Assassin Stuff

[Yorick Shadowfeather]

Alright. This is going to be a long one. A full, in depth look at pretty much all things assassin. If it gets on your nerves, I'm sorry.

I've talked about Assassins before, And I'm still of the same opinion. I've thought over every single advantage and disadvantage. I've also built an array of Assassin builds for some time now, And while each may not be absolutely amazing, I have at least a decent idea of what I'm doing. And, now that I've leveled an actual Assassin to late epics, I'll state my opinion again, and make a few suggestions.

TL;DR: DC based Assassins suck, really bad. Just use the suggestions link at the bottom.

First- The Pro's and Con's of Assassin. (Feel free to skip)
Pro's

Offensive
Death attack: d6 damage each odd level(1,3,5,7 etc), and allows a paralyze long enough to kill pretty much anyone.
Assassin guild: Allows the Assassin to attack players on a contract list without warning or rp beforehand, and collect a bounty of gold. This being their greatest ability, And allowing them to actually be assassins.
Use Poison: Use poisons on weapons without needing to make a Dex check. I'm still not sure how this dc works, So I can't say how great it is exactly. Either way- Poison sticks to weapons and prock any time they hit, So they can weaken their opponent with little effort.

Defensive
Poison saves: +1 fort saves vs poison, per each odd level. Good for those pesky UD mushrooms.
Uncanny dodge: Retain dexterity and dodge ac while flatfooted, and +1 save vs traps per odd lvl. If you're dex based and really don't want rogue (for whatever reason) then This is absolutely needed. Great plus for assassins for sure.

Utility
Use Magic Device: As skill. I can't remember which other prestige class(s) allowed UMD, But Sin gets some props here for sure, because it's (or is one of) the only PrC class that offers UMD. Fantastic for PvE, PvP, or just that little extra buffing/utility.
Spells: Assassins get feat castings of four spells, each a single time per day. (Ghostly Visage, Darkness, Invisibility, and Improved invisibility) gained at levels 3,5,7,9- respectively. With a lot of levels the 50% conceal from imp invs is really long lasting. Also, Being able to cast these spells from invs is also sweet.

Con's

Death Attack: While a great benefit, It's quite limited in it's abilities, and only usable under specific circumstances. You have to actually be able to hit your attacks, And it requires many levels (15+) to have an acceptable dc (39+). In addition, There are many mobs/builds automatically immune, either to sneak attacks, paralysis, Or have insane fortitude saves.
--[Target must be out of combat. They cannot be immune to sneak/paralysis. They must be alone, in case you fail. You must be able to hit your target. The target must fail a fort save. Their prayer to their deity must fail, so they are not freed from the stun. Then you need time to kill them before help can arrive.]--
That's a hilariously long list of 'ifs'. Ifs that do not exist for any 'assassin' that uses a completely different method. (So naturally all of them.)

Save gear. With Con+uni save gear (which is usable for most people) You get +15 fort. And putting that on top of a base wm's fort (28 or so) you end with 43. Makes the 'decent' 39 dc look pretty silly. I met one person who was level 22, And did not go full on fort, but had 36 fort un-buffed, Roughly 45 buffed. That requires an assassin to have a higher dc by at least 5, For fair chance. 45 DC requires 20 levels, And 15 intelligence modifier. That's as much intelligence as a full int Wizard.

Assassin's Guild: Contracts basically don't exsist. :/ When they do- The reward is never worth it, Because it's on a character the assassin could never hope to kill, except by means of either epic traps, Or going something completely different with 5 Sin levels.

Use Poison: It is it's own downfall. The feat is useful, while leaving much to be desired, If only because you will never poison yourself, and you get an extra chance to weaken your opponent. "The time it takes to use, vs the time it lasts, vs how long you need it." But if it fails due to high fort or immunity to poisons, then you'll feel quite silly, and wasted time. And If it succeeds, There's a good chance you didn't even need it; That being it's downfall. As a side note... With the amount and ease of getting antidotes, A person who actually is weak to poison gets a 'get out free' card. And if they don't have any, Then they just chug a lesser restoration potion, Which are a good 10x as common.

RpR: People often forget that you need an RpR bonus to play Assassins. They are also forced to be Evil aligned.

Build

In an assassin build, You have two... 'viable' choices. You can dip 5-ish for the guild, Or you can go deep with 11-20. When you dip, The character suffers each con above, With only the bonus of 3d6sneaks, the 5% chance of enemies rolling 1 on a DA save, uncanny dodge if you're a dexer, and being able to gank certain targets.(This being the main advantage) Compared to 5 rogue; Same sneaks, evasion, uncanny dodge for dexers, A bonus language, ability to disable traps with 35dc+, and 20 extra skillpoints. Going all in Assassin leaves you with 11-13 will saves, AT LEVEL 30. Fort saves of roughly 15-19. Ref saves at a good 30-35ish(worse when int based, and still no evasion ). No defensive capabilities without relying on other classes, And the inability to guarantee your death attacks removes a huge amount of offensive ability as well, effectively making you a crappy version of rogue. Low level Assassin cannot be buffed due to dipping, But characters with high levels of assassin are in need of aid. Consider: Fighters get the fighter bonuses for going deep into the class. Pale masters get epic spells. Monks get immunity to mind spells, +SR. Every casting class ever is rewarded for going deep into their classes. Every class has their awesome end game things, And assassin's just falls short of what it needs to be.

I had a friend tell me; "Well, Assassin is a Niche build." And I agree that it is. But that statement raised a question... Can they actually fill the role they've been given? Or... does someone do it better? And I mean way/always better. Like going full 25 Wiz-5 Sin? 25 Cleric-5 Sin? 20/18 Fighter-5/7 Wm-5 Sin? What about.... A 20 rogue 5 SD 5 Sin? I'm sorry, But that last build sounds a heck of a lot more assassin-like than practically any build with 5 Sin levels. Though we know that the 25 Wiz/cleric and the WM build would certainly, definitely, do better. And there's just something a little wrong with that. The stereotype of assassins is non-exsistant. They are all usually something completely different on arelith, with 5 or so Sin levels tacked on. They would rather go with a str based WM, or a caster; Something that is generally not what assassins are. Sure- there can be a few. But why should anyone trade op casting abilities for an unreliable gimmick? It's not even a good gimmick. Not anywhere near as satisfying/frightening as a palladin critsmiting someone for 500.

Examples
Monks: Monks get stuns, and an instant kill. They can stack their stuns though, and spam Missle Storm scrolls-basically long enough to kill you. If you go full dc based, Then you will get roughly 40-50. (40 without improved stunning fist feats,48-50+ with them) They also move incredibly fast, Get amazing saves, Are completely immune to poisons (silly Assassin Poison saves), immune to mind effecting spells, Have SR, Evasion + Imp Evasion, a plethura of free feats... etc. So.. 25 Monk 5 Sin is naturally far superior to any 20 Sin build, (even if it's still kinda bad) While remaining DC based.

Blackguards: Not that they are overpowered, But they still beat assassins in damage, ac, ab, spell access - including divine shield/might, summons, and have much better saves. Needs less levels than assassin does for more goodies. So any build with 4 BG Gets most of what assassins get. Tack on that little bit of assassin and you've got a pretty cool anti-hero. Do this same thing for WM.

DC Casters: Going to generalize this one... Each caster has ways to reach pretty high spell dc's, with some capable of instant death effects. Like Wail, Wierd, or Implosion. Did I mention those instantly kill people? People is plural there- like.. more than one at a time. Other spells with insane damage output, Crowd control, Buffs; Whatever spell is best for the occasion. They can even paralyze targets from a distance far greater than the ranged sneak attack distance. So.... Any caster class with 5 Sin. Done. Better than any 20 Sin build. DC based is once again roughly 40. (10 + Spell level +foci + casting modifier) And that's for basically all their spells of schools chosen; including some epic spells.

The point here being, Because their greatest benefit is Ganking (which benefits everyone) it doesn't matter how many levels of assassin they have... You can't really make an assassin build worse than a 20 sin without trying, or are unfamiliar with builds. Most of the time- People are better off calling their class an assassin rather than actually taking the class.

Now for my actual opinion. Assassins will see no fixing at all, Due to the Guild being a thing. None. Seeing a class that can straight attack you, and then seeing them get buffed would be a /terrible/ thing. But, The Guild's existence has done nothing but encourage people to cheese it. Stacking Epic traps. Using mage powers to communicate and insta-contract-kill. Shamelessly time-stop ganking as a WM assassin- And of course Death attack, in few situations. I've never been a target before, but I know for fact that none of these are fun to 'fight' against. Many are impossible. You just stand there, and then you're suddenly dead.

I will say however, That the Ganking thing is way over-rated. They can't do it to just anyone. People say it like they can; But they will have basically no impact on anyone, and if they do, It's a single death, per contract (so 1 per ig year). Many players are cool enough to even raise and insta-port out. Either way, You have to have a contract placed on you, Not pay it off for long enough for an epic assassin to come online (which is going to be a while), for them to find you, then try to kill you. Success being a different matter. Even if they cheese you, that's not really much of a benefit- is it? There is a lot that has to go wrong there, much of it within the target's control. As for getting contracts placed on you, Those are just the natural consequences of making enemies. Be grateful, most people will try to kill you themselves. And in the rare case that there is a super power-built character, they should welcome the challenge.

Outside the ganking privlages, DC Assassins are so pitiful... They may get the same late game sneak damage that Rogues get, But their dc is almost never high enough to get to insane mob saves, and if it is, they have too little ab to actually hit them reliably. In normal pvp, they are a plain joke (even though i think they should be), No matter how high their dc is. As far as UMD goes, It's not only available to everyone else, it's OPENLY available to everyone else. So it's not an advantage at all. They are squishy (squishier than even mages due to mages always taking a ton of con), get destroyed by even the lowest dc spells, terrible damage without sneak attacks, Get kd'd easily- at which point the fight is instantly over (with 20 levels especially), Pathetic ac/ab even when compared to rogue-like classes- much less full bab ones, and its all for one thing: dc 39+ DA. Which can only effectively be used on contracts, which is a (near) dead system. Using it on mobs ends up taking more time than it saves.

Basically.. If you don't think DC assassin sucks... You are wrong. I Don't mean that in an elitist way. Nor am I trying to slander your views/opinions, hurt your feelings, etc. I'm stating the truth. On arelith, the absolute cap on a DA dc is 48, without 5% characters. (maxed Int, all int points and epic int feats, +2 gift, and subrace int) The downsides being horrendous of course (try 34 ab, 23 ac, and no saves)... And while that is intimidating to most people... Someone with 45 fort saves is going to laugh at it. And the PM's. And that guy that used a freedom wand just a second ago. And the guy with 55 ac. (So pretty much everyone) They have literally nothing to fear at all from that character; a character who has invested their entire life, career, and practice into the ability, whom fails automatically due to a generic power-build. It has a very particular way of play, which just doesn't currently fit in Arelith.

I would rather Assassins become more viable, than be able to run up and gank someone. The guild doesn't need to be removed; But I think removing the no rp killing is for the best of assassins... Because as it stands, It's preventing a bad class from getting helped. When players are given the ability to just build a completely different build and then cheese it with a ganking ability, it's too worrisome to ignore. Removing it opens up all the choices and fixing that Assassins have needed for a long time. Once it's gone, Assassins once again have -quite literally- nothing. Which is a great place to start. And if not, Then there needs to be a reason to actually be a stereotypical assassin character, So that there is not just a bunch of brutes and spell-slingers in the wrong faction.

I have to keep going back and asking myself if DC Assassins are actually dangerous. And they are, to specific people. To some people, they are a joke. Really; A DC based assassin is far less threatening than any build focused entirely on something else. So they are dangerous... But they are less dangerous than almost any other variation. Therein lies the problem. Give them something they need- So players are given a reason to play them. Because the resources spent, the effort exerted versus the result from each is an unfair trade on all points.

Thanks for reading! Sorry for ranting. X.X The whole shebang.
Suggestions
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=9146

Other opinions welcome!

[Trunx]

Assassin's Guild: Contracts basically don't exsist. :/ When they do- The reward is never worth it, Because it's on a character the assassin could never hope to kill, except by means of either epic traps, Or going something completely different with 5 Sin levels.

The solution to this is RP and being proactive. Don't just wait for random contracts to pop up, go and approach people that might need the services of an assassin. Never thought there was a lack of contracts myself.

[Cerk Evermoore]

I think the DC check on poisons, and even the cooking crafting poisons should probably get looked at. Poisons have a lot of potential in game but I don't really see it in use that much atm besides tricking someone to drink some water go get minus 5 some stat.

[DrVindaloo]

I just hate the ganking concept myself. It adds very very little RP, and is tremendously unfun for you. Not to mention it makes you instantly buy off all contracts. I'd scrap it and find a different way to implement the guild before Assassins get touched.

[Cerk Evermoore]

To add onto my original point, more poisons should be able to be put on your weapons with higher DCs and possibly effects from paralyze to blind / deaf.

Or at least be able to poison something like beer or potions, that way you can pretend you care about the person and your giving them a potion, or tricking the dwarf into drinking a beer. It is certainly very sketchy when someone hands you a waterbottle and is like "Hey, I know you have ten of these in your inv, but please drink this specific one for no reason in paticular."

[dirza]

High DC on poisons can be a trap, také into account that poison gets applied each time you strike someone and each time that person can roll 1 even when high save.

But ability to poison food/drinks is awsome and could have really high DC (even against death) as it is responsibility of everyone to ensure they dont eat poisoned stuff

[Kimino]

Few notes.
One. You don't understand what ganking is. Ganking is shorthand for Gang-killing. It means tricking someone into a spot where you and a few of your buddies can attack them at the same time. In a gang. It doesn't mean a surprise stealth kill without rp. It always bothers me that people use this term wrong and I just needed to get it out of the way.

Next. My 90 damage per hit 10 attack per round 40 dc assassin will argue with you that DC-based assassins can be strong as hell. I've yet to encounter anyone who can consistently make that save. The ISSUE with it is that *prays* can break the paralysis. However, once someone *prays*, they've used up their pray for the fight while you, the assassin, have not. This gives you a large advantage. I still have the ability to lay out a bunch of epic traps before the fight starts for incase things don't go my way. You start losing health faster than your opponent? Run into the middle of an epic electric trap field. You'll be fine.

I've never used any of the poisons, only have 1 on 1 of my characters and just.. Don't feel the motivation to bother testing it. Can't comment for their usefulness either way.

The spells are nice I guess. I always use wands instead. Meh.

Yep. You need a whooooole bunch of assassin levels for a good dc. And it's next to useless for most of the GRIND. But assassin as a class is not a GRIND class it's.. An assassin. However, putting all your eggs in one basket on ANY character is bad. You want to have damage and some ab on your assassin, then suddenly you're only slightly less useful to other people on the grind.

Save gear. Yup, you're correct. I've still never had trouble paralyzing anyone, really. I don't think people bother gearing these days. Sure-That's dependent on other people-But the meta is still part of the game.

I'm not wrong about DC assassins not sucking. I would say you're just not a competent builder. Not saying that as an elitist, I just know what I've experienced. I do agree that the assassins guild contracts are stupid and should be removed-But this has nothing to do with me wanting the class buffed. I just don't feel that the guild adds anything to the server. People use it for 3 things. 1: They actually ICly feel a hit needs to be put on somebody. This is the LEAST common reason (Which is the whole issue.) 2: Their friend wants to kill someone without having to rp, so they get them to put a hit on. (Not TOO common, I guess. But I've seen it happen a few times already.) 3: They're OOCly salty about something/someone and want to piss them off. Happens all the damn time.
Yes. Yes it does.

I have to keep going back and asking myself if DC Assassins are actually dangerous. And they are, to specific people. To some people, they are a joke. Really; A DC based assassin is far less threatening than any build focused entirely on something else.

This is essentially the crux of it. And this is not a 'problem'. Assassins exist to assassinate. Not to do other stuff.

If you think assassins are bad you are not using all their tools, frankly.

[Shadowy Reality]

Kimino, you come out extremely agressive in your post and you yourself missed a few points.

The OP isn't saying you can't get high DCs, he's saying that for such, you need to sacrifice a lot and even then it's not that great.

It's not about being a competent builder, there's no secret to getting a high DC and several procs. You stack those Assassin levels , get a highish Int and several attacks per flurry (TWF will do, so will rapid shot coupled with good BAB or monk).

There's several issues with that. You have a lower AB because you invested in Int, you have a lower HP pool, because again, you invested in Int. And even then, resisting your insane DC is as easy as using a Freedom wand. That's the issue here, you invest levels, attributes, gear and a simple wand defeats your core class mechanic. So does Mind Blank if I recall correctly, so does monk mind immunity, duergar, or a high level palemaster.

You argue that epic traps do the trick. Yes they do, but it is in no way related to Assassins, plenty of other classes can do the same.

My only irk with the Assassin class is how easy is to be immune to the paralysis effect itself, nothing else. However, this does not make Assassins weak. If you argue Assassins are weak then you need only look at Rogues, they almost go hand in hand. Assassins get: Death Attack, the Guild and some Spells. Rogues just some more skills, that's about it.

[gilescorey]

My only irk with the Assassin class is how easy is to be immune to the paralysis effect itself, nothing else. However, this does not make Assassins weak. If you argue Assassins are weak then you need only look at Rogues, they almost go hand in hand. Assassins get: Death Attack, the Guild and some Spells. Rogues just some more skills, that's about it.

Rogue also gets access to epic dodge, which by itself is a massive advantage over assassin.

[Shadowy Reality]

My only irk with the Assassin class is how easy is to be immune to the paralysis effect itself, nothing else. However, this does not make Assassins weak. If you argue Assassins are weak then you need only look at Rogues, they almost go hand in hand. Assassins get: Death Attack, the Guild and some Spells. Rogues just some more skills, that's about it.

Rogue also gets access to epic dodge, which by itself is a massive advantage over assassin.

Whops, totally forgot about that one! Guess it balances out quite nicely then.

[FoxyPigeon]

I will agree, just like certain other invested classes, actual assassins really are sad.

While I like the guild and contracts, I will say I think the "No RP before pvp" rule, which is the only "benefit" assassins get, is completely stupid and out of place on Arelith. In my opinion, if I wanna walk up and pvp someone for whatever reason, it's way easier to do that with RP, if I'm just some op cookie cutter cheese build, that isn't even an assassin. I'm sure this has happened to plenty of people too. "Get off my turf, I'm farming here. Oh- not leaving?" *WoF, Timestop, Gank.* Or even the: *Walk up, insult for pvp, gank.* Etc, etc.

I think it would be better to entirely throw that rule away and instead actually give assassins a reason to invest in the class. Not only to make them less horrendous, but to encourage people to not just dip 5 levels on there heavy armor wearing assassin who has negative ranks in hide/ms, and is more akin to a tank rolling up and blowing your face off. I mean heck, assassins don't even get evasion, which never made sense to me. Rogues practically do everything they can besides the unreliable DA, except they get more skill points, evasion, and you can take it at any time.

The assassin guild is completely abandoned at the moment even, when I first made one all the rooms were filled, people leaving notes, but now? I think people realized it just wasn't worth it. Contracts are also crappy, 95% of that board are characters who are inactive or don't exist anymore. Can there be a timer that auto removes these or something? Because it's just wasting space.

All in all, assassins are crap, that's why most people rarely ever went for more then 3 or now 5 levels, and that's lame as hell.

EDIT: I also forgot to comment on poisons, probably because that's how useless they are, no one ever bothers to purchase or use them. No- not the worthless cooking poisons (which are only for poisoning food), the ones you can use on weapons.

[Yorick Shadowfeather]

Yep. You need a whooooole bunch of assassin levels for a good dc. And it's next to useless for most of the GRIND. But assassin as a class is not a GRIND class it's.. An assassin. However, putting all your eggs in one basket on ANY character is bad. You want to have damage and some ab on your assassin, then suddenly you're only slightly less useful to other people on the grind.

DC based classes are ALWAYS a grind. they are always a late game character, And that is when they become extremely powerful, like an Implosion DC cleric. They are pretty weak for... A long time really. Then they hit epics and start being able to do crazy stuff; and at 30- They have an instant death spell they can use at range to kill just about everyone.

I think the DC check on poisons, and even the cooking crafting poisons should probably get looked at. Poisons have a lot of potential in game but I don't really see it in use that much atm besides tricking someone to drink some water go get minus 5 some stat.

The poison dc on the Deadly nightshade poison is a 24. Mages can even make that one with ease, And while being able to poison food is awesome, It's somewhat disappointing... Poisoning food should be extremely dangerous in my opinion; It's a lot harder to get someone to eat or drink something than just handing it to them- as mentioned earlier.

There's several issues with that. You have a lower AB because you invested in Int, you have a lower HP pool, because again, you invested in Int. And even then, resisting your insane DC is as easy as using a Freedom wand. That's the issue here, you invest levels, attributes, gear and a simple wand defeats your core class mechanic. So does Mind Blank if I recall correctly, so does monk mind immunity, duergar, or a high level palemaster.

The ab thing is 100% on point. But Mind blank, or monk immunity don't prevent it-- I wasn't sure- so I had to test them xD
What does: Pale Master sneak immunity, RDD Paralysis immunity, Duergar sub-race, and Freedom. It can be removed by freedom, Remove Paralysis, Restoration +Greater Restoration, And Praying.
And due to UMD, each of the removing thing are available to any nearby...

About Rogues... Rogues are not restricted to evil, Do not require rpr, and the rogue bonus feats can be taken in epic levels for many more options. So they can choose Epic dodge, or they could go for a far wider range of build choices than any DC based assassin. A DC based assassin is generally; Fighter/Monk/Assassin. That is the best way you can support Death attack, anyways. That restricts them by quite a bit, And forces them far down the DA path. They may get all the neat little skills from being an assassin, But they won't ever be very defensive, they spent most of their build focusing on DA, which is kind of a trap with all the disadvantages it has. And if the assassin doesn't go for DA, then they wouldn't be a very good assassin... Rogue gets everything else that assassin does. Including Epic traps, sneak damage, skills, poison with a high enough dexterity modifier. The only thing they lose vs assassins is DA. Better to go an evil aligned rogue and call yourself an assassin.

[Cortex]

It should be noted that sneak attack and death attack are hardcoded, and thus can't be modified without hak (unless Scholar makes some really obscure black magic with NWNX). Meaning, adding extra effects or changing the existing effects is presently impossible.

[PUNCHDOG]

Here's me going out on a limb.

I think this thread has been clumping together the issue of assassins (as a class) and issues surrounding the guild into one. imho, they should be looked at as separate problems. In the end, they're two totally separate things.

Step one: Make the assassin's guild great again
Make assassin contract available to anyone with an evil (or neutral?) character and 20(30?)+rpr. Maybe require a DM quest to get the token.
Bring back RP before pvp. I 100% understand why it was gotten rid of for assassins (heck, I was part of the group fighting for it) but in the end I think it's been more anti-fun than beneficial.
Add a substantial XP gain for completing a contact, variable based on the contract's level. If I can grind 10,000gp in an hour, why would I spend multiple days trying to track some dude down? On the flip side, if I get 2k xp for killing him...
Add an assassin's guild outpost to sibayad and/or wharftown. I've always considered it strange why assassins are considered an underdark thing.

Step two: Fix assassins (the class)
There's a lot of ways this can be done. However, as bad as it is to have assassin underpowered, it would be 100x worse to overpower them. So lets be really careful here. These are some potential suggestions.
Double the gold/xp reward from contracts.
Ability to hire assassiny henchmen.
I also like the idea of assassin pins, as mentioned above. Make it possible to toggle the pin on/off easily.
(If this is possible) Instead of making it so that DA only fires off when the target isn't in combat, add a timer on it (~10 rounds?) instead and have it fire whenever a sneak attack would fire. This way, it can still be useful in PVE (which imho is what I think assassins suck the most at) but still won't be overpowered in PVP (if an assassination attempt lasts longer than 10 rounds, you're doing it wrong).

In the end, DA DCs suffer from the same thing that all (non infi-caster) DC spells face: Unbelievably high saves across the board in PVE. This can be rooted back to infi-casters, and their ability to spew out nonstop save-or-die crowd control spells (I'm looking at you, fiendlocks...) but that's an issues for a different thread. DAs won't be reliable until mob's saves are brought down to a sane level, which I don't think will happen any time soon.

[Cerk Evermoore]

Save gear. Yup, you're correct. I've still never had trouble paralyzing anyone, really. I don't think people bother gearing these days. Sure-That's dependent on other people-But the meta is still part of the game.
.

Anyone who is experienced in pvp will quickly see that stacking saving throws is the first thing you do when you prepare for pvp. Unless you like just instantly getting picked off by death magic or like getting crowd controlled for the longest five minutes of your life.

From what I understand you need to survive a dc on will of 42 in order to survive some specialized in death magic.

But the crafted poisons are like dc checks of 24, I have to take off all my armor and drink like five poisoned potions to even have a chance of it working on me ICly, and even if it does work. All they're going to do is minus the persons primary stat by like -5. If it did real effects like paralyzed the person it could be much more of a "Gotcha" type thing, but at the moment.

Poison just exist to trick your friend into lowering his strength score before you betray him and try to kill him. Which is really disappointing because I had to make a 32 DC check to craft some of the poisons and I had a lot of big dreams involving them leveling up. Only now to be challenged in trying to think up ways to constructively use poisons because of their low DC check and meager results.

[Nitro]

Add an assassin's guild outpost to sibayad and/or wharftown. I've always considered it strange why assassins are considered an underdark thing.

Just a sidenote, there is an assassins guild base outside of the Underdark. Ask around some shadier types in game and they can probably point you towards it.

[Yorick Shadowfeather]

Add an assassin's guild outpost to sibayad and/or wharftown. I've always considered it strange why assassins are considered an underdark thing.

Just a sidenote, there is an assassins guild base outside of the Underdark. Ask around some shadier types in game and they can probably point you towards it.

You can only join the guild from that location anyway; So they are forced to find it anyway.

[PUNCHDOG]

Add an assassin's guild outpost to sibayad and/or wharftown. I've always considered it strange why assassins are considered an underdark thing.

Just a sidenote, there is an assassins guild base outside of the Underdark. Ask around some shadier types in game and they can probably point you towards it.

You can only join the guild from that location anyway; So they are forced to find it anyway.

TIL

but this was a small point anyway.

[Yorick Shadowfeather]

Alright- It's been a bit longer- And i think everyone's had a chance for their say so far. And I never did post my whole post- There's still some stuff to cover of course!

Regarding the Guild itself, I have several other things to mention. While being able to join at lvl 5 Sin(or a minimum of character level 10 if taken immediately), All the contracts are, and have been, on Level 30 characters. That, Or shelved/banned/rolled/dragon characters. Not to mention there is about one contract added every few RL weeks to months, and that one is first come, first serve. Anyway- Assassins are forced to level to 30 in order to actually try at the contracts, And even then, They have a high chance of needing to use Epic traps on many targets... And sorry, Epic traps are just no fun. For anyone. Naturally, I don't expect anyone to put a contract on a low level 8-14 character unless they are running in an election/has been elected. Nor do I expect people to pit their level 14 assassin vs a level 30 contract. The problem lying in the fact that players will not just place contracts without meaning, and- if there is meaning- Would much rather settle it themselves... Unless they can't. That is where the Guild's crazy contracts come from. That, and the few anti-councilor contracts, which is abuse-able.

Next thing is the Guild's Contract system; When a player sets a contract, They pay a certain amount of gold. We'll go with 10k for an example. When an assassin completes it, They get less than that 10k (not sure what the split is, I think it's roughly 25%), to represent the Guild taking it's share. Now that's all good and fine, and realistic; BUT. The assassin guild ends up taking a lot of gold total, either from completed or uncompleted contracts... But has nothing to offer the Assassins that make it up. This includes an actual job. The shop is extraordinarily overpriced with lame gear; (see minor traps) when -in order to kill level 30 targets- you need far superior things to even try. There are no special bonuses, And as the assassins generally don't need somewhere to stay, The Guild is sapping gold for no mechanical reason. Something fair would be to have all members of the guild get gold back at the end of every game month, Depending on a set amount of gold earned by the whole guild-which can be changed depending on how many active assassins there are(if they logged in that week), How many contracts have been added recently, How many contracts were completed, and how much they were worth. That or the shop could have better gear that month. Or half prices. Or have it only take gold after the first contract a single assassin turns in, per in-game year.

The assassin Quarters are awesome. I love how they are set up- Minus one thing... They are set in the same area as the guild. They may not be very expensive to purchase, But the rent is that of a large house, Due to all the fixtures. I think the rent is 2500 or so, For a single tile room. Maybe keep them the same size and put them in their own area, Because those rooms are extremely expensive; Far more than they were intended to be i'm sure.

It's unfortunate to say that our player-base just isn't mature enough for an ability like the Guild's Gank ability. Not for the people having it used on them, And especially not for the people using it. There have been several posts about some people hating the idea of it, and others of just how badly it has been abused. I would say that there are more people that would rather it gone, than it being kept. If only because they don't want to be cheese killed. The Guild has very little place in Arelith, except in roleplay.

And saddest of all...The guild's rp is non existent, to the point that someone actually posted it on the Assassin's board. Speaking of which, There is roughly a single message once every 4-6 weeks, or about a full ig year. Nobody wants to play their assassins, Because of the reasons stated above. Or they don't rp with others in the guild. And when you have less people playing, it makes it harder, and less fun for other people that want to join. Nobody joins dead factions- Which only worsens the problem, creating a cycle of people maybe wanting to try Assassins, but cannot, because nobody is there to help, or rp with them. So naturally, they get bored and leave, roll up a new char, etc. Resetting the cycle- keeping the assassin's numbers severely limited. Or they go find a super secret faction, one requiring them to reveal themselves, while the faction remains completely anonymous themselves... That's a bit annoying if you ask me. I had time to level my assassin all the way to now, Talk with a bunch of really cool Non-assassins who said they'd try to get me in some rp, for about ... uh... However old my character is. I'm terrible at keeping track. Several months though, 8+. I met only.... Four other assassins; One being a good friend. In total, I'd heard of about two or three more, But I never saw or met them.

[Lorkas]

It's not outrageous for a company to take a fee for connecting people who need work with people who need workers.

Maybe, though, when someone places a contract for 10k, it should display to assassins as a 7.5k contract. That way there isn't this sense that the 10k should belong to the assassin but doesn't.

[Durvayas]

A couple things as someone who built a PC with the intent of making a death squad of assassins.

I get the reason we were given the no-rp before killing rule. It was to help those super rare(less than 3) DC based assassins actually have a return on their investment for taking assassin levels for the DC.

Personally, I think the no-rp rule should be removed, or perhaps waived if you talk to the target in tells so they know they're about to get jumped.

I built a WM assassin. Shamelessly, I might add.
Not for meme-like surprise stabbing. But because in the endgame, my assassin is the one I want the target to see coming and focus on. She rolls up in plate with two weapons like a panzer because thats the style I was going for. To let the target either try to run, attempt to pay her(Not the guild) off, stand and fight, OR... get ganked by the ones in the shadows that my PC was distracting from. I took the class for the "death attack" appearing above my PC's head, not for the nigh useless DC attack that literally only triggers in perfect conditions(timestop), but to represent that my PC fights brutally and mercilessly, and sought some finer points in the art of killing from actual assassins. Being involved in the guild would be fun without messing up my build, but hey, what can ya do? I'm in it for the RP.

I think changing the requirement to lvl 5 to join the guild was pointlessly moving the goalposts.(As it did nothing to stop the cheesed wizard build assassins in the hands of a pair of problem players(They were grandfathered in, defeating the purpose.) And new assassins still seem to predominantly be wizards.)
Let a 3 level assassin join the guild, but prevent them from taking contracts. Foster some apprentice/master assassin play by making the guild accessible to anyone who has the class(Possibly consider improving the vetting process, which is why it got abused so much in the first place, and seriously punish people who cheese the system by deleveling them and taking away their assassin's token.), but restrict the actual contracts until some real investment is in. Anyone who joined the assassin's guild for the RP of it need not be penalized.

Assassin certainly needs help mechanically. As many have pointed out above, its a discount rogue for more than three times the price.

Penalties:
-Must be evil(lowers the number of potential assassins, arguably a plus if your assassin works solo).
-Must invest 8 hide and move silently.(Expensive investment for non dex based classes, further lowers the number of potential assassins.)
-High INT requirement for DCs to be worth anything at all.(Actually encourages wizards to become assassins because somehow, they're the best at it.)
-No E-dodge.(Very much an inferior rogue to boot)
-Death Attack appearing above your head instead of sneak attack(Arguably a plus).
-Abysmal saves.

To get:
-poison saves(that you'll probably not need by the time you actually get assassin levels)
-Immunity to the useless weapon poisons.(Highest DC is in the 20s(?) The poisons last about five seconds before they need to be re-applied).
-An extremely specific checklist of things where the planets kinda need to align for your DC death attack to trigger.
-Death attack that, as per above, is situationally useful, but really only shines in PvE when you carry invis pots.

Beyond that, they need the fighter treatment. There has to be some benefit to going deep into assassin because right now, its like shooting yourself in the leg before a track meet. You gimp your character's ability to assassinate by taking more than the minimum levels in the class.

[Flameborn]

I really think you are calling the kettle black on "cheesy" magical assassins when you "shamelessly" push your own weaponmaster assassin.

Why can't an assassin use magic, or swords, or a huge axe? Not every assassin is sneaky, or stabby, or magical.

Let people build how they want to.

As far as balance goes, assassin has its place, and could use a little (small) amount of love or flavor. Perhaps some level 10/15/20 level assassin benefits that really buff the people who go deep into the class.

Let a level 10 assassin have more sneaky spells to cast

Let a level 15 assassin have hips.

Let a level 20 assassin death attack crit immune things.

Just a few quick suggestions off the top of my head.

[Nitro]

Personally I'm playing an almost completely noncombat assassin who completes contracts by tricking big strong high levels into dangerous areas and either bumbling around to pull more mobs on the targer, or backstabbing them at a crucial moment.

Bonus points if you can manage to instigate a fight between the target and another epic character, just creep out and collect the bounty when the smoke clears.

[Shadowy Reality]

Nitro, I think that's a really good way to go about it, specially if your target knows he's being hunted and you drop the occasional, dubious clues as to what might be happening.

Assassins aren't really that weak mechanic wise, be they caster assassins, melee assassins, or sneaky assassins, you can build them several ways and most of the times they end up fine.

The real issue is how much they can affect the word, which is ironical, because that was the whole purpose behind their change. I can't speak of Assassins themselves, because I have never been marked ICly for such but I know that in general, sometimes, even great RPers can perform poorly when PvP is at stake. I'm not blaming anyone, PvP is stressful to an extent and during stress situations you are prone to make mistakes and poor decisions.

That said... Assassins can remove settlement leaders and apparently candidates. I have heard people say that this was to counter Harpers ability to vote but is it really? Look at the number of people voting and then think about the number of Harpers that probably exist. Even if all the Harpers coordinated to vote, they would likely not make a difference. You need a single Assassin to influence the world, quite easily at that, killing someone is easy if you don't care how you do it.

[Tarkus the dog]

I'm going to regret posting this but seeing how it's starting to affect me in a way I may as well. Most of my posts on the forums are unimportant and I advice you all not to bother reading them because you'll end up wasting your time, but I urge you to listen to me on this one.

There are so many things I dislike about the assassins on Areith and I don't even know where to begin, but most of these things I'll mention you already know of so I may be repeating what others have said here. That being said - I absolutely love the concept of assassinations/assassins in video games. Dark Brotherhood quests are always the first ones I would do in Skyrim and Oblivion, in Dark Souls I love starting as a rogue but I always get my Snuggybear handed to me by the mobs and oh did I enjoy every single moment in Dishonored as Corvo - even when I played the pacifist route. Even in League Zed and Talon are one of my favorite characters, even though I'm god awful when playing them.

But the reason I hate how the assassins work on Arelith is because of the players that play them. People are willing to squeeze the living BarkBark out of the dairy cow that are the Assassin Contracts, and they will go to great lengths to fulfill their character's goals to the point where I ask myself what is the point of Roleplaying when few of us are actually doing that ( actually I take that back, I don't Roleplay anymore I just meme and misbehave ). I refuse to believe that there wasn't a situation where a Contract was first discussed OOCly and then ICly. And I'm not pointing fingers at anyone - yes, there are assassin players that I like/respect.

Clearly the solution to this is to simply report these people to the DM team ( and give them proper evidence ) and let them handle that. Well it isn't, and while I absolutely adore some of the DMs and other Arelith staff members... they aren't always capable of giving these players the proper punishment that they deserve (Not implying that I or anyone else is really capable of doing that. Judging people is freaking hard ). Sometimes they do and sometimes they don't. And I understand, I understand that your job ( or a hobby ) isn't simple and that judging people accordingly isn't easy, especially when there is a vague as hell "Be nice" rule which can be interpreted in several different ways. So what do you do when a respected member of the community does something they otherwise wouldn't? Well hell I can't get mad at them, nobody is perfect. People sometimes do something they usually wouldn't for whatever the reason and no matter how bad their actions sometimes may be it's better to just tell them to easy it a little instead of giving them a hard punishment. Therefore.. I believe that the main problem are ourselves. We as human beings aren't simple and therefore this issue isn't simple either. No, it's not the 21 cleric 4 ranger 5 assassin builds, or the 20 fighter 5 wm 5 sin or whatever you're supposed to build as a WM assassin. The problem is in all of us. Assassins, non-assassins. Even you snuggybears who hang around outside the Nomad all day long while accomplishing nothing. So we can all change ourselves, how we treat the assassins and how they treat us ( since I don't play one I have to talk from the non-assassin's perspective. ) Since this won't be happening ( although recently I started believing in miracles ) some changes to the assassin class are in order.

Assassin Contracts just hold too much power over the players and their characters. Most of the players want their Roleplay to go in a certain way and both assassins and their clients have the power to completely change the direction in which their RP is going. And while Roleplaying the unexpected and adapting to the changes can be thrilling and exciting, some people just don't enjoy that. And sometimes even the folk who are fine with that - their RP gets smashed and they lose all will to play anymore. I'm not only talking about the settlement leaders. I don't blame anyone, everyone has a reason for Roleplaying here and not all of our reasons match. So I can't blame people who want to RP being the King of Arelith, Empress of Guldorand or Grand Duke of the Arcane Tower. And I can't blame everybody else who will specifically design their character to prevent all of that. Because hell, maybe they enjoy doing that - Maybe they enjoy ruining someone's IC dreams and /will/ hire every single assassin available to complete their goals. And I honestly don't care about any of that for as long as it stays IC - however, as I already said, some people tend to take things differently from the others and if Metagaming is a tool they can use - they're gonna use it. So in order to prevent this we /need/ those Assassin changes. I don't know which changes, I don't think anyone really does but I think understand that something needs to be done is a good start. Or we can go back to my previous point - and simply leave things as they are and start to develop a common sense when it comes to the assassins. You can call it a set of unspoken rules which all members of the Arelith community should know of and follow, either this... sort of ethic revolution or a complete overhaul/some change to the assassins. I hate repeating myself but it's up to us, really,.. so let's not screw it up.