Weave Master and Auto Quicken

[Hamatreya]

It's been brought up before, but I thought I might revive the discussion for the new forums. I think we should allow the Auto Quicken feats to stack, but only for circles four and below, so that upon taking Auto Quicken III all spells of circles 1-4 become "spammable."

Please read on before making a judgement. As it stands right now, the Auto Quicken line is not worth the investment of four feats which could otherwise be used to augment DCs, skills, and survivability/versatility. Why is it not worth it? Because there is no functional difference between a 49 second cooldown and a 43 second cooldown. Higher circle spells are still once-an-encounter casts, which (while that's absolutely how it should be) nullifies any benefit of taking Auto Quicken beyond (maybe) Auto Quicken II. The system I'm proposing would still limit higher tier spells to once-an-encounter as it leaves circles 5-9 unaffected. It would, however, give an actual incentive and tangible benefit to the heavy investment required to attain Auto Quicken III, namely the freer use of lower-circle spells the DCs of which do not typically pass the mid-thirties, even on a dedicated DC caster build. For comparison, this will still not be as powerful as Quicken Spell alone was pre-nerf, as that enabled unlimited casts of powerful spells like hold monster and firebrand while only requiring the investment of a single feat.

While this system might seem overpowered at first glance (and I freely admit the possibility that it is) consider not only that it requires one to be level 30 in order to realize it fully, but that it takes the investment of four feats, three of them epic, and thus excludes the character from investing those feats in additional spell foci, epic skill foci, great charisma feats, and epic spells.

The way it would work would go something like this:

Auto Quicken I - 2nd circle spells have no cooldown
Auto Quicken II - 3rd circle spells have no cooldown
Auto Quicken III - 4th circle spells have no cooldown

0 - 0 second cooldown
1 - 0 seconds
2 - 0 seconds
4 - 0 seconds
5 - 25 seconds
6 - 31 seconds
7 - 37 seconds
8 - 43 seconds
9 - 49 seconds

Anyways, that's just for your consideration. Thanks for reading. Edited for grammar.

[Alchuilas]

For real!

[Peppermint]

Yes. Weave masters seem quite underpowered at the moment. They were overpowered before, but this was largely due to their ability to spam low level DC spells pretty early. By the time they gained the ability to spam them under this model, however, the DCs for their spammable spells would likely be too low to be reliable.

Another model I had considered is the following:

Quicken Spell - Reduces cooldown 6 seconds.
Automatic Quicken Spell I - Reduces cooldown of all 1-3 level spells 6 seconds.
Automatic Quicken Spell II - Reduces cooldown of all 1-3 level spells 12 seconds, all 4-6 level spells 6 seconds.
Automatic Quicken Spell III - Reduces cooldown of all 1-3 level spells 18 seconds, all 4-6 level spells 12 seconds, all 7-9 level spells 6 seconds.

[Hamatreya]

Yes. Weave masters seem quite underpowered at the moment. They were overpowered before, but this was largely due to their ability to spam low level DC spells pretty early. By the time they gained the ability to spam them under this model, however, the DCs for their spammable spells would likely be too low to be reliable.

Another model I had considered is the following:

Quicken Spell - Reduces cooldown 6 seconds.
Automatic Quicken Spell I - Reduces cooldown of all 1-3 level spells 6 seconds.
Automatic Quicken Spell II - Reduces cooldown of all 1-3 level spells 12 seconds, all 4-6 level spells 6 seconds.
Automatic Quicken Spell III - Reduces cooldown of all 1-3 level spells 18 seconds, all 4-6 level spells 12 seconds, all 7-9 level spells 6 seconds.

This would practically have the same effect as my model, only it would affect the cooldown timers on more powerful spells (e.g. firebrand would have a cooldown of just 13 seconds) while keeping them more-or-less once-an-encounter casts, which is how it should be. Both models would work and I think neither would be overpowering considering the investment.

Thanks for contributing.

[Mithreas]

Peppermint's suggestion is closest to what I'm considering.

[Hamatreya]

Peppermint's suggestion is closest to what I'm considering.

I'm in favor of Peppermint's suggestion, actually. It seems far more, I don't know, elegant than mine?

[Hamatreya]

Would quicken spell stack with auto quicken? E.g. if I cast a quickened level 4 spell (which unquickened would have a 7 second cooldown), would it be 0 seconds?

[Peppermint]

Glorious.

Hey, Mithreas, I hope I don't come across as pushy, but some of my weavemaster friends are growing really bummed.

Any chance we can get an ETA on the next great weavemaster update (tm)?

[Mithreas]

Well, it's coded as follows but not live yet.

AQ1 removes the cooldown from level 2 and 3 spells (vs Quicken removing it from level 2)
AQ2 makes level 4-6 spells count as 2 levels lower for the purpose of cooldown - so again, 6s shorter than Quicken.
AQ3 makes level 7-9 spells count 3 levels lower, and since they can't normally be Quickened, that's an 18s improvement on all of them.

[Hamatreya]

Mith is boss.

[Mithreas]

Someone update the wiki for me please (went live earlier).

[Hamatreya]

Hate to be greedy, Mith, but is there any way you could code the cooldowns in such a way that Shadow Conjuration spells like Invisibility and Darkness drain and refresh spells-per-day from their circle (circle 2) instead of Shadow Conjuration's circle (circle 4)?

Right now, Shadow Conjuration subspells refresh the circle of the subspell (i.e. circle 2 for Invisibility), while subtracting a cast-per-day from Shadow Conjuration's circle, 4. This is easily remedied by simply casting a different fourth circle spell, but I'm curious if it is a fixable thing.

[The Rambling Midget]

Someone update the wiki for me please (went live earlier).

http://wiki.arelith.com/Sorcerer#Weave_Master

[Mithreas]

Yes, at some point I need to add special case code to check for the shadow conj (and shades/gr-sh-conj) variants and update the spell circle to the correct level.

They should have the cooldown of the parent spell, and refresh that spell level.

Thanks TRM.

[Bones Mist and Moons]

I'm glad to see this thread was brought back. I was thinking about doing it myself.

When I first heard about Weavemaster I thought it was an awesome concept. Unlimited spells, but they have cool downs. Now, having been told this and told others about it; there is always a sudden when your told or you tell someone that the cool down is "Universal". Everyone stops and goes, "Wait, wait. Let me get this straight..."

For this reason I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one a little confused, and I'd be surprised if I was the only one who wanted to know if it could be done this way, but can you make the Cool downs Individual or based on Spell Level rather than Universal? Editing the Auto-Quicken Spell is only helpful to players after Lv 26. In the meantime I'm Lv 23 Weavemaster and I'm out DPSed by a Lv 7 Half-orc Fighter and it takes me ten minutes to kill creatures half my level. My only hope is a summoned creature, but Sorry to Burst Cantremedythis's bubble, NOT everyone wants to play a conjuration focus mage, and at my level NONE of the dominateable humanoids in the Underdark are effective where I should be leveling and Dominate Monster eats through expensive spell components really fast.

Sorry my entire post is complaints. Sorry if I'm perceived as a troll or whatever. Just, would like to have fun playing my character again (preferably not having to wait till Lv 27 either).

[Mithreas]

It's possible but if cooldowns were per spell circle, you'd be able to cast a spell every round, and the cooldowns wouldn't mean anything.

[Hamatreya]

It's possible but if cooldowns were per spell circle, you'd be able to cast a spell every round, and the cooldowns wouldn't mean anything.

When I first learned of the class, I thought it was a cooldown that simply locked out that spell circle. To me, that seemed grossly overpowered... one could spam firebrand, fireball, issac's lesser, etc. and just repeat the cycle. That would kind of murder the point of the class.

[Hamatreya]

I'm glad to see this thread was brought back. I was thinking about doing it myself.

When I first heard about Weavemaster I thought it was an awesome concept. Unlimited spells, but they have cool downs. Now, having been told this and told others about it; there is always a sudden when your told or you tell someone that the cool down is "Universal". Everyone stops and goes, "Wait, wait. Let me get this straight..."

For this reason I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one a little confused, and I'd be surprised if I was the only one who wanted to know if it could be done this way, but can you make the Cool downs Individual or based on Spell Level rather than Universal? Editing the Auto-Quicken Spell is only helpful to players after Lv 26. In the meantime I'm Lv 23 Weavemaster and I'm out DPSed by a Lv 7 Half-orc Fighter and it takes me ten minutes to kill creatures half my level. My only hope is a summoned creature, but Sorry to Burst Cantremedythis's bubble, NOT everyone wants to play a conjuration focus mage, and at my level NONE of the dominateable humanoids in the Underdark are effective where I should be leveling and Dominate Monster eats through expensive spell components really fast.

Sorry my entire post is complaints. Sorry if I'm perceived as a troll or whatever. Just, would like to have fun playing my character again (preferably not having to wait till Lv 27 either).

By the way, I am cantremedythis ;P

Sorry, but if you want to play an evocation focused mage, play a regular sorcerer or a true flame. You can't expect to be all blasty and burny with a Weave Master -- that's just not what the class /is./ Weave Masters are not DPSers. The class is, in my opinion, more about the subtle and strategic use of magic, because yes, while you have an unlimited supply, you still need to plan out each encounter; otherwise you'd just be a true flame with buffs. Certain schools are going to be more fitting to the class than others, namely schools that facilitate strategic use of magic (conjuration, enchantment, illusion) over blasty types (evocation, necromancy).

[Bones Mist and Moons]

Oh, Hi Hamatreya. *Waves*

I'm not trying to make my character a DPSer. I'd just like the option of being able to incinerate the creature trying to kill me, rather than cowering behind party members or summons. I'm an epic level sorcerer for crying out loud, and I can't do anything for myself without pulling out concealments and crowd controls to cover me while I take 30 seconds to flame arrow a lowbie mob to death.

When your out leveling with a party you don't usually summon elementals or bring dominated creatures because your party can handle it and you don't want to sap XP gain. If your soloing a Weave Master, yeah, summons. If your in a party though, you end up casting Mass Haste then sit back and watch while your buddies do all the heavy lifting. If your friend is trying to run away from the boogeyman about to eat them, you end up standing there watching because your cool down won't let you kill it or paralyze it to get it off of them. If you CAN cast something, you do so hoping that your single spell is enough to stop them, because if it's not the odds are good your buddy will die while you wait for the cool down to let you cast the next spell.

ALOT can happen in 7 seconds.
Most fights are actually over in less than 30 seconds.

I can understand your opinion that Weave Master's aren't a cannon class and our DPS is lower than other classes, but does it have to be THAT much lower?

By the time we reach Lv 18+ we should be able to maintain a more regular rate of DPS to compensate for the annoying levels of saving throws and spell resistance creatures have in our leveling areas. Even without high saves and SR, they easily have more than enough hit points that it's going to take us multiple hits to kill the thing, and our summons can't always be there to protect us. If the DC of my spells were good enough to crowd control more effectively, I'd have the time to patiently wait for my summon to take care of everything. Unfortunately, this is not the case. I cast a crowd control, they resist, and I have to wait to cast again. In the meantime you pray your summon doesn't die and can affectively hold aggro. If it can't, it's time to run because a new summon will probably just die, again, and your crowd controls fail, and you can't DPS enough to kill IT before it kills YOU.

Your only hope is Darkness, but when a creature hostiles you the NWN mechanics automatically makes the agro initiate an Attack command on your character. Half the time the creatures go right through darkness, ignoring the concealment effects, and proceed to beat you into the floor. This is all assuming the creature doesn't already have the ability to see through darkness, or invisibility. Using darkness to cover you while you wait for cool downs is about as effective as holding up your hands and saying "Please don't hurt me!".

All of this not only happens, it happens regularly.

I apologize for my attitude. I'm glad your enjoying your weave master. But after watching a Feylock steal my glory for mass hasting better than me, the only thing our Class has for itself is buffing the party. I'd like to state that if the Weave Master is meant to be a purely Buff-Focused Spellcaster, just change the name to Ward Master so that others don't share my misconception of what this class is supposed to be.





What if the Cooldowns were universal for spells Lv 6-9. So if I cast any 6-9 Spell, it pops the cooldown and I can't cast any of them, but I'm still able to cast spells 5 and lower on individual cooldowns. I won't be able to spam Firebrand repeatedly, or back-and-forth with Horrid Wilting and Wail of the Banshee; but at least I'm able to consistently keep up DPS. Then again, if Hamatreya is correct and this class should have a lower DPS ability than other classes, perhaps make the cool downs universal 1-3, 4-6, 7-9? At least then we can cast three spell per round and we don't feel like we're sitting on our thumbs while party members are bleeding.

You commented on the original thread if I recall that one of the reasons for the cooldowns was to turn players away from focusing on high level spells in favor of lower level ones. If I can only cast one 6-9th Level spell per encounter, it's still restricted but my ability to DPS with lower level spells isn't totally nerfed.

[Hamatreya]

I understand your frustration, BM&M, but Weave Master simply isn't meant to deal out massive amounts of damage. I am not quite sure how you're finding survival so difficult, though, unless you're completely shunning defensive spells. You have more than darkness and invisibility. You have ethereal visage . You have stoneskin, greater stoneskin, shadow shield, improved invisibility, haste for fast retreating, and you can maintaun all of these indefinitely. You also have a great host of disabling spells at your command, which, while their DCs aren't incredibly high, they can be spammed.

My character Vals does not have a single direct damage spell in his repertoire. Not a single one. He'll dominate and summon ancient elementals and planar creatures and remain invisible while they do all the work. He has holds, confusions and a great many buffs to augment his minions. If he needs to escape, he can cast haste and get out of harms way much, MUCH faster than any other class save monk. This, I think, is how the weave master is intended to be played: a support/minion master role. Also consider that Yellena is working in revamping undead, so if your Underdarker is a necromancer, be prepared to play the part.

[Bones Mist and Moons]

I'll break down my leveling zones for you.

Currently there are three ideal leveling zones for me and my level. Anywhere else I'm getting almost no xp.

Cloaker Canopy. Cloakers resist magic, period. I cast Flame Arrow, they have to roll SR per arrow. 5 arrows, and maybe one will hit. This is how I tested the level of their spell resistance. Nothing else seems to work either. They also have Improved Evasion so if these dex built monkish creatures succeed their reflex save (Which they do) my arrow does no damage anyways. My Summoned Elder Elemental struggles to hit their AC, and they have 50% concealment. I'll watch for about 5 minutes while these creatures (which spawn about 2-4 at a time, have flying, and true sight) tear my Warded Elemental apart, slowly. In the meantime, no spell I cast at them will do anything, and obviously if they can kill my warded elemental summoning a new one without wards wont help.

Burning Shore. Dragons. *Shakes fist in the air.* True Seeing, Flying + Wind Buffet, and a Flame Breath Weapon that does around 120 damage (kiss the elemental ward goodbye). They have that typical dragon level spell resistance, so half my spells fail to even work on them. They're immune to mind affecting and like to cast dispels. If even ONE of these creatures spawns, I can kiss my shady underdark rear-end, "Goodbye".

The Slime Temple. Oozes, jellies, slimes, and puddings all see through darkness. These ones I actually CAN beat the SR on. However, Arcane Oozes have Dispel Magic (or something) on hit. If I get hit even once, there is a seriously risky chance they dispel my summoned creature. Granted, invisibility hides me from them still. However; they still dispel the wards I put on my summon. The Blackguards of the Evil Eye beat my Summon into the ground, and have a Will Save of about +17 against my hold person, confusion, dominate, etc. (Yes, I'm an enchanter). The other creatures in this little pit of joy, are Priests. They like to include Spell Resistance as one of their wards, enjoy using dispel magic like very other spellcasting NPC in Arelith, and their magic CAN and WILL kill my summoned creature. If I use darkness to conceal my summon against the blackguards, he'll kill them, but I'll also break my invis and agro every creature down there and as long as the darkness continues to ping hostility my invis will continue to be broken repeatedly so I can't just hide again. ALL OF THIS, is only the first two floors of the inner temple. The entire last floor is flooded with Aboleths that are apparently immune to every spell in my arsenal and can melee my summon into a puddle on the floor WITHOUT using their insanely painful Psionic Burst which can't be blocked or resisted and does anywhere from 30-90 damage a pop in an aoe. They have multiple uses of it. (forget my invis).

Yes, I try to draw creatures one at a time. No, there are no moderate level humanoids in the Underdark for me to Dominate to help me. Yes, I could use Dominate Monster; if I want to throw 3 spell components out the window every 20 minutes or so, but then ALL the money I make on these runs would be spent just buying more. Apparently not a single blacksmith in the UD can supply me with copper ingots to make my own (I should have been an alchemist -.-*).

And YES! I could probably try leveling on the Surface (Abyss is on the surface server)! I mean what's the worst that could happen? If the LAG doesn't kill me, any Lv 15+ Surfacer seeing a lone drow (no one believes disguises, even if I had bluff), will either kill me or capture me. All this risk isn't worth the aggravation of trying to find a regular leveling zone to call my own.

Friends? Sure! They can take me leveling, and they do. But what about the other 12 hours a day I'm logged on by myself with no one in my level range that doesn't want to kill me? I'd like to solo once in a while.

[Bones Mist and Moons]

Oh. Wards. Yes, I use them all.

Mage Armor, Protection from Alignment, Shield, Premonition, Protection from Elements, Lesser Mind Blank, Shadow Shield. These however only make me die slower. Like I said, I'm not trying to make the Weave Master a DPS class, but it'd be nice if I could throw a damaging spell to help my summon kill the creatures I'm fighting before they kill it.

Haste and Run? Obviously, I already do that. But that isn't leveling, that's running for your life. Running in circles like a chicken with your head chopped off seems like an embarrassingly stupid thing to be doing on an "Epic Sorcerer" and if the lag decides to kick in for even a second I can still get pwned.

No, I'm not a necromancer. Why would I be? Undead Summons have sucked since normal NWN nights, let alone Arelith. Even if they didn't Sorc/Wiz doesn't get Create Greater Undead.

Support/Minion Master Roll? I can play one of those. It doesn't mean squat when my Minions are losing the fight and all I can do is renew the wards they are already failing in. I don't expect DMs to sweep through UD and suddenly lower the saving throws and SR on creatures, so it'd be nice if I could at least cast my spells more regularly in the hopes that ONE of them succeeds before my summon dies and I have to run back to town with my tail between my legs.

[Hamatreya]

Can you imagine soloing these places as any other class? No?
They see through darkness, so true flamers are screwed. They spam dispels, so every other caster class is screwed. They have high AB and AC, so fighter types are screwed. Maybe a druid dragonshaper? You are probably doing far better than most classes would.

[Mithreas]

I'll throw my 2p in here too.

Playing a weave master isn't meant to be simple or easy. Indeed, in my ideal world, playing any class solo isn't simple or easy - each class is meant to have its own strengths and weaknesses, and combat is meant to be a tactical affair and not just button mashing.

My vision for an epic sorcerer is that you have two choices. Either you have access to epic magic (Wail etc) but it takes a lot out of you, or you have the ability to spam a lot of powerful magic in a short period of time, but then need to rest to recover. Weave master timers basically enforce a mini rest after each spell, rather than a significant, disabling rest after shooting 20ish attack spells off.

Yes, if you fire off Wail and fail to kill everything, you're going to spend a long time (in combat terms) trying to avoid the creatures that survived. Absolutely. But you can do that to every single spawn in an area... and so if you find a bunch of spawns with weak fort saves, you can keep firing Wail at them until you run out of targets. Weave masters need to find a way to beat each spawn, and then use that tactic. Regular sorcs just unleash everything they have, and then rest regularly - which sucks for soloing.

Both these sorts of sorc, and indeed wizards and fiendlocks, find summons really useful. If you don't like summons, there are other ways to play a weavemaster, but you're going to need to be mobile (or rely on wands etc). This to my mind isn't at all unfair, given the way other classes play - weavemasters have a huge amount of potential power, but have to use it very carefully. It's not a simple blasting class - that's more TF territory,

[Bones Mist and Moons]

Actually, yes, people solo those areas. People I know are lower level than me, in fact.

Mith, your suggestion 'Sounds' good. Find creature with low fort saves and wail em, or find another weakness in any other leveling zone and exploit it. This would apply if ...

Everything in the Underdark didn't have High Spell Resistance!

No spell I cast will matter so there is no strategy to devise. I admit 'Everything' is an exaggeration, but creatures in the epic level range will almost always resist what you throw at them the first throw or two. In these levels it's a matter of keeping up with the mobs in terms of threat. They can do more harm to me in 6 seconds than I can do to them in 30. It's out of balance.

I'm not asking you to let me spam Isaac's missile storm. I'm asking that Weave Master's be able to put out two more spells per a fight. Even if I can cast a 7-9 spell, then follow up with a 4-6, and repeat 1-3 spells afterwards, I'm not DPSing better than any other class and still have to carefully decide which spell out of Three Entire Spell Levels is best suited for the job.

My Weavemaster won't be able to cast high level spells repeatedly in a fight because their cool downs exceed the usual 30 seconds fights take. Still restricted. You can already squeeze out two medium level spells per fight as it is. Individual Cooldowns would just allow the Weavemaster to keep up their low level spells such as darkness, grease, and your newly updated sleep without becoming cannons.