10:15 pm

I think a specialist is an OK choice on other servers where you can't rest freely and every slot is precious (some are really restrictive) but with the Arelith house rules it's just not a great way to go. You get infinite GSF spells, you can add 7 or 8 spell slots up to level 3 to your gear, you can make a hundred wands and get the XP back quickly, you can be a wild mage and surge your spell slots back.. there are just better ways than blocking a whole spell school if more spells is all you care about.

Plus with the cost of spell components, you can't even really use level 7-9 spells liberally. Having 2 more Weirds to cast for free would be great, but when they cost you 3000 gold or that much more gathering and crafting time each I find myself not bothering to cast uneconomical spells at all. A sorcerer will have more maximized IGMS to fire, a wizard may lean into their summons more, but either way neither is going to be able to endlessly fire off mords and horrid wiltings and I find even on a generalist wizard there are plenty of unused spells every time I rest.

Of course specialist wizard makes for a great RP challenge, but that's not really something to impose on anyone else.

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Re: Pros/Cons Sorcerer versus Wizard?

Post by TimeAdept » Tue May 15, 2018 10:24 pm

Tourmaline wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 10:15 pm
I think a specialist is an OK choice on other servers where you can't rest freely and every slot is precious (some are really restrictive) but with the Arelith house rules it's just not a great way to go. You get infinite GSF spells, you can add 7 or 8 spell slots up to level 3 to your gear, you can make a hundred wands and get the XP back quickly, you can be a wild mage and surge your spell slots back.. there are just better ways than blocking a whole spell school if more spells is all you care about.

Plus with the cost of spell components, you can't even really use level 7-9 spells liberally. Having 2 more Weirds to cast for free would be great, but when they cost you 3000 gold or that much more gathering and crafting time each I find myself not bothering to cast uneconomical spells at all. A sorcerer will have more maximized IGMS to fire, a wizard may lean into their summons more, but either way neither is going to be able to endlessly fire off mords and horrid wiltings and I find even on a generalist wizard there are plenty of unused spells every time I rest.

Of course specialist wizard makes for a great RP challenge, but that's not really something to impose on anyone else.
One spell component becomes 5 charges in a pouch. At current market price of about 800 GP, one weird costs you 3/5ths of a component or about 480 GP. IF you can make your own, the price becomes neglibile as glass and greenstone/malachite are pennies. It's very easy to have 500+ charges of components available at any given time.

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Re: Pros/Cons Sorcerer versus Wizard?

Post by Fluffys » Tue May 15, 2018 10:52 pm

Oh, I wasn't replying to you StrykerMontgomery. :)

Was just too lazy to post the quote, since it seemed pretty obvious what I was talking about... to me... at the time. ;)

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Re: Pros/Cons Sorcerer versus Wizard?

Post by Cortex » Tue May 15, 2018 11:07 pm

Not taking specialist matters more in PvE than PvP, ironically.

Most of the specializations prohibit Conjuration which is your go-to for PvE, and if you spec Conj you're missing out on Haste and zoo spells. The only 'passable' specialization are Illusion because most enchantment spells suck, except Protection From Spells and Mass Haste (upon which people will be annoyed on learning they got a mage in their party without mass haste), and Necromancy (no premonition, and lack of detection isn't tragic in PvE).

End of the day, it's not worth it because if you're short on spells you can just have a sip of beer and nap for a full book again. It'd only matter in super rare occasions where you're casting your full spell book or for some reason you can't rest in a long long time (there are some dungeons that prohibit rest but they never push you hard enough to the point you need to rest so quickly).
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Re: Pros/Cons Sorcerer versus Wizard?

Post by StrykerMontgomery » Tue May 15, 2018 11:26 pm

Cortex wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 11:07 pm
Not taking specialist matters more in PvE than PvP, ironically.

Most of the specializations prohibit Conjuration which is your go-to for PvE, and if you spec Conj you're missing out on Haste and zoo spells. The only 'passable' specialization are Illusion because most enchantment spells suck, except Protection From Spells and Mass Haste (upon which people will be annoyed on learning they got a mage in their party without mass haste), and Necromancy (no premonition, and lack of detection isn't tragic in PvE).

End of the day, it's not worth it because if you're short on spells you can just have a sip of beer and nap for a full book again. It'd only matter in super rare occasions where you're casting your full spell book or for some reason you can't rest in a long long time (there are some dungeons that prohibit rest but they never push you hard enough to the point you need to rest so quickly).
what I think people keep forgetting about NWN specialization is you dont choose what you specialize in, you choose what you prohibit. That extra free spell slot can be used whatever you want it to be. (in PnP DnD you normally choose what schools you prohibit on top of what you specialize in). So the whole "most prohibit conjuration" is kind of irrelevant. I can whatever specialist prohibits necromancy and then roleplay/build as any specialist that is not a necromancer. (if prohibiting illusion, divinination or necromancy was not an option in my build/concept and I wasn't a shadow mage, I probably wouldnt bother with being a specialist).

I do find it hillarious that you can't by default prohibit evocation and can prohibit divination in NWN though lol.

Im not saying being a specialist wizard is worth it, I'm arguing that unless you want to take advantage of the spontaneous flexibility of a sorceror, being a sorceror for extra spell slots isn't worth it.
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Re: Pros/Cons Sorcerer versus Wizard?

Post by Cortex » Tue May 15, 2018 11:33 pm

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Spell_school

Not every spell school has a prohibition. Most of them are just conjuration.
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Re: Pros/Cons Sorcerer versus Wizard?

Post by StrykerMontgomery » Wed May 16, 2018 12:26 am

Cortex wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 11:33 pm
http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Spell_school

Not every spell school has a prohibition. Most of them are just conjuration.
Yes I am aware, but what I am saying is choosing your school in NWN only matters in the negative since. The game doesn't care fi your extra spell slot is your specialized school or not.
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Re: Pros/Cons Sorcerer versus Wizard?

Post by One Two Three Five » Wed May 16, 2018 1:00 am

It's just so not worth it. Really, it's not. It's not. Please don't tell people it's good mechanical advice when they're asking for mechanical advice. Depending on the choice it wont always hurt you too bad but that doesn't make it good.
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Re: Pros/Cons Sorcerer versus Wizard?

Post by StrykerMontgomery » Wed May 16, 2018 1:30 am

One Two Three Five wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 1:00 am
It's just so not worth it. Really, it's not. It's not. Please don't tell people it's good mechanical advice when they're asking for mechanical advice. Depending on the choice it wont always hurt you too bad but that doesn't make it good.
If its mechanically always a poor choice on the basis that you cant learn every spell, then so is always picking sorcerer. I seriously recommend specialists over sorcerer.
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Re: Pros/Cons Sorcerer versus Wizard?

Post by Hunter548 » Wed May 16, 2018 2:37 am

StrykerMontgomery wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 1:30 am
One Two Three Five wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 1:00 am
It's just so not worth it. Really, it's not. It's not. Please don't tell people it's good mechanical advice when they're asking for mechanical advice. Depending on the choice it wont always hurt you too bad but that doesn't make it good.
If its mechanically always a poor choice on the basis that you cant learn every spell, then so is always picking sorcerer. I seriously recommend specialists over sorcerer.
Specialization is a bad idea because you lack control over what you give up, and all of the schools you do give up have fairly important tools.

Abjuration, Evocation and Transmutation all give up conjuration; Good luck having any sort of ability to adventure without a meleer if you can't use conjurations. This option also loses you raise dead, as well as the grease/web line of spells which are extremely useful. This is generally an awful choice -- Conjuration is consistently ranked as one of the best schools for a reason.

Divination and Enchantment lose illusion: This means you lose one of your best single target defensive spells, and your only native protection against spells like harm and wail of the banshee. This is a really big sacrifice as well.

Necromancy gives up divination. Good luck ever dealing with an invisible creature, another mage, or a stealther. Terrible idea.

Illusion gives up Enchantment. The main painful thing you lose here is mass haste, which you can survive without, but also is your bread and butter in PvE party contributions. If you have to give a school up, this is one of the better choices, but it's still not a great one.


Comparing a specialist wizard to a sorcerer is a hilarious idea. Sure, a specialist wizard may match a sorcerer at level 5... but by level 20, the sorcerer has a full extra spell over even a specialist sorcerer at every level. What's more, the sorcerer can if he needs to cast, say, 33 IGMS. It's rare that the sorcerer will need that many, but he can do it if he has to, and doesn't have to decide until he casts that 33rd IGMS. The wizard, meanwhile, has to decide when he rests, and is omegaboned if he ever needs something else in levels 6-9. That's why a sorcerer is a better IGMS bot.
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Re: Pros/Cons Sorcerer versus Wizard?

Post by Alantar » Wed May 16, 2018 8:15 am

In my humble opinion, one of the most important things when casting a spell is the DC. In this particular field, the wizard tends to outperform the sorcerer, since the former has more feats, which means more ESF. Of course, a sorcerer can have two ESF, depending on the build, but with a mage is pretty easy to have four. On the other hand, there's no doubt that the Sorcerer is able to cast more spells per rest. Besides, the IGMS doesn’t have DC, so the ESF is not really important to become a DPS machine.

Due to these reasons, I think that you should choose a wizard or a sorcerer depending on your RP preferences and gameplay style.

For PvE, I’d go for a sorcerer if I wanted to cast a lot of spells (spawn IGMS, etc.), and I’d go for a mage if I wanted to use the summon to help tanking and the other spells to support the party (Bigby’s for enemies that get out of “control”, some specific spells to deal with a particular creature/boss, etc.). Of course, I’m speaking in general, since both classes can do both jobs.

For 1v1 PvP Sorcerer vs Wizard… I don’t know. The Wizard has more variety and usually higher DCs, but the Sorcerer can counterspell him, since he is able to cast more spells. Maybe I’d go for the wizard, since the EDK can’t be counterspelled and that should be enough to break the “Counterspell mode” in the Sorcerer. I don’t really know, since my PvP experience has been usually against fighters. What I can say is that, for PvP, you don’t need to be able to cast many spells/rest, the right spells in the right moment are usually enough (no more than 5-6 spells per fight).

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Re: Pros/Cons Sorcerer versus Wizard?

Post by StrykerMontgomery » Wed May 16, 2018 11:29 am

As a sorceror you cant get every must have/useful spell from every school. So tactically giving up a certain school to have something between a wizard and a sorcerer is perfectly valid. And a sorcerer doesn't start to eclipse a specialist wizard in spells per day till lvl 18. Meanwhile specialist Wizard is getting more feats and more skill points.

You are right though in his lack of ability to spontaneosly do things is what will make him never a sorcerer and why I been arguing the strength of a sorcerer is in their spontaneous casting, not spells per day and in their own unique way have their own flexibility.

My whole point is that it's not spells per day vs flexibility.
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Re: Pros/Cons Sorcerer versus Wizard?

Post by Fluffys » Wed May 16, 2018 11:32 am

Cortex wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 11:07 pm

End of the day, it's not worth it because if you're short on spells you can just have a sip of beer and nap for a full book again. It'd only matter in super rare occasions where you're casting your full spell book or for some reason you can't rest in a long long time
Not so rare.

I don't have enough fingers to count the number of times where resting was really impossible, inconvenient or incredibly risky.

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Re: Pros/Cons Sorcerer versus Wizard?

Post by susitsu » Wed May 16, 2018 11:47 am

Fluffys wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 11:32 am
Cortex wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 11:07 pm

End of the day, it's not worth it because if you're short on spells you can just have a sip of beer and nap for a full book again. It'd only matter in super rare occasions where you're casting your full spell book or for some reason you can't rest in a long long time
Not so rare.

I don't have enough fingers to count the number of times where resting was really impossible, inconvenient or incredibly risky.
End-game dungeons? Lost Desert where I rested constantly at the Lost Caravan and Oracle's digs? There are areas, but you should go into these fully prepared for what is to come.

The point is that just because a wizard has to rest twice when a sorcerer would have only rested once doesn't mean sorcerer is better.

Personally, I'm playing my first non-weave master sorcerer up right now and on one hand, with fifteen sorcerer levels I feel like Ive got enough mass haste to literally go to 30.

But I also hate that because I carry all zoo buffs for my party I don't have see invis, UV, or Darkness. The first two of which my wizards live in, and the latter of which is an incredibly useful spell that one has to prepare for specifically. Even if it's one round of using a UV wand, you still got a round on them.

And so literally all I can think about is how much this sucks compared to a wizard. The limited spell selection of sorcerers is actually brutal. I cannot god damn stand it, it's so weak. Versatility is a universally important factor that empowers wizard over sorcerer by so much.

then we can again go back to the fact wizards only need 30 spellcraft for feats, don't need to fullgear spellcraft, get tons of skill points, UMD for divine stuff unlike 99% of sorcerers who live life in some disgusting world that lacks Word of Faith scrolls and still have their incredibly limited spell options.

I do feel in any given situation a sorcerer is already 'on-guard' and 'prepared,' when a wizard has to be prepared specifically, but this is just an aspect of wizard's incredible gameplay and in my eyes, means absolutely nothing because Extended Greater Sanctuary exists.

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Re: Pros/Cons Sorcerer versus Wizard?

Post by NegInfinity » Wed May 16, 2018 12:04 pm

TimeAdept wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 9:55 pm
27 sorc 1 ranger 2 rogue
Not allowed.

Arelith has build resctriction - when you take a level in a new class, you're required to take 3 consecutive levels in it. If you try to bypass the restriction, you'll be instantly forced to relevel.

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Re: Pros/Cons Sorcerer versus Wizard?

Post by StrykerMontgomery » Wed May 16, 2018 2:53 pm

NegInfinity wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 12:04 pm
TimeAdept wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 9:55 pm
27 sorc 1 ranger 2 rogue
Not allowed.

Arelith has build resctriction - when you take a level in a new class, you're required to take 3 consecutive levels in it. If you try to bypass the restriction, you'll be instantly forced to relevel.
That person was discussing his amia days. Anyways we are all just talking to ourselves as the OP guy had picked a sorcerer over a day ago.

All I was saying is those who are considering sorcerer purely for more spells per day but still want to be int based, keep feats, and don't need spontaneous casting, then a specialist wizard would fill the role because a sorceror would be even more restricted than a smart choice of specialist.
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Re: Pros/Cons Sorcerer versus Wizard?

Post by Fluffys » Wed May 16, 2018 3:26 pm

susitsu wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 11:47 am
Fluffys wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 11:32 am
Cortex wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 11:07 pm

(something.. hate these. They are just clutter)
Yup. Dispells are asses. Losing summons sucks. You can make do with wands (to an extent) and whatnot but that spells expensive. Include other things that can happen (here) _________.

Either way, I don't care. The discussion is already twisted enough.
Sorcerers are feasible, wizards are feasible. Specialist wizards can be done, although some forbidden spellschools suck if you are aiming for power.

Enjoy

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Re: Pros/Cons Sorcerer versus Wizard?

Post by Cortex » Wed May 16, 2018 5:43 pm

susitsu wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 11:47 am
then we can again go back to the fact wizards only need 30 spellcraft for feats, don't need to fullgear spellcraft, get tons of skill points, UMD for divine stuff unlike 99% of sorcerers who live life in some disgusting world that lacks Word of Faith scrolls and still have their incredibly limited spell options
Why would you stop at 30 when you can go the extra tenth of a mile for 33? All skill points from gear, gears and mod count toward sc/5 for saves, which you never have enough of. Unless I do stealth, tumble and UMD and other skills you could call unimportant like Bluff and Lore, I can't honestly recall a time I was short on skill points.
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Re: Pros/Cons Sorcerer versus Wizard?

Post by susitsu » Wed May 16, 2018 7:09 pm

Cortex wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 5:43 pm
Why would you stop at 30 when you can go the extra tenth of a mile for 33? All skill points from gear, gears and mod count toward sc/5 for saves, which you never have enough of. Unless I do stealth, tumble and UMD and other skills you could call unimportant like Bluff and Lore, I can't honestly recall a time I was short on skill points.
Because I cast Protection from Spells and there's a bonus to saves vs. spells cap. So I do have enough spellcraft.

Ive never been short on skill points for a wizard, no, I just like to really stretch my skill points out on them. Since you can naturally detract from lore and spellcraft, and one just needs 26 umd with a -1 charisma mod, you simply get points to move about. I'd never ever do a wizard without lore as well, since...why would you not cheaply invest in a skill to understand all languages and I haven't played a wizard without bluff.

Wizards with hide and ms are also hilarious fun.

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Re: Pros/Cons Sorcerer versus Wizard?

Post by Opustus » Wed May 16, 2018 7:19 pm

TimeAdept wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 9:55 pm
Opustus wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 1:54 pm
About counterspelling: On my former server Amia, Sorcerer was considered the better pick because it could perform about the same as Wizard in most regards, but in the rare cases of large-scale PvP and mage v. mage action, the Sorcerer had the edge on the Wizard due to having more dispelling. In particular, Sorcerer30 with Evocation or Necromancy focus and AutoQuicken III was contended the most potent caster build available in skill-based PvP matchups. Even though PvP wasn't that common, the Sorcerer30 was crowned champion because it could still solo PvE sufficiently without giving up its dispelling edge. The nastiest of Sorcies gave up Mass Haste for other spells, which I consider a very naughty thing to do. I haven't had much practice with spellcasters in PvP so I don't honestly know a squat, but this sayeth the legend.
27 sorc 1 ranger 2 rogue

30 sorc was never a thing besides people wanting 'pure' builds.

spell slot gear was also WAY easier to get so it was pretty common to see wizards with 7-8-9 spell slots for each spell level and sorcs with 10-11-12.
27/1/2 was definitely the more common choice and made life easier with Discipline, UMD, AC, and so on, but some rather experienced caster players (Terra, most notably) still contended the Sorc30 was superior because of the best ability to dispel and counterspell in party and mage v. mage PvP, as explained above. It was definitely a thing of arguable power. On paper, the difference of 3 CL seems a bit diminutive to me, but if victory really came down to whoever won the dispel rolls and counterspelling, then I suppose the 15% improved chance in dispel checks actually counts.

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Re: Pros/Cons Sorcerer versus Wizard?

Post by Cortex » Wed May 16, 2018 9:10 pm

susitsu wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 7:09 pm
Cortex wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 5:43 pm
Why would you stop at 30 when you can go the extra tenth of a mile for 33? All skill points from gear, gears and mod count toward sc/5 for saves, which you never have enough of. Unless I do stealth, tumble and UMD and other skills you could call unimportant like Bluff and Lore, I can't honestly recall a time I was short on skill points.
Because I cast Protection from Spells and there's a bonus to saves vs. spells cap. So I do have enough spellcraft.

Ive never been short on skill points for a wizard, no, I just like to really stretch my skill points out on them. Since you can naturally detract from lore and spellcraft, and one just needs 26 umd with a -1 charisma mod, you simply get points to move about. I'd never ever do a wizard without lore as well, since...why would you not cheaply invest in a skill to understand all languages and I haven't played a wizard without bluff.

Wizards with hide and ms are also hilarious fun.
With protections from spells, you can still benefit from 60 spellcraft before you hit the cap. Not to mention rely on your own saves in case PfS is stripped from you.
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