Raw power of Flameborns.

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Amineh123
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Raw power of Flameborns.

Post by Amineh123 » Tue Dec 13, 2016 12:44 pm

I was wondering if anyone actually discussed about this before.
As Flameborns are born with specific kind of power, which is destructive etc.
Shouldn't a flameborn be able not only manifest, but to also summon this kind of raw power?
Such as elementals?
From the name itself: Flameborn, Path of the True Flame - maybe at least fire elementals?
What do you guys think? It seems logical. And quite frankly, that's what every flameborn player lacks.

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Lorkas
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Re: Raw power of Flameborns.

Post by Lorkas » Tue Dec 13, 2016 12:56 pm

This would imbalance them massively. The whole point of a true flame is tons of offensive power, with very limited defensive power. Give a character like that a pocket tank to serve as their defense and you've taken away the class's main drawback.

Amineh123
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Re: Raw power of Flameborns.

Post by Amineh123 » Tue Dec 13, 2016 1:08 pm

A flying ball of fire is one, creating a creature made from magical power is a lot harder, true.
But it just seems to me it's something a mage should be ABLE to do, as he can obviously summon a familiar.
What if it's possible for experienced Flameborns, I mean, at least two digit level, better with caster level obviously, but with, let's say 60 seconds cooldown? It requires some time to focus.
Or, if it's possible, no idea - make the casting of it itself a long procedure? For example to cast it, the character is forced to play a 20 second animation of casting.

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Re: Raw power of Flameborns.

Post by Nitro » Tue Dec 13, 2016 1:30 pm

True flame are all about evocation, not fire necessarily. The name 'true flame' is just a very fitting moniker, and flameborn one made up by players. And no matter how you put it, giving true flames access to a summoned minion would make the class massively overpowered, patching up their big weakness of being largely unable to solo.

Honestly, I think it'd be more thematic and fitting to remove the familiars from them, but also remove the spell component cost for their high level evocation spells.

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Re: Raw power of Flameborns.

Post by Amineh123 » Tue Dec 13, 2016 1:41 pm

You can already pick f.e. a Silent Spell feat and you can cast any spell below 9th circle without spell components.
I obviously wanted to discuss summons to make TF playable solo - I don't want it overpowered though, that ruins all the fun. But at the same time, being IRL unable to play a lot, soloing is most of my gaming here. Having to pick another class, or path that is not as enjoyable is just as much fun-killer.
I mean, TF is already basically a variation of negative side of kensai.

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Mr_Rieper
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Re: Raw power of Flameborns.

Post by Mr_Rieper » Tue Dec 13, 2016 1:44 pm

Why do people keep calling them Flameborns?

We have a Flameborn. Who ironically does not play a True Flame.

On topic, big no on the summon idea. Watching True Flamers with their endless IGMS spam hurts my soul, it's incredibly powerful in both PvE and PvP (And arguably, is really discouraging to wizards and sorcerers who try to group with them and still try to be useful in fights). Giving them a summon to help them solo without some sort of nerf to their extreme damage capabilities would be a huge mistake. True Flamers do not need to be buffed. At all. They have INFINITE damage spells. As in, unless they are hit by some sort of crowd control, they can keep casting the same damage spell OVER and OVER and OVER again. Endlessly. That is extremely potent.

If you're struggling to solo with a True Flame, do not pick the path. It's not intended for inexperienced players, and is the equivalent to taking a Mark of Destiny in my opinion. It gives a benefit, but also has a consequence. If you struggle to handle the consequence, then consider playing a normal sorcerer. It's not intended to be balanced, it's an infinite caster for cripe's sake.

If you're truly dedicated to enjoying yourself with the True Flame path, then pick up some tips from the more experienced players here and stick with it, if that's your thing. But giving them a summon would basically make them warlocks with less DR and more powerful arcane spells.
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Re: Raw power of Flameborns.

Post by Nitro » Tue Dec 13, 2016 1:50 pm

Except that the TF has a very clear role that it's the best at, which is consistent raw damage output and disables, it's hard to even get near the damage output that a high level TF can do with two maximized auto-quickened IGMS each round for most classes, and on top of that they have all the great green hands line of spells, bewildering cloud, darkness and a slew of elemental damage to deal with situationally immune foes.

Yes, not being able to solo well kind of sucks, but given how well the class performs as a glass cannon in parties you would pretty much have to nerf it if you added solo-ability onto the class as well in the form of summons.

That said, I would strongly recommend Weave master if you enjoy being able to solo well. You won't be able to spam as many offensive spells as the TF, but you'll have full access to summons, buffs, debuffs etc.

Also
You can already pick f.e. a Silent Spell feat and you can cast any spell below 9th circle without spell components.
Are you sure about this? I seem to strongly remember that casting a silent finger of death still ate spell components last I tried.

EDIT: Ninja'd by Rieper.

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Re: Raw power of Flameborns.

Post by Amineh123 » Tue Dec 13, 2016 2:04 pm

IIRC all metamagic does not require components, and finger of death is not an evocation spell.
I get the idea that summons are overpowered.
Are there any TF players here though to throw some perspective? I fell like TF has not a advantage/disadvantage, it's more like advantage/2xdisadvantage.
They are a massive DPS and but can't use other schools of magic.
AND not a single item everyone can use [except kensai].

vaclavc
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Re: Raw power of Flameborns.

Post by vaclavc » Tue Dec 13, 2016 2:43 pm

I can tell you that TFers are able to solo pretty well, mostly spamming darkness and MM/ILMS/IGMS with occasional Bigbys, although they cannot solo every area on the server and they shine the most in parties. Experienced players can use them to some effect in PVP, too.
They are definitely not the strongest of classes, but I suggest you get some experience with them before you make your judgement.
My main gripe is that TFers, warlocks and especially Weavemasters totally kill the D&D feel of the server and bring it closer to MMO world.
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Kalimere
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Re: Raw power of Flameborns.

Post by Kalimere » Tue Dec 13, 2016 2:56 pm

vaclavc wrote:My main gripe is that TFers, warlocks and especially Weavemasters totally kill the D&D feel of the server and bring it closer to MMO world.
This.

Not to say its totally bad. I appreciate the work the Dev's did to create interesting new classes to spice things up, but you do have to admit that having so many infinite casting special classes does change the server vibe.
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Amineh123
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Re: Raw power of Flameborns.

Post by Amineh123 » Tue Dec 13, 2016 3:02 pm

For me, if we go this off-topic way, it's more immerse breaking when I see all classes hasted, invisible or in some other way using magical artifacts that's not really supposed to be available to them.
Oh yeah - except TF that's born with actual magic abillities, yet unable to use listed above.

It's sarcasm obviously. I'd like some TF players to give their thought's of the subject as well, before I'm convinced it's just me that sees an issue here.

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ObsceneOoze
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Re: Raw power of Flameborns.

Post by ObsceneOoze » Tue Dec 13, 2016 3:09 pm

TF is pretty.. dang overpowered I feel.. Everytime i've been with a TF they pretty much killed most things they wanted to before I could even touch them- Unless they held back. Additionally, it is immensely good for farming, I know one particular UD area where a TF with firebrand can pretty much farm xp for hours non-stop, -GOOD- xp to higher levels, on top of fantastic gold farming, AND resources for days there. If you just spit out empowered/maximized firebrands there it just gets hilariously easy.. As everything there from what I've seen couldn't make the save to save their life.

TF'ers are pretty strong, I really like them as they are, as having no defensive spells or summons is indeed a massive drawback which leaves you vulnerable, but it's a worthy sacrifice for being able to spit out endless high damage.. Not to mention darkness pretty much easy-modes everything, even though you can't cast ultravision, it's why you should find someone who can to bring along for the ride. If your hellbent on constantly soloing I will just say that's unfortunate... And if you ever really needed someone to join up with you for farming so you'd have some support to assist your weaknesses, then I would be glad to roll a character or take an existing character to help you.

All in all, every class has it's weakness, a strong weakness which makes them able to be defeated, You can't just remove the weakness of one class and not do so for all the others, so sometimes you just have to tough it out I'm afraid.
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ObsceneOoze
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Re: Raw power of Flameborns.

Post by ObsceneOoze » Tue Dec 13, 2016 3:11 pm

I do sympathize however, my own character has some very strong weaknesses I really wish I didn't have.. But hey some input from some TF players would indeed be very good
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Liareth
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Re: Raw power of Flameborns.

Post by Liareth » Tue Dec 13, 2016 3:16 pm

Kalimere wrote:
vaclavc wrote:My main gripe is that TFers, warlocks and especially Weavemasters totally kill the D&D feel of the server and bring it closer to MMO world.
This.

Not to say its totally bad. I appreciate the work the Dev's did to create interesting new classes to spice things up, but you do have to admit that having so many infinite casting special classes does change the server vibe.
Unless something has drastically changed in the last month, pretty much the entire development team agrees with both of you. The inclusion of these infinite casting classes is an artifact inherited from the old administration team. Personally, I don't think infinite casting has any place at all in the setting. Unfortunately, it's much more difficult to correct (remove) mistakes than it is to make them.
Amineh123 wrote:Oh yeah - except TF that's born with actual magic abillities, yet unable to use listed above..
From a thematic perspective, True Flamers are born with exactly what you see on the tin. Nothing more, nothing less. That's the design of the class.

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Re: Raw power of Flameborns.

Post by StompyKobold » Tue Dec 13, 2016 4:25 pm

I play a TF, and it has been quite the roller coaster of a character. I can solo certain areas but incredible slowly, no where near the speed of a WM, or battlecleric, who at half my level could walk through with little to no trouble. Personally I don't like to solo, even in areas where I can one shot most spawns. The struggle to lvl a TF is real, but the reward once you get to the place you can spam MAxed IGMS is crazy. To make the experience more enjoyable for people I'm with I do have to hold back sometimes and I think that says something. I've been on the other side, where I wasn't able to contribute to a hunt and spent my time just walking behind picking up gold, it was boring and not at all fun. People with you are not going to have fun if all you do is blow up everything you see. But then, there are areas where you, as a class, can do almost nothing. Factory, lower levels of the Duergar fortress, I don't want to get into too much detail, but it is a incredible powerful, but narrow class to say the least.
I play this game because I really enjoy the interaction you get with other players, and that the server has always been more geared towards encouraging grouping up. I think making it harder to solo is something that can be a good thing, and if you want to have a character to solo with you really need to find a class that is suited to that *cough cough, cleric/warlock*

Anyways, I am glad this is being brought up and in the end I will support whatever decision the Devs went with as long as it was done with the intention to keep this server not only fun, but interactive. Maybe it would be possible to do a redesign, but that would be a completely different subject.

Another point is that infi caster, either weave or TF style, is super fun. The ability to spam out Max IGMS is cool, and the feeling of power is tangible. I have also played a pure Wiz before, and the ability to get all the spell focus and use the epic abilities is also super fun. You really can't compare the two though. They are completely different and your choice between should be because of their differences.

TLDR: Summons would be way too OP with a TF

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Re: Raw power of Flameborns.

Post by FullMetalTuna » Tue Dec 13, 2016 8:09 pm

Lorkas wrote:This would imbalance them massively. The whole point of a true flame is tons of offensive power, with very limited defensive power. Give a character like that a pocket tank to serve as their defense and you've taken away the class's main drawback.
After playing a flameborn to level 25, I can say that I think they are balanced as they are - to give them a summons really would over power them. As it is, they can summon that little dagger, that, when used correctly, can really be an asset.

On top of that, flameborns can also have golems. Something to think about.
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Amineh123
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Re: Raw power of Flameborns.

Post by Amineh123 » Tue Dec 13, 2016 9:15 pm

On top of that, flameborns can also have golems. Something to think about.
Wait. What?

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Cortex
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Re: Raw power of Flameborns.

Post by Cortex » Tue Dec 13, 2016 9:56 pm

Image

A balance thread about trueflame that doesn't involve its deletion.
:)

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Maphias
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Re: Raw power of Flameborns.

Post by Maphias » Tue Dec 13, 2016 10:07 pm

delete trueflame pls

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gilescorey
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Re: Raw power of Flameborns.

Post by gilescorey » Tue Dec 13, 2016 11:50 pm




edit
Amineh123 wrote:
On top of that, flameborns can also have golems. Something to think about.
Wait. What?
Anyone can control a golem, so long as they have a control stone and a transmuter to make the golem for them.
Last edited by gilescorey on Wed Dec 14, 2016 12:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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The GrumpyCat
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Re: Raw power of Flameborns.

Post by The GrumpyCat » Wed Dec 14, 2016 12:13 am

People. Please keep this on track and civil.
This too shall pass.

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Re: Raw power of Flameborns.

Post by Broken Hopes Shattered Dreams » Wed Dec 14, 2016 1:11 am

I always loved having my Trueflame bud in party. Stack him with my weavemaster bud and it was always loads of laughs. Take them to heavy faezress impacted area's for lulz. Depending on your PC make it a fun competition who could get the most kills. Makes for fun banter back and forth. It's in there, it is what it is, make the most fun out of it you can and move forward.

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Re: Raw power of Flameborns.

Post by Mithradates » Wed Dec 14, 2016 4:17 am

Everyone calling for TF's deletion just needs to stop, your immersion bubble is only broken because of false notions, and your archaic views will only drive away everyone that loves the OPTIONS available to them. Multiple play styles, take your Snuggle a Bugbear pick. That is what makes Arelith amazing. Don't make calls for your play style to be the one that dominates the server, that everyone must subscribe to. :evil: :evil: :evil:

Also, infini casting is just a fact of modern gaming. You're identifying the wrong 'artifact'.

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Cortex
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Re: Raw power of Flameborns.

Post by Cortex » Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:45 am

Overreaction much?

Image
:)

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Peppermint
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Re: Raw power of Flameborns.

Post by Peppermint » Wed Dec 14, 2016 6:00 am

TF is a poorly designed class.

Concur with those that say that elementals won't fit them (from a mechanical thematic), though they really do need an overhaul if they're to fit in with Arelith's environment.

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