Raw power of Flameborns.

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earthsong309
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Re: Raw power of Flameborns.

Post by earthsong309 » Fri Dec 23, 2016 10:11 pm

Amineh123 wrote:Ah, I haven't red that, you probably edited it before I could.
Well, that is a way, but it seems a bit too difficult to code (no idea, an assumption only)
Seems complicated to keep track of, as well.
I'd stay with the school speciality idea.
I am a bit of an edit whore. Apologies.

I imagine it is way too difficult to keep track of. Maybe something simpler but along those lines.

Or we can just make this a function for weave masters instead of the lockout.

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Re: Raw power of Flameborns.

Post by Amineh123 » Fri Dec 23, 2016 10:13 pm

earthsong309 wrote: Also, you're suggesting giving mages infinite casts of spells from foci. So my evoc sorcerer would be able to spam Bigby's and IGMS to her heart's content with zero drawbacks.
Well, only up to lvl 6, AND you'd be cut out of conjuration spells, because it's an opposed school of magic.
So basically, you're a modified True Flame - less spells to spam though (up to lvl 6 only, ON EPIC LEVEL I REMIND YOU), but can use other spells like normal, default sorcerer.

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Re: Raw power of Flameborns.

Post by earthsong309 » Fri Dec 23, 2016 10:22 pm

Amineh123 wrote:
earthsong309 wrote: Also, you're suggesting giving mages infinite casts of spells from foci. So my evoc sorcerer would be able to spam Bigby's and IGMS to her heart's content with zero drawbacks.
Well, only up to lvl 6, AND you'd be cut out of conjuration spells, because it's an opposed school of magic.
So basically, you're a modified True Flame - less spells to spam though (up to lvl 6 only, ON EPIC LEVEL I REMIND YOU), but can use other spells like normal, default sorcerer.
Okay, you're still talking specifically about True Flames. I was talking about all mages/clerics since the problem of infinicasters makes life difficult and less fun for standard casters.

Still, level 6 evocation gets you Bigby's Forceful Hand and IGMS which are the staples of TF as they are. Just allowing them every other school except conjuration seems OP. TFs with true sight? See invis/ultravision? Stoneskin? Premo? I'm not on board with that.

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Re: Raw power of Flameborns.

Post by Amineh123 » Fri Dec 23, 2016 10:35 pm

I wasn't speaking about True Flame only now, that was just a comparison, because you spoke of evocation school.
Allright, let's remember that Epic Spell focus is available over lvl 20 - that's epic. You won't spam IGMS before that (as it is now available at lvl 12!).
Picking evocation as your speciality also excludes you from conjuration, ergo summon tanks.
Without any other spells, you'll be much weakened version of TF.

To summarize it, IF you pick up evocation speciality, you'll be more offensive than others, but more vulnerable. You won't be a walking destroyer as TF is right now, but you'll be able to be good both in party and solo.
And that's just one variation of my suggestion of casters, there is total of 8 schools.

EDIT:
ALSO, non spammable 7-9 spells AT ALL.

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Re: Raw power of Flameborns.

Post by earthsong309 » Fri Dec 23, 2016 10:38 pm

Amineh123 wrote:I wasn't speaking about True Flame only now, that was just a comparison, because you spoke of evocation school.
Allright, let's remember that Epic Spell focus is available over lvl 20 - that's epic. You won't spam IGMS before that (as it is now available at lvl 12!).
Picking evocation as your speciality also excludes you from conjuration, ergo summon tanks.
Without any other spells, you'll be much weakened version of TF.

To summarize it, IF you pick up evocation speciality, you'll be more offensive than others, but more vulnerable. You won't be a walking destroyer as TF is right now, but you'll be able to be good both in party and solo.
And that's just one variation of my suggestion of casters, there is total of 8 schools.

EDIT:
ALSO, non spammable 7-9 spells AT ALL.
I get what you're saying, but specialization is a wizard thing. Are you saying that clerics and sorcerers who choose to focus in evocation wouldn't be able to cast conjuration spells?

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Re: Raw power of Flameborns.

Post by Amineh123 » Fri Dec 23, 2016 10:40 pm

Well, my whole idea is based on sorcerers actually, so yeah, that's what I meant.
I haven't thought much about wizards and clerics though.

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Re: Raw power of Flameborns.

Post by earthsong309 » Fri Dec 23, 2016 10:50 pm

Amineh123 wrote:Well, my whole idea is based on sorcerers actually, so yeah, that's what I meant.
I haven't thought much about wizards and clerics though.
If implemented for all casters, it would be impossible for Clerics to cast both Implosion and Storm of Vengeance. Druids who specialize in evocation would be unable to cast half their spells. :/

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Re: Raw power of Flameborns.

Post by Amineh123 » Fri Dec 23, 2016 10:53 pm

Well, you still can play as default classes, if you don't pick up any speciality, everything stays as it is.
You trade infini cast for versatility.

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Re: Raw power of Flameborns.

Post by Dredi » Sat Dec 24, 2016 1:48 pm

If I might offer an idea of an alternative.

Having infinite spells must come with a serious drawback as on a PVE scale it cause powercreep and all sorts of other undesirable issues.

And If I might be so bold to suggest, it is not regular casters which need to be empowered in my opinion, it is infini-casters which need to be brought down a little.

Imagine instead Implementing a non-infinite system of some sort where characters can cast infinite spells without resting but may only be able to do a limited number of spells before hitting a soft cap and requiring a small amount of time before they can cast again (Not like Weavers cooldown per spell more like, you just cast 10 maximised spells in a row, take 5 minutes to cool off) or having a powerpoint like system akin to Psion where each spell takes up a number of points, casting the same spell repeatedly in short succession may increase the number of points spent but they can otherwise be used however you like and you regenerate a large number of them with each hourly tick.
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Re: Raw power of Flameborns.

Post by earthsong309 » Tue Dec 27, 2016 7:51 pm

Dredi wrote:If I might offer an idea of an alternative.

Having infinite spells must come with a serious drawback as on a PVE scale it cause powercreep and all sorts of other undesirable issues.

And If I might be so bold to suggest, it is not regular casters which need to be empowered in my opinion, it is infini-casters which need to be brought down a little.

Imagine instead Implementing a non-infinite system of some sort where characters can cast infinite spells without resting but may only be able to do a limited number of spells before hitting a soft cap and requiring a small amount of time before they can cast again (Not like Weavers cooldown per spell more like, you just cast 10 maximised spells in a row, take 5 minutes to cool off) or having a powerpoint like system akin to Psion where each spell takes up a number of points, casting the same spell repeatedly in short succession may increase the number of points spent but they can otherwise be used however you like and you regenerate a large number of them with each hourly tick.
Something akin to this?:

Say, a sorcerer has 30 points to spend before she is 'locked out' of all casting.
Circle 1 spells cost 1 point, circle 9 spells 9 points, etc.
Every IG hour, 3 points are deducted from the total. If the sorcerer goes over 30 points, she is locked out from all casting until her points go below 30 again.

Allows for burst if absolutely necessary, but encourages management of spells without pesky cooldowns. Resting would drain the pool to 0 again.

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Re: Raw power of Flameborns.

Post by Cortex » Tue Dec 27, 2016 8:12 pm

How about not change how the base classes work at their core?
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Re: Raw power of Flameborns.

Post by earthsong309 » Tue Dec 27, 2016 8:25 pm

Cortex wrote:How about not change how the base classes work at their core?
We're just brainstorming, yo.

Relax.

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Re: Raw power of Flameborns.

Post by METAL BAWKSES » Tue Dec 27, 2016 9:05 pm

Gonna throw my dice in with just ripping the bandage off, to be completely honest. I've played on and off for a while and every time I come back the same sorts of problems seem to exist or get exacerbated in some way. I don't know if that's something that would ever happen but I do think it would be the way to go. People can get grandfathered if they truly feel it's something they want to hang onto. Though, I hope it wouldn't be something that would encourage players en masse to suddenly all create a TF/FS/WM.
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Re: Raw power of Flameborns.

Post by Cortex » Tue Dec 27, 2016 10:07 pm

earthsong309 wrote:
Cortex wrote:How about not change how the base classes work at their core?
We're just brainstorming, yo.

Relax.
While I don't like "NWN Purism", it is important to keep in mind that changing a class at its core is not worth the hassle nor the potential risk that comes in making numerous viable builds and means to play obsolete or even impossible.

Trying to settle for a middle ground between vanilla sorcerer and true flame should not start from a heavy reliance on cooldowns or spells per X for it work proper.

Now, making it so a few spells become "infinite on cooldown", but not all, is a better start. For example, greater conjuration makes Grease infinite, and epic conjuration makes Acid Arrow infinite (keep in mind these and feats spells are just arbitrary examples). Something they could earn, rather than just be freely given, something to specialize in.
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Re: Raw power of Flameborns.

Post by Ambigue » Tue Dec 27, 2016 10:21 pm

So. TrueFlame? I don't think it's too bad, honestly. They have a very firmly established play-space and they excel at it. They have to sacrifice quite a bit to get there, too. It's not perfect, but it's at a point where balancing it would be a matter of tweaking, rather than overhauling the class.

Favored Soul isn't bad when taken on its own, but it makes a much, much better dip class than Bard in most cases. A few levels of bard gives you access to a few skills, a few bardic music uses, and a meager assortment of low-level spells to carefully use. Favored soul gets you the same skill access, infinite healing, arcane casting in armor, infinite revives, and infinite buffs AND you can take it in conjunction with lawful classes, unlike Bard Classic from the regular NWN game. That could be considered a problem.

Weavemaster is just a more convenient sorcerer. I know the timer is considered a big deal by some, but I don't see it. Regular sorcerers spend a lot of time not casting spells because they'll run out and they've got an entire dungeon to get through. They make the most of their limited spell selection by going for buffs, summons, and other useful things, along with some big spells they can use to turn the tide of battle. If it was that big a deal, you'd expect to see a lot more pure sorcerers running about.

It seems like the optimal solution really is to make sure spell casters always have something 'magicky' to do without making their entire library of spells infinitely castable.

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Re: Raw power of Flameborns.

Post by Cortex » Tue Dec 27, 2016 10:26 pm

Trueflame is the easiest to change because it's not horribly broken as the other paths.

The problem of going Favored Soul as a dip class means you're taking that dip at level 1-3, I can only think of that working for sorcerer or wizard, which would make your leveling actually really annoying since you'd always be 3 levels behind.

The reason people don't play sorcerers is likely because they don't want to or don't know better. It's an amazing and powerful class that can stomp in PvP, and still be an asset in PvE with summons or buffs, they're not as limited as people make them out to be.

If you want casters to have something to do, I think you're looking at warlock. His life is pressing [daze/flare hotkey] for days every round. Making casters too alike is not something healthy for the server or variety.
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Re: Raw power of Flameborns.

Post by earthsong309 » Tue Dec 27, 2016 10:38 pm

Cortex wrote:Trueflame is the easiest to change because it's not horribly broken as the other paths.

The problem of going Favored Soul as a dip class means you're taking that dip at level 1-3, I can only think of that working for sorcerer or wizard, which would make your leveling actually really annoying since you'd always be 3 levels behind.

The reason people don't play sorcerers is likely because they don't want to or don't know better. It's an amazing and powerful class that can stomp in PvP, and still be an asset in PvE with summons or buffs, they're not as limited as people make them out to be.

If you want casters to have something to do, I think you're looking at warlock. His life is pressing [daze/flare hotkey] for days every round. Making casters too alike is not something healthy for the server or variety.
In no way are sorcerers limited, especially those who focus in conjuration/evocation. I have a build in mind for a sorceress/paladin that manages to squeeze in three epic foci (conj, abjuration and evocation) and hellball/gruin. I'm certainly not saying vanilla sorcerers need a buff.

But the problem remains that the addition of infinicasters has made high-level play more difficult/unfun for Vancian casters. Saves, resistances and hit points were buffed across the board to counter infinicasters, and it's greatly dampened the effectiveness of Vancian casters, particularly those who focus in DC-heavy schools like enchantment and necromancy.

Add in the fact that a good chunk of high-level NPCs are mind-immune or at the very least have insanely high saves, and being an epic-level Vancian caster starts to feel like a chore, and forces every single build to specialize in evocation for the epic evo combo, or at the very least, necessitates that every wizard slot 12-24 IGMS or else face the very real possibility of being utterly useless in a group aside from buffs.

I want to see more sorcerers who rebuke evocation. I want to see more diviners and enchanters. I want to see more epic-level mages who take down their enemies with charms and illusions. I haven't played epics since a few years ago, but even then it was painfully evident that the only boon to being an epic enchanter was better/cheaper enchantments on gear.

So, the problem isn't infinicasters in an of themselves; it's the unforseen power creep that has been felt since their introduction. I personally feel that infinicasters (barring perhaps warlocks, but that's another thread...) have minimized the DnD feel of Arelith and turned it into an endless grind fest akin to a typical MMO. I realize my opinion is just that, my opinion; but I'm not alone in feeling this way.

As for warlocks, beh. Insanely powerful in both PvE and PvP if played right, but so... utterly boring. I ditched mine after level 14. But who knows! Maybe other people love casting flare endlessly while screaming internally over NWN's utterly deplorable pathfinding system. :D

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Re: Raw power of Flameborns.

Post by Cortex » Tue Dec 27, 2016 10:43 pm

Unused focuses is an issue with the boons they grant, if their value was equal to evocation or conjuration, they'd see more use.
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Re: Raw power of Flameborns.

Post by Xantor_Stromgate » Thu Jan 05, 2017 6:10 am

vaclavc wrote: My main gripe is that TFers, warlocks and especially Weavemasters totally kill the D&D feel of the server and bring it closer to MMO world.
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Re: Raw power of Flameborns.

Post by earthsong309 » Sat Jan 07, 2017 6:21 am

Xantor_Stromgate wrote:
vaclavc wrote: My main gripe is that TFers, warlocks and especially Weavemasters totally kill the D&D feel of the server and bring it closer to MMO world.
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Warlocks are pretty close to how they are in PnP, with infinite "invocations" and blasts. Warlocks fill the infinicaster niche properly.

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Re: Raw power of Flameborns.

Post by Amineh123 » Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:50 am

It's been about a year since last post. I've played a lot with my TF and can make a statement if anyone is interested in reading it.
True Flame is an awesome class, much harder to play as other classes - which in my opinion is kind of a fun actually.
They needed desperately buff with ability to ressurect others - that was made which is just brilliant.
They cannot be god saved, which is a huge debuff.

All in all, I started with the idea of buffing it too much, I can see that now.
Nevertheless I think it needs a few adjustments in it's favor, honestly.

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Re: Raw power of Flameborns.

Post by One Two Three Five » Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:47 pm

I'm still of the opinion that they should either get full potion use like kensai, or be able to select a second spell school at some point.
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Re: Raw power of Flameborns.

Post by Nitro » Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:51 pm

I don't think they need any buff honestly. They're a pain to solo, but in a party or even just with 1 friend to -guard them they can turn almost all the PvE content in the module to a cakewalk until late epics, at which point they still contribute with one of the stronger damage outputs of all classes.

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Re: Raw power of Flameborns.

Post by CragOrion » Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:01 pm

Trueflamers aren't just a pain to solo, they're EXTREMELY painful to solo. So many things see through the darkness, and in groups, because of the graphics glitch you get from darkness on most laptops, people tend to hate darkness, which really limits how you can contribute unless you have a good tank to -guard you.

I'd be really hardpressed to play another one.

If they could get access to potions? That would help a lot IMO

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Re: Raw power of Flameborns.

Post by Jack Oat » Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:00 pm

literally anything having to do with trueflame
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