Raw power of Flameborns.

[MoreThanThree]

because of the graphics glitch you get from darkness on most laptops, people tend to hate darkness,

remove laptops from the premises

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

I have literally not found an area I cannot solo that does not involve monsters with true seeing (and this is also usually doable) or very high SR (the only thing that actually stops you) by using a tactic that nets me zero damage in most every encounter. In fact, I take more damage hunting in groups than I do by myself, because I cannot guarantee my party will not alter the responses of my enemies in such a way that destroys my ability to keep myself from harm.

At the risk of sounding cruel, twenty year old computers glitching out to darkness is not a balance problem with the class, it's a balance problem with your machine, and it's time to upgrade.

The following tactic becomes viable at level 10.

Step One: Walk through dungeons carefully until you encounter a spawn group on the edges of your vision. (Slow and steady wins the race).

Step Two: Darkness. Multiple darknesses, in fact. You want to be able to flee one and move to the next one if the monsters charge your bubble.

Step Three: Establish a path the monsters will take to close the gap. (You will have to utilize a line of sight block on ranged attackers to force this).

Step Four: Fill that path with walls of fire (Note the plural). (If fire immune, fill path with Clouds of Bewildermint- again note the plural).

Step Five: Summon Shelgarn's persistent blade. It is immune to your walls of fire AND your clouds of bewilderment. Move it forward just far enough to lure mobs through said AoE's. (You could use incendiary cloud, but I'm cheap and prefer saving spell components).

Step Six: Pick an AoE damage spell (Firebrand and Ball Lightning are great go-tos). Cast until all things are dead. They will die on the way to you.

This works almost everywhere against pretty much everything- except monsters with high SR; you're a mage, why are you soloing monsters with high SR?

**** PS **** Jumping monsters will sit on your face. (Dragons, wyverns, harpies at early levels).

[BegoneThoth]

Iirc mobs now just ignore darkness and bee line the caster.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

Iirc mobs now just ignore darkness and bee line the caster.

Unless they have UV or True Seeing, my experience is that they make a bee-line to the darkness so they can find you. This is why you create more than one darkness. Running out and into a new, non-overlapping darkness re-breaks LoS and keeps you from being targeted again... until you throw more damage and they charge your next bubble.

A Shelgarn's blade outside of the darkness will also draw attention away from you while running.

There's some aggro management tactics involved, but it's still completely viable to move from spawn to spawn taking zero damage.

[Amineh123]

So, you're a natural born talent at playing as a TF. Tactical mastermind, and a good player overall.

TF still need some adjustments in it's favor, to make it less masochistic.

[One Two Three Five]

The ability to stretch and claw and bite some semblance of playability out of a class option doesn't make it good. Just giving them potion use would fix a whole lot of their problems with playability without giving them an untenable power-boost.

[Hesitation marks]

Just giving them potion use would fix a whole lot of their problems with playability without giving them an untenable power-boost.

the words of a man yet unowned by an infinite number of hasted maximised igms

[Amineh123]

Mind that you speak of pretty high level character here.
Besides potions are not magic from different sources. Potions are... potions?

[Hesitation marks]

I wouldn't call level 18 (minimum for 9th level spells like maximised IGMS) very high. Reaching level 18 requires you to achieve only a rough 35 percent of the amount necessary for level cap.

Even so, that's not what I'd call a solid argument. Of course you must take the full breadth of a class's offered abilities into account in a discussion on why class changes might be necessary.

[Lorkas]

Just giving them potion use would fix a whole lot of their problems with playability without giving them an untenable power-boost.

the words of a man yet unowned by an infinite number of hasted maximised igms

Sweetberry Wine is mundane.

[Hesitation marks]

I've never seen mundane Sweetberry Wine. The bottle I have in Magog's inventory is not mundane.

[Sockss]

Just giving them potion use would fix a whole lot of their problems with playability without giving them an untenable power-boost.

the words of a man yet unowned by an infinite number of hasted maximised igms

A regular caster has more than enough igms's to nuke everyone anyway.

A regular caster has much more damage in a shorter time (see edk / summons)

A regular caster also doesn't get wrecked by someone with gsf abjuration.

True flames are unequivocally bad outside of being guarded in pve.

Personally I'd let them use scrolls, wands and potions - just have no access to summons.

Even then they'd still be inferior to a regular caster outside of being guarded in pve. Though they wouldn't be as much of a lemon as they are now outside of that.

[MoreThanThree]

Give them TS scrolls and EDK pls

[Cortex]

give them permanent freedom

[Lorkas]

I've never seen mundane Sweetberry Wine. The bottle I have in Magog's inventory is not mundane.

Crafted sweetberry wine is(was) definitely mundane (one of my characters was a supplier for a TF that was making as much of it as they could get empty wine bottles for). Sweetberry wine that was found in a treasure chest or as a monster drop might not be mundane though--that's the pattern on a few types of normally-mundane items.

[Hesitation marks]

If sweetberry wine is supposed to be mundane then I suppose my point is moot, even if bugged lists still sort of make me halfway right. I still have reservations about giving them wands or scrolls. TFs who can breach mantles and shield are an unpleasant thought.

I also disagree that EDK outdamages 240/round. It's generally much more common for someone to have AC and concealment than GSF abjuration. Not to mention it's really only sorcerers that have access to a ton (eight IIRC, if they don't bother with casting time stop, extended g.sanc, gate or any DC spells) of max'd IGMS; wizards will struggle to fit more than 2-3.

[yellowcateyes]

I also disagree that EDK outdamages 240/round.

Rather than EDK outdamaging the IGMS, I think the point made is that a vanilla sorc can have both an EDK on the field and hasted IGMS spam, resulting in much more damage output. (Along with access to Mord's, Truesight, etc., to make sure the damage is actually applied.)

[Nitro]

A vanilla sorc can only keep that up for what, 4 rounds at most? Whereas the trueflame can keep it going all battle every battle without a need for rest.

[Scurvy Cur]

And while this is okay in PvE, the lack of an ability to push through content with a summon is pretty hindering. And losing to an unsupported TF in PvP basically requires that you take your brain out of your skull, put it in a jar, and drool on the keyboard long enough to die to IGMS without clicking on any one of the very many consumables that shut TF off.

[Xuuldar]

It's always odd to me the dislike of TF because "They can IGMS for 240 every round" but no one seems to have any issue with a WM or Barb that can do just as much or more damage per round, has way more defense and HP, can use Pots and eventually wands and scrolls, has access to the best CC in the game, oh yeah and can do all that infinitely.

Past that I agree with Scurvy Cur. Don't get me wrong, I like my TF but PvE can be pretty painful and someone has to be pretty clueless for it to be effective in PvE. I think access to potions (or at least more craftable mundanes and easier access to the bottles to craft them) would make it better without over powering. The AI change/Darkness nerf hurt the TF pretty bad.

[BegoneThoth]

It's always odd to me the dislike of TF because "They can IGMS for 240 every round" but no one seems to have any issue with a WM or Barb that can do just as much or more damage per round,

because igms has really long range and has no save or attack roll and ignores armor.

a wm usually has to get to you and then roll vs your ac. igms it's 'do they have shield and abjuration foci? no? ok here comes the unresistable damage.'

[CragOrion]

At the risk of sounding cruel, twenty year old computers glitching out to darkness is not a balance problem with the class, it's a balance problem with your machine, and it's time to upgrade.

I wish I could say I agree. MY computer is fine, its the people who end up being in my party that complain about the darkness because they're on laptops. Its pretty hard for me to say "you get darkness glitch? Update your system or gtfo" With that attitude, I'd pretty quickly stop getting people tolerating me in a party.

[StompyKobold]

I can confirm that Sweetberry Wine works for a TF. I made and used them on my TF. The wine bottles were a pain to find but they are much more frequent now in the loot matrix in crates, barrels, etc.

A TF in PVP is pretty sad, your hasted IGMS is great, and the distance on it is great. But how many PVP fights start at max range? I can't even think of one I've been a part of that did. I guess if you prehostile someone and then rped that you would kill them on sight next time you saw them. But that seems really unlikely. Mostly someone hostiles from 30 ft away and you are KD and dead within 1 attack round by the WM. Yeah, even 240 damage wouldn't save you there.

Mainly, you really need backup, that's all there is to it. Or, go at a snails pace.

[GrumpyCat]

As someone who has leveled two Trueflames to 30 and am now on my 3rd one, id like to add my input

First off, yes, Trueflames were a piece of cake to level back when NPC's just sat on the ground picking their nose. I was easily soloing epic areas at level 10-12 with no issues at all. A bit OP? Yes.

That being said, now that NPC's react to your casting is has become fairly hard to solo things that are even in your level range. From my experience, 90% of the time I would have them running in my darkness, hit me a few times, run out, repeat. Same with archer NPC's (Orc Sharpshooters) They would randomly just start shooting me in my darkness. Yes there are ways around it by casting more darkness's and running about, but that is just a hassle and headache and you're not gonna level for days hunting like that. It should not take me 15 minutes and a 5k marathon to kill a group of 5 spawns. However it is easy to overcome that as well just by finding yourself a AC tank to -guard you. Hooray!

Now when I hear people talking about TF's being OP in PvP? That's when I laugh. Yes we can spam auto quicken max IGMS's but that is about all we have up our sleeve, fighting someone who has Uni gear already cuts off the use of any other spell because our DC is doodoo. Maybe? we can get 1 IGMS"s off before you go invisible, or greater sanc, spell breach our only defense (elemental shield) and KD spam us to death because our disc is also doodoo. You all (UMD Players) literally have all spells at your disposal from wands,scrolls and potions. I could literally go on forever on how a UMD player can poop on a TF in PvP over and over but i'll keep it short.

So in conclusion I strongly believe that TF's are very efficient in PVE and should not be altered in any way when it comes to that. But when it comes to PvP? Yes I believe having the ability to at least drink potions would help greatly.

Edit: The only thing I think is really vital to balance a TF is either Freedom or the use of Clarity, because Fear Aura is the downfall of a TF

[Poolbrain]

Idea: can summon a fire elemental but cant cast spell while the summon is up. (100% spellfailure)