Barbarian Bite Back Bag of Bees

[Horselords]

The biggest mistake would be to double the downtime. That would basically make them the most boring class to play in PVE (aka 95% of what we do when playing nwn, which is not a pvp game at its core).

Rage => fight, woot nwn and arelith are so fun! => Rage ends => 2587 minutes downtime where you can't do anything (at epic levels, fighting without rage is either a drag, expensive, or death sentence). So you wait, you wait, and you wait more. Then you rage, and you speedrun across the level without looting to actually optimize uptime and play the damn game for 2 minutes (and feeling that pressured is not really fun either even when you rage). Then you wait, you wait, you wait, you wait. Then you rage ... I would shelve the idea of ever playing barbs again in an instant, not out of spite or butthurt or even because they are weak (they are not, and they won't be), but because playing them would just be more sluggish, frustrating, and unfun over the medium-long play loop (the short loop being as fun as ever). The very reason arelith experimented with endless casting users was to improve the fun factor of the game for certain classes. Not my place to comment if the experiment was a success or not (too ignorant about mages), but more barb downtime certainly goes into the opposite way. At the end of the day, we are playing a game, if the player is bored more than half the time when piloting his char in pve, that's not a good game design choice even if that could be the best balance choice (and it doesnt even have to be, there are other avenues).

Of course others might feel differently about how does it feel to actually play a barb so I might be wrong, but that's how i personnally go through the barb experience (but the current downtime isnt that bad currently so that's still within fun range).

But to me, just nerf them to the ground if you have to (even if I can't even remotely condone that, they don't deserve any nerf, they deserve a change in mechanics from biteback to something just as good), but I beg you, don't nerf them via upping (again) the downtime, everything but that.

My two cents.

Cheers.

[Artos13]

I wish these discussions were less about "what class beats other class and how", and more about making a class fun and different from other styles of play.

[Cortex]

That's still pretty decent, considering there are classes who can barely PvE by themselves, or maybe not at all. Barbarians CAN solo, slowly but they can, and in a party they can be an off tank or be guarded by someone else, they still have melee DPS.

Think about rogues, or bards, or CHA paladins or even sorcerers, these are just a few examples that suffer a great deal more than barbarians in solo PvE.

I wish these discussions were less about "what class beats other class and how", and more about making a class fun and different from other styles of play.

i mean arguably barbarian already achieved that (I've had multiple barbs and had lots of fun). Some semblance of balance is still important and this thread is literally about class balance.

[Bashagain]

Whoa, this is an unexpectedly long thread. Here's a quick lunch-time interlude for your enjoyment.

Empire Strikes Back
Barbarians Bite Back
But let's go Back to the Future
Since we said "I'll be Back."

Back in black we are
As devs' got our backs
Back-to-school's back
And kids must go back

Bite-back bites back
And back we're here
With back-to-back
Back-talk about Barbarians

[Shadofury]

If i was going to change something about barbarians, i would change the way the rage feat is worked. for example on arelith we have unlimited rage, but barbs still lose a feat choice when the coded rage times per day goes up. we go from rage to greater rage at lvl 15 and another greater rage at 25 ( this is terrifying rage if you have the intimidate score at the proper level) now that is two boosts to rage. However when you level up at certain levels you gain another rage per day as opposed to a feat choice. Since this doesnt apply, maybe that would be possible to alter, considering those four feat spots could add more to fleshing out the char story with other things a barb can do.

[Morderon]

The reason bite back damage is as high as it is because of critters damage resistance/reduction/immunity.

If nwnx could be used so that the biteback can penetrate damage reduction depending on it's value. Then it's damage wouldn't need to be as high as it is currently.

[msterswrdsmn]

From my personal experience, biteback isn't too bad. It pairs nicely with other damage shield sources, like death armor potions (easy to craft at low levels!). At the same time, its not something you can/should rely on to carry you through every fight, as only melee enemies are affected by this. And even then, a strong melee enemy will eat through your HP before your biteback can drop it past the injured state.

So...its like any other nwn ability; good for some situations, but you're going to get hilariously stomped if you rely completely on it.

[dirza]

Well why are you talking about running around? I wish to see how you keep running around when party pvp is ongoing and those three barbarians in other party are wiping out your buddies with their 50+ AB on great weapons while hiding behind bite back dmg.

The idea that players just build on "getting hit" and nothing else is really hilarious. Especially when joined together with temporary hps.

Why arent barbarians just immune to KD, disarm, stunning effects, paralises, instead of getting that weird thing called bite back? And when they reach 0 hps in rage, isntead of dieing, they cannot be killed (like trolls cannot without fire) until rage wears off? That would make it more interesting, then just people relying they hit me and die because of it.

[kittenblackfriends]

I wish these discussions were less about "what class beats other class and how", and more about making a class fun and different from other styles of play.

What if Barbs had more paths? We have the Kensai, we have the Tribesmen, and then we have what I'll call "Berserker" which is the default path.

What if we also added a "Shock Trooper", designed to move fast and have some higher saves vs magic and %resistance to elemental and piercing damage, making it a troop that barges to the backline and beats mages/archers, dropping their biteback and extra damage?

How about a Valkyrie, that relies on CHA or WIS for a group buff when raging (PDK's Inspire Courage comes to mind) and gets some bonuses to their Heal score, replacing their biteback?

[Cortex]

I wish these discussions were less about "what class beats other class and how", and more about making a class fun and different from other styles of play.

What if Barbs had more paths? We have the Kensai, we have the Tribesmen, and then we have what I'll call "Berserker" which is the default path.

What if we also added a "Shock Trooper", designed to move fast and have some higher saves vs magic and %resistance to elemental and piercing damage, making it a troop that barges to the backline and beats mages/archers, dropping their biteback and extra damage?

How about a Valkyrie, that relies on CHA or WIS for a group buff when raging (PDK's Inspire Courage comes to mind) and gets some bonuses to their Heal score, replacing their biteback?

Your shocktrooper is already kind of do-able, and may even get better with future unrelated changes.

Valkyrie is already do-able with multiclassing, something like 16 bard 4 barb 10 ftr, or 23 cleric 4 barb 3 bard.

I think if changes should be made, they should be made to existing features, not add new paths. But that's just me.

[God In Action]

Has anyone thought about changing the barbarian's bite back to a damage aura, like how the summoned balor's works? That would instantly removing kiting as a boring PvP. You could then balance the damage caused as appropriate

[Peppermint]

Well why are you talking about running around? I wish to see how you keep running around when party pvp is ongoing and those three barbarians in other party are wiping out your buddies with their 50+ AB on great weapons while hiding behind bite back dmg.

An optimal barbarian is going to be sitting at about 44 AB. For comparison, a WM sits at around 49.

The barbarian can get more if he wields a two-hander, and can get more if he goes half-orc, but these represent trade offs that hurt him elsewhere.

Let's not argue with hyperbole.

[Iceborn]

We do agree that kiting barbarians until the rage wears off is simply not fun, right?

That's the whole main issue of the class as it stands in PvP; you should be encouraged to try and hit the raging barbarian, but the tradeoff has to be worth your attacks. If you preemptively know that you are not dealing more damage than what your target can shrug, then naturally your course of action is not hitting that target, which leads to this limbo of kiting (TM).

At least hitting a barbarian should give the illusion of progress, instead of knowing that you are dropping your own HP faster than what the barbarian can actually hurt you for directly.

[Peppermint]

Expertise is a good answer to a barbarian.

I don't feel that barbarians are in all that bad a place, though could perhaps use a slight toning down on the biteback (e.g. ~80% of the current value).

The will save bonus is also perhaps a bit much.

However, to be frank, I feel the problems concerning them have been overstated.

[The Rambling Midget]

We do agree that kiting barbarians until the rage wears off is simply not fun, right?

Doesn't that just mean that Barbarians will have to use Rage more strategically in PvP? Sure, if you use it right off the bat, it's a big fat warning sign, but if you trade punches for a while first, it becomes a way to get breathing room, and possibly get a few hits worth of biteback before the other guy reacts. The Barbarian then has the option to either heal or chase, while the opponent's options are to run or accept the attrition.

[Stath]

Expertise is a good answer to a barbarian.

I don't feel that barbarians are in all that bad a place, though could perhaps use a slight toning down on the biteback (e.g. ~80% of the current value).

The will save bonus is also perhaps a bit much.

However, to be frank, I feel the problems concerning them have been overstated.

GLORY GLORY HALLELUJAH
GLORY GLORY HALLELUJAH



IT'S TIME TO LOCK, IT'S TIME TO LOCK OKAY. I'M GOING TO CALL FORUM PROTECTIVE SERVICES. IT'S TIME TO LOCK.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

It'd just be nice to have more paths in general. Paths are the archetypes of the future.

[Artos13]

I agree! Paths are fun, but I do recognize that the staff wants to balance out some of the existing before introducing more. BG2 kits offer some fun ideas, such as wizard slayer, beast master, and for the paladin: cavalier, undead hunter, and Inquisitor.

It could be argued that all of these kits are currently buildable through multiclassing, but paths are fun because they usually introduce some new mechanic. It gives some room for creative inspiration for the scripting wizards.

[kittenblackfriends]

If you ever get around to it, Fighter path Eldritch Knight and Rogue path Arcane Trickster.

Please? ;u;

I forget what EK gets, but AT gets the ability to pick locks from a distance, possibly also pick pockets.

[Shadofury]

this is from another server that level caps so you never see higher then a level 13 or 14 so the levels listed for these can surely be adjusted. Not sure how much is viable for us to use but this gives options for Barbarian paths.


Passive bonuses for all Barbarians:
5% Physical immunity at level 3
10% Physical immunity at level 6
15% Physical immunity at level 9

Rage properties for all Barbarians:
Duration: 7 rounds + CON + CHA modifiers before raging (unless specifically noted otherwise below).
Cannot rage in Heavy Armor.
Passive physical immunity bonus doubled.

Default Rage:
+4 STR / CON, +2 Will, -2 AC

The default properties apply even if multi-classed.



The below archetypes require a pure-classed Barbarian. Passive bonuses will be disabled if the player has the Heavy Armor feat.

Spirit Warrior

Spirit Warriors are those who have undertaken the journey of the silver path under the guidance of their shamen, and have gained the favor of the tribe's patron spirit. Such warriors are held in high esteem, their totem spirits often granting them their supernatural powers when they let go of conscious thought and immerse themselves in their spiritual connection.

+5% Physical Immunity

Spirit Warriors have a 40% chance of being possessed by their totem spirits and taking their form upon raging. When this happens, they receive an additional +4 to STR and CON.

Totem of the Bear:
The bear is a majestic and proud spirit, that values honor, justice and pride in one's heritage.
Rage:
+2 STR, +2 CON, -2 AC, +2 Will, Temporary HP equal to twice Barbarian levels.

Totem of the Boar:
The boar is a warrior spirit, tough and unyielding. It values brashness and rigidity.
Rage:
+2 STR, +2 CON, -2 AC, +2 Fortitude, +5% Physical Immunity

Totem of the Wyrd:
The Wyrd is translated as "Fate" or "Doom" in common. The tribal shamans have never shared its exact nature, but it is regarded as the woman of fate, who guides the destiny of the chosen peoples. She manifests her blessings on warriors who choose her totem to hold dear, warding them against supernatural attacks.
Rage:
+2 STR, +2 CON -2 AC, +1 Universal Saves, 10 + Charisma modifer + Barbarian Levels / 4 Spell Resistance



Dragon Reaver

Many ancient clans fell under the influence of dragons that ruled a region, starting to worship them over time as Gods. In return for their sacrifices, the dragon allowed a few chosen warriors to drink of its blood, gaining some innate magical abilities over time, beginning the tradition of the Dragon Reavers. The secret to preparing dragon's blood for consumption however, has been passed on to many shamans and wise women over the centuries, so many powerful tribes hoard the substance to bestow the gift of the Dragonrage to their favored warriors.

5% Fire Immunity at level 1
10% Fire Immunity at level 4
15% Fire Immunity at level 8

Rage:
+4 STR/CON, -2 AC, 1 + 1/5 Levels Fire damage, +40% Fire immunity, 1d6 Fire shield



Feral Brawler

Feared in his local circles for his uncontrollable rages, inability to feel pain and beat people to death, Feral Brawlers could be displaced tribesmen in the city far removed from their honorable beginnings, gang enforcers or simply unstable drunks. They rip their foes apart with their bare hands, so eager are they to feel the visceral joys of fist on bone.

1/- Bludgeoning resistance at level 1
2/- Bludgeoning resistance at level 4
3/- Bludgeoning resistance at level 8
+3 Intimidate

Rage:
+4 STR/CON, +20% Bludgeoning immunity, -2 AC, Gloves get +1d6 damage.



Thunder Thrower

The traditional savage fights with his axes in the thick of combat, brutally hewing down his foes with a bloody grin upon his face. Yet, some see the potential in striking from afar, their muscle bound bodies flexing mightily as axes soar across the battlefield. Thunder Throwers often hail from mountainous regions, where treacherous footing and narrow passes make prolonged melee combat difficult as rival clans war for dominance.

5/- Electrical Resistance
+1 AC vs. Slashing

Rage:
+4 STR / DEX, +2 Reflex, +10% Slashing Immunity, +1d6 Electrical damage on held throwing axe.



Harbinger of Corruption

Evil only.

The truly mad or desperate spellcasters of warring tribes turn to the entities of the lower planes in a desperate attempt to bring victory to their clans. Often, these entreaties are answered, and warriors of the clan will receive a link to the lower planes from fell beings or vengeful Gods, magnifying their bloodlust and granting them fell powers. Such clans often usher in their own destruction as well, as the warriors now serve as the forerunners of doom for their ancient ways and peoples, under the thumbs of their gleeful benefactors.

1 Fire, 1 Negative damage shield.

Rage:
+4 STR, +2 CON, 1 + 1 Negative damage/5 levels, -2 AC, +25% Fire and Negative Immunity.



Soul of the Valkyrie

The Barbarian must be female and good aligned.

Many of the Uthgardt see it as the greatest possible honor to serve the Battlefather as one of his personal warriors and servants. The wise women who travel between the lands of the chiefs often mark newborn female children in the name of the Tempus, destined to serve him in the afterlife as a Valkyrie. The warrior may accept or reject her mark, or even Tempus himself, but her fate still lies in the Heroic Domains of Ysgard, as a powerful angel of war.

+2 Will Save

Rage:
+2 STR, +2 CON, 1 + 1 divine damage /5 levels, +1 Dodge AC, +25% Fire and Divine Immunity



Wraithbound

Wraithbound Barbarians have a close connection with the troubled spirits of the ethereal plane, brought about spirit journeys gone wrong, the after effects of incomplete possessions or exorcisms, or willfully granted the connection by practicioners of dark magics. They typically have some features that mark their curses, such as bone-white skin, blood-red eyes or cold body temperatures.

5% Cold Immunity at level 1
10% Cold Immunity at level 4
15% Cold Immunity at level 8
2% concealment

Rage:
+4 STR, +2 CON, -2 AC, 10% concealment, Immunity: Death



The Uniter

The legend of the one who will unite all the tribes into an unstoppable army to sweep all over Faerun is understandably a compelling one for most barbarian tribes, who shed more blood warring against each other than any outsider. While only a handful of people in history have ever actually managed to unite the tribes, many clan believe they have the next chosen one in their midst after consulting their wise women's augurs (who more often than not, simply tell the chieftains what they wish to hear), and train a child in the ways of leadership, promising them a place in history.

+3 bluff, persuade at level 1
+3 taunt, +1 AC vs. piercing at level 3
+1 AC vs. slashing at level 6

Rage:
-2 AC, +2 Will. Add Charisma modifer to STR/CON to all party members.

Charisma modifer capped to:
Level 1 : +2
Level 5 : +4
Level 10: Uncapped

[kittenblackfriends]

That's from City of Arabel, where I also sorta stole my ideas from I never got to play the classes because the main programmer for them disappeared and left them buggy.

[Shadofury]

yes i played there years ago, and just got fed up at all the limitations they imposed. However some of these ideas might give our kick Snuggybear dev team some food for their wonderful skills

[Broken Hopes Shattered Dreams]

The way I see barbs on the server is as follows. Before this update came along there weren't any. There may have been a few low level totem barbs who got the dual ragers to help leveling a meleer through the low levels. But now they're actually a viable option for people to play and we even have barbs with more than just a few dipped levels. Grease slows a barb down, called shot leg slows a barb down, Imp Expertise wait out the barbs rage, TS wait out the barbs rage, invis wait out the barbs rage. Sure there are counters to nearly all of those options but that's the idea. The only time my 30 fighter ever had a problem fighting a barb was when he fought a barb with PM levels who also brought a dracolich and epic mage armor to the party.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

I think a cool path for barbarians would be something similar to a warlock. They get "pacted" to spirits.

Then when they rage, their rage gets augmented by what current spirit they have on-hand. They can then change the spirit type via some kind of -tool.

Deer to move faster, bear to be tougher, wolf to be more cunning, etc. etc. The real roots of a barbarian is a tribal warrior. More mechanics that enhance that aspect would be cool.