Piety Discussion

[msterswrdsmn]

Because I haven't made a discussion topic in a while.

What's the general consensus on the piety system as it is? I'm curious to hear what other peoples experiences have been like with the different piety catagories, both in terms of gaining/maintaining piety levels, and the actual godsave bonus.

War and Destruction:
The easiest of the piety paths to keep up and running. 0.5% piety for killing anything? Easy enough when enemies spawn in groups of 4 or 5 at a time. Some places, like the Malar temple in the forest of Despair generate dozens of critters at once. Since piety is easy to raise and keep up, the god saves trigger often and reliably. Or at least, as often/reliably as a god save should (ie: enough to where it has saved me quite a few times, but not enough to where i'm relying on it to save me)

Knowledge & Invention
I. HATED. This catagory. The piety-to-crafting-point ratio was incredibly small. I think it was 0.1% piety for each crafting point spent. Which meant that once every 24 IG hours (2 and a half real life hours), I generated a whopping 5% piety with 50 crafting points. This was awful. I'd loose most, if not all of that 5% in the time it took crafting points to regenerate. Avoiding the dreaded 1 rolls was nice on occassion, but raising enough piety to trigger this meant hours in front of an altar. I never found an invention priest, so all piety gains had to be made through an unblessed altar.

Very much a struggle to raise/keep up for very small gains. Maybe have knowledge/invention piety reduce the xp/gold costs for crafting scrolls/wands/potions?

Trickery
I have no experience with this catagory, so its hard to say what the piety gains/benefits are like.

Magic
Not bad. Godsaves in the enchantment basins were a lifesaver when doing heavy enchanting work, even after it got nerfed. It was fairly easy to keep up as well; the peity gained from using magic items/casting was low (0.01% per cast), but unlike the invention group, there wasn't a hard limit as to how much piety I could gain from cast. How much piety I gained from spellcasting was more or less determined by how willing I was to mindlessly grind-cast piety in Mayfields while chain-drinking alcohol to do a forced-rest.

Altars blessed to magic dieties are fairly common, as well, so praying for piety wasn't terribly painful either.

Nature
I think you gained a full point of piety for tending to plants? It was pretty easy to keep piety up with people dropping 50 plants in a single cluster. Not sure how easy/hard it is to keep up now with the changes to plants. I don't remember what piety did for nature-worshippers, so I can't really comment on the benefit of the godsave-bonus.

I did notice that if you have the greenfinger gift, you gain piety for tending to plants no matter what deity you followed.

Edit:
Hearth and Home
Forgot about this one. Whoops. I've never had a character with this domain, and consequently, I have no idea what this does or how you raise piety with it.

[kittenblackfriends]

I mean, I've had no problem whatsoever with the magic piety as a Weavemaster. If I'm at 80% and I go out adventuring with a crew, chances are good that I'll max out my piety by the end. However, I have no perspective on the old enchanting system.

People with War&Destruction, I notice getting a lot of godsaves, which is reasonable. It often really does save their life in an encounter, even if they lose all their buffs.

[Iceborn]

In my opinion, and talking about these domains as sole components, and not how they work in tandem:

War and Destruction:
Is still far too convenient and good. Nearly every character can find use for it and a way to raise it.

Knowledge and Invention:
I never had a character with a K&I. I don't think it's remotely good, it seems absurdly hard to raise and it's prone to fire smelting glass or something equally useless.

Trickery:
Hard to raise, easy to drop. I always felt that it really needed to be raised to, at the very least, +0.2 or 0.3 per time that the disguise holds.

Magic:
Another absurdity. To raise magic from 0 to 100% you need to cast a thousand spells. A THOUSAND SPELLS! A feat that is worth making a party and getting very drunk for any non-infinite caster. Considering that each rest, an epic mage gets, how many, 40~ spells? Even as a Weave Master it took me UNTIL I HIT LEVEL 13 (and that was constantly spamming magic missile at everything that moved like a cowboy with a nervous tic on the trigger finger) to get to 100%.

Nature:
Back when I played my ranger, it was just fine with little bushes conveniently placed everywhere. I don't know how it stands now.

Heart and whatever:
Unless you are a favored soul, there's little to no reason to take this domain. At early levels you can (and must) spam potions and healing salves, which consequentially raises it which consequentially will save your life at some point, but afterwards, only characters with infihealing will bother to raise the piety this way.
Healing kits should add +0.1, at the very least, and I would push it to 0.2.

More than that, I'd argue that all domains should have the same chance for death godsave.


But that's my opinion...

[The Rambling Midget]

Knowledge & Invention needs to be overhauled, IMO. Many years ago, we had a crafting renaissance, where there was a glut of player crafted items all over the island, and a very active economy. Some "things" happened (*grumble, grumble*) and all of that changed. The community has also changed as we've added a lot of younger players to the fold who are more familiar with WoW type RPGs, which focus more on dungeon crawling than playing The Sims in Faerun. In short, crafting has seen a decline in popularity, so the crafting save, while fantastic, doesn't seem as fitting anymore.

I'd like for it to somehow put equal importance on the Knowledge part of the aspect, but I'm not sure how best to do that. Finding new areas should give piety, and there's already a hook from the adventure XP system, but that runs out pretty quickly.

[tango.icecream]

I think the crafting godsave is wonderful myself having played a knowledge one once : ( I hate the auto 1's since I've had five 1's in a row (not even an exaggeration) on numerous occasions. Most of the serious crafters often need to craft one or more parts to make a final component, and the chance to roll a 1 on the way to the final product is not miniscule.

That said, I do agree that the piety gain from crafting itself is pretty pitiful. It's easier to AFk and go to the bathroom or grab an ice cream at an altar to your god than craft to raise piety that way. Magic is another one that I think the godsave is amazing, but the piety raise from casting magic is pitiful.

I also am not playing an infinite caster and love hearth. I hope it's not nerfed or buffed. It seems like just the right amount of a bonus for casting a spell, on equal par with War and Destruction. Though I don't think it's unreasonable for a healing kit to count towards it either (just not as much).

Nature always seemed completely broken to me from my own experience. I don't know why poking a plant is 1% gain each. Even with the fewer plants around, 1% to poke seems like a lot to me.

[Baron Saturday]

I'd like for it to somehow put equal importance on the Knowledge part of the aspect, but I'm not sure how best to do that. Finding new areas should give piety, and there's already a hook from the adventure XP system, but that runs out pretty quickly.

What if successful lore checks (identifying items, translating languages) increased piety as well?

[MissEvelyn]

I think it's important to remember that a 100% Piety represents a zealous and faithful individual whose dedication to her god is exceptional. Dedication to a deity should be just that: Dedication.

However, I do agree that Knowledge and Invention needs an overhaul, as it is sitting and wasting great potential right now. Crafting covers the invention part, but what about the knowledge? I think, as Baron Saturday suggested, successful lore checks (of any kind) should be rewarded with a bit of piety. TRM also made a great suggestion with new areas giving piety. Perhaps learning new spells, also?
I think there is so much potential for this domain.

Same with Trickery.
Pickpocketing, picking locks, disabling traps, and so on should all provide piety. I'm sure it pleases Mask and the gods of Trickery when you successfully open that lock or pick that pocket.

But should all these be raised quickly? Certainly not. If you want a truly faithful character, they will have to earn it. There's no 'free grace' in this fantastical world. You have to earn that favor with the gods~

[AnselHoenheim]

....Knowledge & Invention....

[Astral]

I hope this discussion wont cause a nerf to WnD.

[Lorkas]

There isn't much on W&D to nerf apart from how much piety you get per kill. Even if it were lowered to 0.1% piety per kill, it still wouldn't be too tough to keep it up by killing stuff.

Honestly the strongest W&D perk is that if your deity has W&D alongside another perk, you can raise your piety to get that other perk more often.

[gilescorey]

I hope this discussion wont cause a nerf to WnD.

I'd rather see buffs to the other domains, putting them on par with it, than perpetuating an already aggravating system that makes you spend a lot of time AFK in front of an altar.

[Astral]

I hope this discussion wont cause a nerf to WnD.

I'd rather see buffs to the other domains, putting them on par with it, than perpetuating an already aggravating system that makes you spend a lot of time AFK in front of an altar.

To be fair. Godsave on death is cool cause you don't lose 500~ exp and 10-30k gold that you're carrying and ALSO you can save the day and the adventure can go on without you and all your party suffer death-penalty for the next w/e amount of hours (don't know cuase I got W&D and I don't die, ever), WHICH IS COOL and I love it.

But godsave on basin and godsave on crafting is MUCH more op and the piety should be harder to get, relatively to W&D.

[Diilicious]

it would be good if to even be eligable for a god save at all you had to perform certain tasks relevant to your god.
defeat x number of enemies / deal y number of damage points per day
Examine/read x number of books per day
Tend to a z number of plants
Use y number of crafting points.
Spend x number of minuntes / cover x distance per day undetected.

or things like, in the book of chauntea it says that her worshipers pray in the evening time, so say if worshipers prayed at between 5pm and 9pm. then they would be eligible that way

[CragOrion]

Home and Hearth is just too dang hard to keep up unless you're a favored soul. It would be nice if there was another thing that rose their piety. Like rping inside domestic areas. Maybe add some unique qualifiers like, for sea deities, raise rp the more time you spend in sea/boat areas, stuff like that.

Also, make the piety gains scale depending on whether the god is a major, intermediate, lesser, or whataveyou. Greater gods would gain you piety more at a time than lesser ones. That's my two cents on the piety system

[Ork]

One of my characters is a faithful of hearth & home, and it absolutely sucks trying to rise piety beyond praying at an altar for literal half hours.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

I think it's a brilliant design, but a bad system because I have systematically chosen faiths based on their piety domains rather than the roleplay of the chosen deity. I've never picked anything that wasn't Magic, Nature or War&Destruction.

I think you could K&I to graint 0.1% or (0.01%) per every 1 crafting point used. Home and Hearth I think could be axed. I don't know what's it meant to represent - the "cushy" gods? I think we could reinvent that somehow.

Trickery should get piety bonuses for unlocking chests and disabling traps.

[Arelith_Rocks]

Not much to say about piety, but I do feel like there are some missed opportunities with altars and consecrate.

It probably isn't worth the work, but I think it would be cool if desecrating/consecrating an altar somehow notified the players of that respective faith that it had been desecrated/consecrated. Maybe implement added functionality to -investigate command for altars that would allow PC's to collect information about the player who tampered with the altar.

I also think in general there should be more incentive to having altars, and protecting them. Though something like that would likely require more work, that probably isn't worth it.

It would be cool though if you could donate magic blood or [insert item here] to an altar instead of always having to pray or cough up gold. Maybe make the items abit uncommon? Does anybody really care anyway if it's easier to obtain piety?

[Arelith_Rocks]

I also think consecrating an altar should grant piety, and not consume it - though I imagine there could've been a balance/abuse justification for this feature.

[Dr_Hazard89]

For Hearth and Whatever I keep my piety up by praying in front of an altar until I fall asleep or cry a little, or by squeezing bramble goblins for their healing salves and then greasing myself up with them.

[Ben Garrison]

I usually select deities with 2 domains, and I'll bet I'm not alone. Here's an idea: Greater deities should have 3 domains, intermediate and lesser have 2, and demigods and planar powers only get one. If pressed, I might be able to think up a new domain to add to the list, but here's what we have now (and what I think about it):

War 'n' Destruction- Basically perfect as-is.

Hearth and Home- To answer Seven, my understanding is that yes, this domain represents the "comfy" pantheon, which should include every hobbit deity (and racial deities like Gruumsh, Corellon and Zarus, however in these cases piety should only be granted when healing members of the correct species). I would raise the amount of piety gained to 1% for the correct species healed, 0.1% for anyone else, and 0.1% per crafting point spent on cooking food items.

Knowledge and Invention- Honestly I would increase the piety gain to 1% per crafting point spent, making it 10x easier to gain piety. I'd grant .5% for successful lore checks, .5% for each use of bardsong, and .1% for every crafting project started. What's more, I'd give this one a "pop-up save", since its god-saves are always in noncombat situations . If the save would happen, make it optional, because 25% piety can be worth more than a raw greenstone gem (or whatever).

Trickery and Deceit- I'd leave the piety gain from NPCs failing to recognize the character, but raise it to 1% if a PC fails to recognize them. I'd also grant .5% for successful pickpocket attempts (PC or NPC) and .5% for casting Illusion spells.

Nature- This one has always seemed balanced to me (muh balance), but if there are fewer plants around perhaps it could use a boost. What about .5% for killing aberrations and outsiders?

Magic- Basically perfect as-is. Maybe it could be adjusted so that infinite casters get 0.1% per spell cast, and non-infinite casters get .5% or even 1% per spell cast?

[Xarge VI]

Since I'm at work so I have too much time in going to write some half thought out ideas:

I think piety gain should be made harder for everyone. Aside from praying at altars. This would make joining cults that much more important.
Also I'd like to see the praying rewards altered. Like increased chance to find better treasure for trickery. Or a random boon for items made in crafting for knowledge and invention. This could be tied to a mode that can be toggled at altars (maybe by a priest) where you will consume significantly more piety but allows small chances for these divine interventions.

[Manticore]

As a cleric of a Knowledge and Invention god, I agree completely with most of what's been said. Since I got to a level where I cast higher-tier spells that cost 1-4 piety per cast, I find myself having to start most every play session with a 15-20 minute AFK in front of my altar for prayer. (Doing that right now, in fact.) I do craft but the piety gain from it is completely negligible. It's just frustrating knowing I could've chosen a war and destruction deity and rarely had to worry about piety! Or at least be able to get XP while I raised my piety back up.

The save on crafting is fine, and has been a big help once or twice. But I'd love to see the popup option because it can be rather annoying losing that big chunk of piety when I'm polishing a garnet or something.