Blackguard Building Help

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liver and bones
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Blackguard Building Help

Post by liver and bones » Mon Sep 25, 2017 6:04 pm

For once I feel like playing an absolute baddie, and the blackguard class seems really interesting on Arelith given the changes in summons. Despite that, I have zero idea how to build on on Arelith. I've seen talk of a fighter/BG/bard mix, but haven't seen a detailed build.

Also, what would a blackguard's strengths be? I hear a good AC but bad AB, but then good AC and good AB.

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msterswrdsmn
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Re: Blackguard Building Help

Post by msterswrdsmn » Mon Sep 25, 2017 6:44 pm

Depends on your stats. One of the difficult things with blackguard is that its stats requirements. You need your AB stat as a main stat, as well as decent CON and CHA. Unlike the paladin class, you cannot have a negative CHA score, because the Dark Blessing feat will apply that negative score as a penalty to your saving throws, rather than just ignore it like paladins do.

How high you want your CHA to be depends on whether or not you plan on taking advantage of divine power/shield to boost your damage/ac respectively.

that said, the general trend to blackguard building seems to be melee damage/focusing on your summons. I don't play much lately nor build blackguards much, so i can't really give you much more than that. Sorry

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High Primate
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Re: Blackguard Building Help

Post by High Primate » Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:33 pm

Some builds I've worked on (not recommended):
Charisma Battlecleric
"E-Dodge Brycer"

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Baron Saturday
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Re: Blackguard Building Help

Post by Baron Saturday » Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:30 pm

Peppermint's build is probably the most optimal/balanced in that thread. Stat-wise, I'd do 17 Str (w/ gift), 12 Dex, 14 con, 14 int, 8 Wis,16 Cha (w/ gift). I'd go bard over rogue, for spellcraft and SF/GSF: Conjuration.

Personally, I'd prefer a 16 BG/6 Bard/8 Fighter build (10/4/6 pre-epic), losing 1 feat and 1 AC in exchange for getting bard levels and thus tumble/UMD earlier, but that's knowing that I'll probably never hit level 30.
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liver and bones
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Re: Blackguard Building Help

Post by liver and bones » Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:50 pm

Baron Saturday wrote:Peppermint's build is probably the most optimal/balanced in that thread. Stat-wise, I'd do 17 Str (w/ gift), 12 Dex, 14 con, 14 int, 8 Wis,16 Cha (w/ gift). I'd go bard over rogue, for spellcraft and SF/GSF: Conjuration.

Personally, I'd prefer a 16 BG/6 Bard/8 Fighter build (10/4/6 pre-epic), losing 1 feat and 1 AC in exchange for getting bard levels and thus tumble/UMD earlier, but that's knowing that I'll probably never hit level 30.
What are they key feats a blackguard should focus on?

So far I've got the obvious: Power attack, cleave, weapon focus, weapon spec, imp. crit, knockdown, imp. knockdown, expertise, imp. exp., epic fiendish servant.

Is there anything that's a must to get the most out of BG or that really lets a BG shine?

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Peppermint
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Re: Blackguard Building Help

Post by Peppermint » Mon Sep 25, 2017 11:40 pm

Divine Might, Divine Shield. Optimal is to go for 16 CHA (i.e. 14 + gift) and gear up for a total of +9 to the stat. This nets you a decent might/shield.

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Baron Saturday
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Re: Blackguard Building Help

Post by Baron Saturday » Tue Sep 26, 2017 12:12 am

Peppermint wrote:Divine Might, Divine Shield. Optimal is to go for 16 CHA (i.e. 14 + gift) and gear up for a total of +9 to the stat. This nets you a decent might/shield.
Note that you can only take these feats on Blackguard levels.
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gilescorey
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Re: Blackguard Building Help

Post by gilescorey » Tue Sep 26, 2017 12:57 am

ALWAYS TAKE BLINDFIGHT ON A MELEE/RANGED CHARACTER

NOT HAVING BLINDFIGHT ON A MELEE/RANGED IS THE WORST BUILDING DECISION YOU CAN PROBABLY DO

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High Primate
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Re: Blackguard Building Help

Post by High Primate » Tue Sep 26, 2017 1:55 am

High Primate wrote:viewtopic.php?f=36&t=14009
Oh yeah. To echo what was said above, I wasn't suggesting the build at the beginning of that thread. You want to go with the Ftr 11/BG16/Rogue 3 with a sword and shield. I recommend rogue over bard for improved evasion.
Some builds I've worked on (not recommended):
Charisma Battlecleric
"E-Dodge Brycer"

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Baron Saturday
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Re: Blackguard Building Help

Post by Baron Saturday » Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:26 am

gilescorey wrote:ALWAYS TAKE BLINDFIGHT ON A MELEE/RANGED CHARACTER

NOT HAVING BLINDFIGHT ON A MELEE/RANGED IS THE WORST BUILDING DECISION YOU CAN PROBABLY DO
+1

Didn't notice that blind fight was missing from the feat list.

Blind fight is necessary.
Rolled: Helene d'Arque, Sara Lyonall
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liver and bones
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Re: Blackguard Building Help

Post by liver and bones » Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:29 am

High Primate wrote:
High Primate wrote:viewtopic.php?f=36&t=14009
Oh yeah. To echo what was said above, I wasn't suggesting the build at the beginning of that thread. You want to go with the Ftr 11/BG16/Rogue 3 with a sword and shield. I recommend rogue over bard for improved evasion.
The 18 DEX requirement seems really hefty. Is it possible to get through the build?

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Baron Saturday
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Re: Blackguard Building Help

Post by Baron Saturday » Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:35 am

liver and bones wrote:
High Primate wrote:
High Primate wrote:viewtopic.php?f=36&t=14009
Oh yeah. To echo what was said above, I wasn't suggesting the build at the beginning of that thread. You want to go with the Ftr 11/BG16/Rogue 3 with a sword and shield. I recommend rogue over bard for improved evasion.
The 18 DEX requirement seems really hefty. Is it possible to get through the build?
These posts have me so confused. First off, rogue 3 isn't gonna get you improved evasion, although with +9 to saves from charisma your reflex might be high enough to make regular evasion worthwhile.

And liver, where are you getting 18 Dex from?
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liver and bones
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Re: Blackguard Building Help

Post by liver and bones » Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:57 am

Oops! I was reading that off the FL wiki. Ignore that.

Orian_666
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Re: Blackguard Building Help

Post by Orian_666 » Tue Sep 26, 2017 4:16 am

Fighter 11/ BG 16/ Bard(or rogue) 3

Human:
Str: 15 (17 with gift, 24 with stat dump)
Dex: 12
Con: 14
Wis: 8
Int: 14
Cha: 14 (16 with gift)

No buffs or boosts, just end game gear at level 30 (assuming full enchanted gear that includes a couple hard 5%'s, like one or two) and you can pull 40AC (before expertise), 42AB, around 300-400 damage after 7 hits and depending on crits.

With buffs (full UMD remember) you're looking at around 48AC (before expertise and divine shield), 45AB, damage remains about the same.

Health will only be around 350-400ish, don't have exact numbers.

The build was fairly straight forward and simple.
Levels 1-7 fighter, 8-17 BG, 18-20 fighter, 21-26 BG, from here you can take 1 fighter for epic wep spec and then 3 bard, or 3 bard and then 1 fighter at 30. Either way it doesn't really make a massive difference.

Feats are simple enough, definitely get the obvious ones like: KD and Imp KD, Exp and Imp Exp, Blindfight, Power Attack, Cleave, Wep Focus in whatever weapon you want I went Longsword for FOIG reasons, Wep Spec, I only bothered with Divine Shield because I think +9 damage from Divine Might for a few rounds is a wasted feat but that's just my opinion.

Epic feats: Epic Wep Focus, Epic Wep Spec, Epic Prowess, Armor Skin, Epic Fiendish Servant (character level 26, BG level 16), I had 1 Epic feat to play around with and I took Epic Will because even though all round your saves are gonna be pretty damn solid there's just so much annoyance that Will can save you against I figured it'd be worth the feat (a good alternative is ESF:Disc).

It's entirely possible to fit in Divine Might, and a few other things as the pre-epic feats I listed are just the ones I consider important and a definite to take. Some people like to go for SF:Conj and GSF:Conj, which are definitely a solid option I just personally prefer a few different feats instead of them, with both of them your summons get +2 to pretty much all their stats which is definitely nice.

After it all, fully buffed, end game enchanted gear, and with Imp Expertise and Divine Shield on (be ready to chug TS pots) the stats were:
AC: 67 (57 no Imp Exp)
AB: 35 (45 no Imp Exp)
Damage: Around 50-60 per hit, accounting for crits.
Fort: 33 (43 vs spells)
Ref: 22 (32 vs spells)
Will: 28 (38 vs spells)
DIsc: 60 (without ESF: Disc)
Heal: 30
Spellcraft: 50
Tumble: 30 (base skill for the AC)
UMD: I dumped heavy into UMD to be honest, so including the Charisma bonus I ended up with 41, honestly this is a bit much but if you want to be able to use pretty much any alignment, race, etc etc restricted Artefact then 30 UMD is the safest bet. There just wasn't much else to put the last few points into so I left them in UMD just to be safe. Also if you want to just hang it around 15 for wands and scrolls only (with your flat charisma before buffs but with gear being +6 you only need to invest 9 into it) and then dump the rest into something like Bluff that's also a good call because of the Evil thing, you can take the +6 bluff minor gift, that with your charisma you can easily pull around 35-40 bluff depending on the situation. That's before any Bluff gear which could easily bring it close to 50+.

Keep in mind that on top of all of this you'll also have your epic summon at your side, which is real damn handy.

Spaniardl
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Re: Blackguard Building Help

Post by Spaniardl » Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:36 pm

I think the 'idea' of a blackguard is cooler than the class actually turns out to be. In my opinion, they are really feat starved, stat starved, and don't have many plus sides. HOWEVER! My suggestions are below...

- Definitely be a human, so you have extra skill points and an extra feat.
- Plan on putting skill points into taunt (preferably maxing it out). Taunt is awesome.
- Definitely fit improved expertise because when divine shield goes down, it is very helpful to run and toggle improved expertise while it is down so you don't get hit easy while recasting divine shield.
- The fiendish servant is very cool, definitely get epic fiendish servant.
Also, does spell focus conjuration or necromancy empower this summon at all? I have no
idea...That would be cool though.

Spaniardl
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Re: Blackguard Building Help

Post by Spaniardl » Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:37 pm

Oh yea, i also agree that you should ditch divine might. It does do not last long enough to be worth getting. It is enough worrying about keeping divine shield up.

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Baron Saturday
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Re: Blackguard Building Help

Post by Baron Saturday » Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:40 pm

Spaniardl wrote:I think the 'idea' of a blackguard is cooler than the class actually turns out to be. In my opinion, they are really feat starved, stat starved, and don't have many plus sides. HOWEVER! My suggestions are below...

- Definitely be a human, so you have extra skill points and an extra feat.
- Plan on putting skill points into taunt (preferably maxing it out). Taunt is awesome.
- Definitely fit improved expertise because when divine shield goes down, it is very helpful to run and toggle improved expertise while it is down so you don't get hit easy while recasting divine shield.
- The fiendish servant is very cool, definitely get epic fiendish servant.
Also, does spell focus conjuration or necromancy empower this summon at all? I have no
idea...That would be cool though.
SF/GSF: Conjuration gives +1 skills, HD, AB, Damage, AC, and saves for the fiend summon. SF/GSF: Necromancy should do the same for the undead summon. Both summons also benefit from the Epic Caster Bonus.
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Astral
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Re: Blackguard Building Help

Post by Astral » Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:46 pm

I like how 3 rogue lvls also rise the sneak dice even more. Getting to numbers like 6d6 or 7d6 on a character that has a big bad fiend meat shield is very nice, and Evasion on a character with something like 20-25 flat reflex is such a big quality of life boon in my opinion. Arguably, bard dip is better if you prioritize spellcraft and taunt (and there no reason why you shouldn't but that's a matter of playstyle).
Currently playing: Seth Xylo

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Baron Saturday
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Re: Blackguard Building Help

Post by Baron Saturday » Tue Sep 26, 2017 9:10 pm

I also like bard for the crafting options it opens up. Bard instruments are really good.
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Peppermint
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Re: Blackguard Building Help

Post by Peppermint » Tue Sep 26, 2017 9:37 pm

No reason to take bard for taunt. Blackguards get that already. Bard's still pretty good, though.

And y'all are crazy if you say Blackguards are weak on Arelith. They're an upper tier class.

Orian_666
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Re: Blackguard Building Help

Post by Orian_666 » Tue Sep 26, 2017 11:09 pm

Ah yea, forgot to factor in the sneak attack damage on damage done, that does bring it beyond 50-60, easily.
And like Peppermint said, BGs may not go toe to toe with a WM cookiecutter build, but them with their sneaks, and with their summon (which gets +3 epic caster bonus to a lot of stats, and +5 to some others, 2 more to everything with SF/GSF:Conj) makes them a hugely formidable character. Definitely among the upper tier!!

I did forget to mention too that you can forgo the Charisma and dump heavier into Str and Con making them a bit better in melee, they lose the advantage of Divine Shield and the bonus to saves (which are still pretty damn decent especially with spellcraft) but gain a stronger up front melee presence.

Personally i'd take the Charisma build though :)

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gilescorey
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Re: Blackguard Building Help

Post by gilescorey » Wed Sep 27, 2017 12:03 am

Ironically divine/might shield builds are one of the best to go "toe to toe" with the much maligned weaponmaster, considering the pretty hefty AC they can get. Plus their summoned fiends do a pretty meaty amount of damage (for a summon) -- nothing to sneeze at.

They just need prep-time, but if they can afford it there's not much that can just flat-out beat them down with no difficulty.

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Seekeepeek
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Re: Blackguard Building Help

Post by Seekeepeek » Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:07 am

Baron Saturday wrote:
Spaniardl wrote:I think the 'idea' of a blackguard is cooler than the class actually turns out to be. In my opinion, they are really feat starved, stat starved, and don't have many plus sides. HOWEVER! My suggestions are below...

- Definitely be a human, so you have extra skill points and an extra feat.
- Plan on putting skill points into taunt (preferably maxing it out). Taunt is awesome.
- Definitely fit improved expertise because when divine shield goes down, it is very helpful to run and toggle improved expertise while it is down so you don't get hit easy while recasting divine shield.
- The fiendish servant is very cool, definitely get epic fiendish servant.
Also, does spell focus conjuration or necromancy empower this summon at all? I have no
idea...That would be cool though.
SF/GSF: Conjuration gives +1 skills, HD, AB, Damage, AC, and saves for the fiend summon. SF/GSF: Necromancy should do the same for the undead summon. Both summons also benefit from the Epic Caster Bonus.
it's only the fiend that get Epic_Caster_Bonus according to the wiki tho.

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Baron Saturday
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Re: Blackguard Building Help

Post by Baron Saturday » Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:52 am

My bad. Wow, that makes the undead... Really useless, huh? Like the Doom Knight is obsolete two levels before you even get it. Unless I'm missing something?
Rolled: Helene d'Arque, Sara Lyonall
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hoshi
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Re: Blackguard Building Help

Post by hoshi » Wed Sep 27, 2017 2:50 pm

Eh, the blackguard tends to be a tank where the undead is added benefit, as opposed to a wizard that might need an elemental to tank.

My blackguard actually prefers the undead as it doesn't cast (and doesn't get caught in casting state) while providing a free source of flanking for sneak attacks. That allows me to not need to worry about using the Player 1 Tool on it much at all while I'll micro manage the fiend. So the undead will be used moving from A->B while the fiend will be pulled out when a challenging fight is about to happen.

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