CHRONOLOGY OF ARELITH

All discussions, suggestions, submissions, organizations required to keep the Encyclopedia Arelithica up to date, and worthy of historical annals.

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CoastalSurf
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Re: CHRONOLOGY OF ARELITH

Post by CoastalSurf » Fri Jun 05, 2015 5:51 pm

Is this still being worked on?

I could add a bit more detail regarding the illithid situation in the UD and the return of the silver chalice to Myon as well, if so

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The Man of the Moon
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Re: CHRONOLOGY OF ARELITH

Post by The Man of the Moon » Fri Jun 05, 2015 9:54 pm

If you want to provide data, feel free.

Unless... unless that was FOIG, then I may try to get it IG with an historian I started.

I will try to create some History resources IG, including a chronology and more stuff.

The own Chronology, I feel it as FOIG, this is why I will try to make a new one IG with IG resources.
Disclaimer: All what I write are simple opinions of a player and always with honest intention to contribute constructively and from respect, but with a poor knowledge of English.

Thank you

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Re: Arelithian Chronology (Huge Spoiler) DRAFT

Post by CragOrion » Tue Dec 01, 2015 5:03 am

CragOneEye wrote: I know for a fact Bane was dead when I joined arelith, and his resurection happened about same time Daller Mange became Dreadmaster.

DM's made a big deal of this event following with current FR lore at the time. As Arelith took place 3.0 and followed all the way through to 3.5 lore. and I think 3.5 lore was being introduced during BR still. If that gives you a point of reference for what year in FR ir was when 0 AR took place.
I finally got around to checking
Bane was resurrected in 1372. If this was the same year that Mange became Dreadmaster, then it looks like 1372 would indeed be the first year of the Arelith calendar, putting the Time of Troubles at -14 BR

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Re: CHRONOLOGY OF ARELITH

Post by Bashagain » Thu Jun 16, 2016 9:20 pm

"~20's BR (Arelith Forest – Myon).- Myon settlement. Vestool Moonarrow led the remnants elves of the tainted Minmir and became the First Coranal of Myon, holding the Silver Chalice, a relic of Myon."

Actually Vestool came to Arelith with Baltak as his entourage right before Benwick turned to Light Keep under Xyndral's control.


"~20’s BR (Cordor).- The senator Tifa "Theopania" Nguyen drafted the first codified laws of Cordor during the Senate era.
This first codification was the basis of all Cordor law, outlasting the Senate and surviving well up through Vetinari's early reign."

Tifa was a politician who joined Cordor's Senate after Allana was ousted from her position. She definitely came after Aristotlus and Luthian.

The stories about Claissa the Druidess, Gabriel Judicatory, Curundu, Shane Gramble, Boogor (lol), Leonyn Pendraith should be in -20's BR.
"Drider-man, with Great Smite cometh Great Responsibility to SMITE THEE!!!" - Erik Silverarms, in The Underdark. Circa AR 63

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Re: CHRONOLOGY OF ARELITH

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Wed May 29, 2019 6:51 pm

Aristotlus was still captain of the Cordor Gaurd quite a while after Ryan Valtheran started to be the dreadmaster.

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Re: CHRONOLOGY OF ARELITH

Post by theCountofMonteCristo » Thu May 30, 2019 2:55 pm

Aramentia Sendia was Mayor of Bendir for ~2 years, before handing it off to Sasha Silverscales-Dizonne for ~8-9 IG years. She handed it off to Peroigrin Rodoc then.
~60’s to 70’s AR (Bendir).- Amy Silverscales-Dizonne suceed as leader of Bendir to Aramentia.
Amy Silverscales-Dizonne succeeded Arthur Swordhill

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Mr_Rieper
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Re: CHRONOLOGY OF ARELITH

Post by Mr_Rieper » Fri May 31, 2019 3:12 am

I miss The Man of the Moon.

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Seven Sons of Sin
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Re: CHRONOLOGY OF ARELITH

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:10 pm

Mr_Rieper wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 3:12 am
I miss The Man of the Moon.
This whole subforum is simultaneously enlightening, fantastic, terrifying and problematic.
Marsi wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:48 pm
because the narrative wills it.

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Re: CHRONOLOGY OF ARELITH

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:43 am

Seven Sons of Sin wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:10 pm
Mr_Rieper wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 3:12 am
I miss The Man of the Moon.
This whole subforum is simultaneously enlightening, fantastic, terrifying and problematic.
Why the underlined part? I'm genuinely seeking to understand why any of this is a bad thing.

For ages I've tried to wrap my head around this. People rail against documenting things as they actually happened, as if the world IC shouldn't organically seek the truth and discover a general consensus of how history passed, or at least have their own words on an agreed upon consensus -as every civilization since the dawn of time and written language has sought to do.

No one reads the Harry Potter series and begrudges Hermione for knowing every fact in Hogwards: A History, because there are studious characters who follow history.

In the DragonLance world, there is Astinus and the other scribes. In Forgotten Realms, there are the scribes of Oghma and the Sages of Candlekeep.

Documented, accurate history, is a thing. It's a good thing. It adds depth to the world, it doesn't subtract it. The idea that there are characters who were alive and present for some of these historical things on the server, and that the world should just have forgotten, that no one should be able to know or research that these things happened unless they were already there, seems inherently selfish and exclusionary to me.

Why shouldn't someone be able to lore-junkie out on a documented history of the island, then roll up a 160 year old elven bard/historian character if they want to? Why is it the only way this is okay is if you log in, seek out a specific group of individuals from a specific time period, and ask their permission to know?

Establishing falsehoods as part of a historical narrative can also be a thing, too- but it's a narrative, and a shared one- so we should know it's the generally accepted idea, but as players also know that it's wrong, so we can decide for ourselves if there is some means by which we should/could/want to discover this information.

Without the lore-books FR isn't FR. Arelith isn't 100% canon, but without being willing to document Arelithian history, how can we expect it to be anything but no matter how many centuries of IG history it establishes?
Bane's tyranny is known throughout the continent, and his is the image most seen as the face of evil.
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Seven Sons of Sin
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Re: CHRONOLOGY OF ARELITH

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:47 am

I get where you're coming from. I also applaud the efforts of searching for truth. I like historian characters.

But the efforts of establishing a universally-agreed upon timeline for just about anything Arelithian is problematic. I actually disagree now (and maybe I did at the time), the methodology of tracing Arelith's history. It should have been thematic and loosely chronological. If I get 4 players to account for the same retelling of a particular event, you're likely going to get 4 different stories. And that's fine in the real world, but Arelith has a different dynamic of dealing with people who aren't trying to give honest accounts, sometimes ICly or OOCly.

There are things in Arelith (as a server) that you fundamentally cannot reconcile with. Primarily how kobolds used to be Cordorian Guards.

History also creates "ownership." I don't like the whole legacy aspect that people sometimes to strive for. It's how we get old, stagnant roleplay because people are incapable of letting go.

I also think Arelith's history should be in flux and discoverable. But I think it should be doing so, in-game. There's been a crazy amount of effort to do this when the Book Matrix became a thing, but there was a long period before that is probably Arelith's (from a history perspective) "Dark Age."

I also would constantly, constantly question the "accuracy" of anything historical. This starts to bled from a player down to characters. I don't like lore junkies. I can't imagine the cringe I would feel if I come across characters trying to assert what year Galahad built Light Keep.

I view citing lore and Arelithian history through a very skeptical lens. Is this a character who's just inspired by The Highwaymen? Or is this character using Elraindel's namesake to reassert some now-passed legacy bit? Why do we give any credence to any of Arelith's past? Why is it actually important?

Recording Arelith's history, really, should be a set of questions that inspire new players and inspire old players to ask questions and create roleplay. A clinical chronology doesn't do that, it's just trying to find *truth* - and that's the goal of real-world history.** That shouldn't be the role of Arelith's history.





**note the increasing trend of historiography where we're actually start to challenge the notions of secondary sources and their interaction with primary sources. What's become more fascinating is the history of how we tell history, and how "truth" isn't so clear cut, as its bundled with so many biases, lens, and norms that it can be hard to truly identify the facts.


edit: An example. Do you know about Maximilian the Accountant? He's an undescribed Baatorian figure who's reappeared throughout Arelith's history. He often makes pacts with players during cataclysmic events to exchange knowledge for "something else." Characters often never learn about something else. But who is he, and what role has he actually had?

That's a cool bit of history. Do we need to write down OOCly what times he appeared? to whom? during what?

No. Leave that to investigators. But we 100% should market this nefarious character's history as an intriguing bit of Arelithian lore.
Marsi wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:48 pm
because the narrative wills it.

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Re: CHRONOLOGY OF ARELITH

Post by Marsi » Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:28 am

Seven Sons of Sin wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:47 am
I get where you're coming from. I also applaud the efforts of searching for truth. I like historian characters.

But the efforts of establishing a universally-agreed upon timeline for just about anything Arelithian is problematic. I actually disagree now (and maybe I did at the time), the methodology of tracing Arelith's history. It should have been thematic and loosely chronological. If I get 4 players to account for the same retelling of a particular event, you're likely going to get 4 different stories. And that's fine in the real world, but Arelith has a different dynamic of dealing with people who aren't trying to give honest accounts, sometimes ICly or OOCly.
This. Meta-history efforts should happen in the material game world where they are checked by the forces of time, memory and space. Arelith history can't and shouldn't be unspooled into a linear narrative like a fantasy novel or campaign setting on the forums where it can't be erased, changed, challenged, propagandized or retold through song. Part of a believable world is the inconvenience of things just decaying and being lost to time because there were none to treasure them, or the argument over fact or the weaponizing of historiography. Too much transparency and overly convenient historical recall undermines the impression one feels for the depth of the passage of time. Bearing witness to newer players chinese-whisper events that I myself attended years ago, and of course having done so myself about the deeds of others, is an amazing phenomenon, and one that can't happen naturally with an everlasting, absolutist record.

To see an example of the absurdity, see the timeline somewhere around here where Kuma went through and earmarked the events that were, despite illustrious naming and hagiographical recollecting, in actuality just "now-banned Snuggybear hellballs a bunch of people". Or "excessive DM event that never went anywhere". These kind of things aren't preserved as in-game folklore because they mean nothing to no-one.

EA works because it's really only a mirror to works that exist(ed) in-game. It supplements and empowers IG historical efforts rather than drowns them out, like this project did.
He can neither read nor write and in him already there broods a taste for mindless violence. All history present in that visage, the child the father of the man.

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Re: CHRONOLOGY OF ARELITH

Post by Mr_Rieper » Wed Jun 05, 2019 2:37 pm

**EDIT** Deleted most of what I wrote here as it came across as passive-aggressive when I do actually understand what Seven and Marsi are saying.

It's irritating to simultaneously understand the need for gatekeeping the more obscure pieces of lore as well as understanding the new players who just want pieces of Arelith trivia to help create their characters. I think sometimes we take "FOIG" too far, or place it on a pedestal for the most mundane bits of information that are really just common knowledge on Arelith.

I said I missed the Man of the Moon because he had the initiative to make things like this when nothing solid existed previously. Had he been around when the EA actually became a thing, he would've probably found a more creative and effective way to catalog the information. As it is though, this timeline is no longer being updated - and yes, OOC timelines are not an effective way of keeping track of events, and should never be considered the standard.

However, as it stands, this is all we have. And I'm grateful for it. It's a starting point. We have the EA now, we can make something better. This is no longer being updated, but it is still useful for more in-depth historic investigation while in-character. If somebody quotes this OOC timeline on their ingame character as though it were the "word of god", just grill them on it. They'll fold like cardboard.

As it stands, this is either harmless or a list of things to start researching IC. If you're reading this and you're thinking it's a good idea to make more timelines like these? Don't. We have better alternatives now.
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Sat May 11, 2019 4:55 pm
Be the change you want to see, and shape the server because of it. Players can absolutely help keep their fellow players accountable.

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Marsi
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Re: CHRONOLOGY OF ARELITH

Post by Marsi » Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:45 pm

Mr_Rieper wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 2:37 pm
Guys, numerous people have pointed out that events on this timeline are inaccurate or very rough estimates. This timeline is no longer being updated, because The Man of the Moon stopped visiting the forums a while ago. I believe, due to the hostility that his relatively innocent efforts were getting him, though I can stand to be corrected on that one (Much like literally everything on this timeline).
I don't recall any hostility at the time whatsoever. There was a push to establish some ground rules, like not letting things get too contemporary (seldom acknowledged as time went on), but nothing more. I held off voicing these kind of doubts because there was no EA at the time, and I didn't want to dampen anyone's curiosity in Arelithian lore even if I felt it should be done IG.
Again, Seven + Marsi, I'm not understanding the issue here. You're worried this can't be contested? That it's overly convenient? That more attached players are using this to assert "ownership" over current legacies? That this timeline looks like it belongs in a fantasy novel, not an online world?

It's a simple timeline. On a forum. And a bloody rough one at that. If you get the impression that somebody is being lazy and directly citing these events as if they are anything more than just a simple marker on a guesstimating timeline, call them out on it IC. Question them. You'll see that they have to either fold like cardboard or start making stuff up on the spot. I agree that this is mostly junk data. That's entirely the point, this is a first attempt to give a rough framework to people to create their own IC research, which is no longer being updated. Again, nobody is continuing with this. All future attempts to catalog history can be up to your own standards. It's an inaccurate OOC reference page, not the word of the server admin.
There is no issue. I'm not sure why this thread has cropped up again, but I'm just responding to other people voicing their ideology concerning game history with my own. It's an interesting, niche discussion I'm personally invested in, and one that doesn't really get to be had everyday -- there's not really any urgency here, this isn't "WE NEED TO BAN ALL FORUM HISTORY NOW", rather just an exchange of ideas long after the fact.

Anyway, I think you're underestimating the capacity for shadow rules/lore take root. The predecessor to EA was basically rubbish stewarded by some guy with a massive grudge against certain people, as the stories go. Great swathes of it were nonsense and outright propaganda, and yet it became "canon" simply because it was there, and had more staying power than IG documents. People will always defer to the scripted/mechanical/online before they do the dynamic/player-originated/in-character. Being out of the game world, it commanded a level of "authenticity" that IG documents did not. It couldn't be solidly contested IG and yet had this memetic persistence. It had no existence in the world, and so none of it could act as roleplay artefacts. Something I love is how there's this certain history book that still gets passed around to this day. It's great to see a copy fall into the hands of curious characters and have it generate roleplay and story hooks. It's something physical they (their character) can interact with, talk about, share, just have in their inventory. That's really all I'm trying to promote here.
Do you have ANY idea how many people want to have some frame of reference for Arelith's own lore, but can't find anything? Or worse yet, are met with "FOIG" as if it's in any way helpful when they haven't even made a character? What's wrong with an incomplete timeline? There's a time and a place for "FOIG" but you guys are downright stingy with even the most basic Arelith trivia sometimes. I understand the need to not have everything, or even most things revealed. But I'd be lying if I said it wasn't infuriating to watch curious players driven off by this snuggybear gatekeeping. Use your head, we need somewhere to start.
I think there's a lot of new players who have no connection to the server's past and want for some kind of broad timeline. But it's more out of a utilitarian need, a tool for them to understand the world and get their characters up-to-date. I don't consider that the same thing as what we're discussing here, because that's something I'd actually support. A vague, semi-frequently updated "what your character would know" kind of deal, with big, objective facts? Yes. But this timeline was becoming quite a bit more than that. Exact dates and names are too much imo and should be the subject of IG efforts.

I don't know where the stingy/gatekeeping comments are coming from. Seven and I have to be among the most shameless game history evangelists on the server. Almost all of my characters have in some way been about inspiring in others how I feel about Arelith's dynamic history. Tbh, I've met very few who care about it.
If you think you can make something better on the EA, go right ahead and make it. Nobody is stopping you. Hell, I'd even like to see it. Again, this timeline project is now dead. And as it is? It's better than nothing.
I'm perfectly happy with the EA. I contribute to it when I can, and have done so frequently in the past. At the moment it should have historically-important notes and records collected from actual message board data all the way up to 50/60's AR. If a new player is curious about the past, that's a great place to dig into. But if they want a cut and dry sourcebook style rundown, well, they're not going to find that anywhere and to attempt it is to take after the tower of Babel.

--------------

wrt to your edit, Rieper, I would actually a support a "this is what your character would know" style thing, and said as much in my original. I can't find it atm, but there's something similar on POTM Ravenloft that will say, for eg., "on year such and such, Vallaki and Wachter skirmished", and other well-known happenings and infamies. I could see that working for Arelith -- "on 130 AR, Wharftown was destroyed by combined Cordorian-Amnian forces after a brief but bloody war" -- enough to give a frame of historical reference without making IG efforts redundant and giving amateur and newcomer historians a taste for the grandeur of the past and have them want for more.
He can neither read nor write and in him already there broods a taste for mindless violence. All history present in that visage, the child the father of the man.

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Re: CHRONOLOGY OF ARELITH

Post by Mr_Rieper » Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:54 pm

I agree Marsi. I was being silly and hotheaded in the previous version of that post. I do want to see more WYSIWYG research and history in-game. I believe the EA is part of the book matrix and is used to generate new history books. Or was intended to be.

I suppose all I was trying to say is that I'm grateful this timeline was made, it gives ideas on what to research.
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Sat May 11, 2019 4:55 pm
Be the change you want to see, and shape the server because of it. Players can absolutely help keep their fellow players accountable.

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Re: CHRONOLOGY OF ARELITH

Post by three wolf moon » Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:13 pm

Mr_Rieper wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:54 pm
I agree Marsi. I was being silly and hotheaded in the previous version of that post. I do want to see more WYSIWYG research and history in-game. I believe the EA is part of the book matrix and is used to generate new history books. Or was intended to be.

I suppose all I was trying to say is that I'm grateful this timeline was made, it gives ideas on what to research.
Myself and some others have been trying to keep track of IG history as we've seen it, but it's hard knowing that it can be destroyed or hidden away at any time by anyone who doesn't care for our version of events. People get crazy about history, and you just can't trust them to Be Nice and think of other players. That's why there isn't an immediate place you can FOIG this stuff.

What I would like to see is a library/archive somewhere in game, with bookshelves or fixtures like the Book of Lawgiving in the RH. Server fixtures that can't be edited by anybody, but that people can add to. I think it would take some DM effort when the boards get full to create new ones, but it would be worthwhile. I also think that a phasing out of template loot books should happen, and a real effort to encourage players to add historical books to the loot matrix should go underway. So many of the default NWN books are meta and silly, and I don't think you'd have problems finding people to volunteer oversight of adding more in-character books that tell about Arelith events. Oversight being, there are concerns to be had for grammar and possibly metagaming, but I think it would be effort well spent.

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Re: CHRONOLOGY OF ARELITH

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:24 pm

A perfect example of the extreme amounts of bias Arelith can have towards its own histories, players, and characters is the in-game naming of areas and the import of characters as NPCs. Sasha Silverscales-Dizonne, to my knowledge, never had to roll a 5% to become a permanent feature. Nor did Daedin Angthalion in a certain elvish area. Are these characters historic and important? Why did they get chosen over Timmy? Great questions. I have no idea.

In addition, the EA was notorious because it was the personal preference of a select few to dictate who was considered "important/significant" as well as what the name of certain Eras were. Not to dismiss anyone, but when you see a certain period described as "Thayvian Wharftown", you can see where interests lie. It also tries to cement this as truthful and absolute. But I'm sure there were plenty of other in-game events going on during this time that were equally important. However, because of OOC history buffs, this terminology for this timespan is really just known as this.

And that's problematic. I hope this paints a better picture of where I'm coming, Mr_Rieper.

I think the intent behind all of this work is fantastic, but like Marsi, there's some stuff to draw in the sand - which, really, is about drawing the least amount of stuff possible.

To echo, I think it would be very fantastic if there were better high-level snapshots of certain areas/settlements/factions on the server. I think this can be a great way to introduce narrative hooks as well as cool backgrounds to certain things.

But again, you really have to keep it less-individual specific. For example, my first instinct is that this "Banite Synopsis" should talk about the impact of Ryan Valtheran, but then I'm sure someone out there is going to talk about all the creepy borderline roleplay that Valtheran had with drow women and that's stuff people conveniently forget about.

See how this can lead to issue?
Marsi wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:48 pm
because the narrative wills it.

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Re: CHRONOLOGY OF ARELITH

Post by Borin Drakkmurl » Fri Jun 07, 2019 6:10 pm

Going a bit off topic, but still adressing some of the things that were mentioned before, I'd just like to add one thing.

History is more than time lines and dates. Far, far more.

It is objects, from the very small to the monumental, from weapons to furniture.

It is places, from now gone way shrines to whole countries.

Researching, investigating, recuperating and then theorizing about all of these things is what makes playing historians and scholarly characters so damned fun. All of it can, and should only be done succesfully In Game.

None of this means that I dont apreciate the original effort of this whole thread. Which I do, very much. Just reading through those date entries was fascinating as hell.

I just think it belongs, in a more streamlined and Game Manual type of deal, in a place like that Player Guide that Titania is overseeing.
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Re: CHRONOLOGY OF ARELITH

Post by CragOrion » Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:23 pm

Timelines like this can be useful for more than just learning history. They can help you craft a character that fits seamlessly into the recent history of the server, or even not so recent history. For example, ,what if you want to make a character that was from wharftown? It helps to have a resource that tells you exactly when Wharftown was destroyed. Things like that.
But really, we should stop derailing this thread. Its for making the timeline itself, not debating its own existence. Maybe start a new thread if you want to do that

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