Harper Song curing Lycanthropy

[Lorkas]

I'm not sure I buy the argument that there isn't a counter anyway. You can go get lycanthropy again. Honestly, that's exactly the same counter you might have to getting voted out of office if you're a politician: go get elected again.

It's far less work, in fact, to get lycanthropy again than it is to RP as a councillor and gather support to keep your position of power. You don't need anyone's support to become a lycan again--you can just go adventuring in FoD or any other place with a were-spawn.

I've caught it accidentally when I didn't want it far more often than I've ever heard any bard sing on this server, much less a Master Harper bard.

[Trunx]

I'm not sure I buy the argument that there isn't a counter anyway. You can go get lycanthropy again. Honestly, that's exactly the same counter you might have to getting voted out of office if you're a politician: go get elected again.

It's far less work, in fact, to get lycanthropy again than it is to RP as a councillor and gather support to keep your position of power. You don't need anyone's support to become a lycan again--you can just go adventuring in FoD or any other place with a were-spawn.

I've caught it accidentally when I didn't want it far more often than I've ever heard any bard sing on this server, much less a Master Harper bard.

Being able to do/achieve something again is not a counter. The counter to someone trying to vote you out is to get enough votes to not be voted out.

[Flameborn]

I'm not sure I buy the argument that there isn't a counter anyway. You can go get lycanthropy again. Honestly, that's exactly the same counter you might have to getting voted out of office if you're a politician: go get elected again.

It's far less work, in fact, to get lycanthropy again than it is to RP as a councillor and gather support to keep your position of power. You don't need anyone's support to become a lycan again--you can just go adventuring in FoD or any other place with a were-spawn.

I've caught it accidentally when I didn't want it far more often than I've ever heard any bard sing on this server, much less a Master Harper bard.

So, lets shoe on the other foot this. If a lycan was able to do a roar a bunch of times per day with no rp and no save, that instantly took away your bardsong ability, but you were able to go through a process that was both a real danger to your character, and could take real life hours (I did it for 6 solid hours and didnt get it once) and thats your idea of a counter?

[Yma23]

You have a good point Trunx. In my defence- I was more responding to iceborn, who's suggestion would make it entirely and utterly impossible to ever be cured if the player didn't want it so.

I actually entirely agree that the situation should be more interactive. Maybe it should be a bit easier to avoid, (say... a saving throw? That might work) But at the same time I don't think it should neccesarly be entirely in the hands of the Lycan oocly to decide if they're cured or not. Don't get me wrong - previously that's basicaly been the case and I've had no problems with it. But I don't see the problem with there /being/ a way to cure a lycan, even against player consent. Though I see no issue with making it more interactive.


For me the main 'tradgedy' of the situation above (if you'll forgive the phrase) Isn't just that a the character got cured against the players will... but that the Harper involved didn't seem to activly want to cure him either!

I think making it an item that needs to be activly used on someone to cure them would be a good step.

If you need more interaction- maybe it can only be used on the corpse of a Lycan?

[Trunx]

I don't think a saving throw would necessarily be a good idea, because that'd screw over characters in the other direction -- it'd reveal who the Harpers are. Maybe if it's a hidden saving throw, if that's possible?

Although I don't entirely see the point of mechanically forced cure. The person you cure can just go out and get infected again, if they were cured against their will.

[Yma23]

A good point. But I actualy just thind changing it to an item, and letting other sorts of characters have access to that item is a better idea. Just because we've seen already how the information can be metagamed to discover who harpers are.

Now I want to stress, I'm not ratting on susitsu here. He/She seems like a cool rper and I'm sure they'll be cool with whatever they do.

But the point is the player was easily able to tell whom had cured them and what that meant. Now yeah, the player in this case is cool and isn't going to metagame it or anything. Brill. But in other cases it might not be that way. And given how much the Devs/DM's have hammered down how Harpers really need to be secret, this is a major flaw.

And this wasn't a slip up of the harper even, it was just a bit of bad luck. So- as I said, the cure needs to be something available to other folks too (but with some more difficulty perhaps) and/or there some how needs to be more 'sublty' and certainly more 'intent' behind it.

[Lorkas]

So, lets shoe on the other foot this. If a lycan was able to do a roar a bunch of times per day with no rp and no save, that instantly took away your bardsong ability, but you were able to go through a process that was both a real danger to your character, and could take real life hours (I did it for 6 solid hours and didnt get it once) and thats your idea of a counter?

In comparison with some of the other things on that list, "a few hours" is relatively little work. It takes a lot more time than that to gather support to remain in power as a councillor, at least in some cases.

And in any case, the comparison is a bad one: lycanthropy isn't a class feature like bard song is. The lycanthrope still gets all of their class features plus this extra thing on top of it.

The fact of the matter is, almost nothing about lycanthropy is under the PC's direct control. Personally I don't understand why it's outrageous that there should be a way for a PC to lose lycanthropy without wanting to, when people get lycanthropy all the time when they don't want to, and the RP that comes from curing it is stale after many, many times. I mean, I have a character who has never set foot inside the FoD, and that character has caught lycanthropy many times. It's at least as jarring and RP-breaking to catch lycanthropy unexpectedly in ways that don't make sense (I don't know how you can simultaneously not get even a single scratch in a battle, yet also get a "nasty scratch") as it is to have it cured in an unexpected way.

I am not really opposed to there being something that the lycanthrope to work for to maintain lycanthropy through a master harper song, but it shouldn't be just a switch toggled. Maybe some kind of ritual that can be performed, and as long as the ritual has been performed within the last X full moons, you can't be cured by a MH or even by someone shoving wolfsbane down your throat.

At the same time though, there should be something added to make people avoid getting the curse, as long as they have prepared the proper protections. That's a way bigger and more widespread problem than Master Harpers are to lycans-by-choice.

[Iceborn]

I'm just going to quote Septire here, because, despite the massive merry-go-round of nonsense that has been this thread from the almost the start, he nailed it.

So, what's the fix? Is one needed here? I'd say... probably yes. I agree that a player should roll with the punches and use the opportunity to RP a different way, but I feel it's just too easy to remove lycanthropy which can (and often does, for players choosing to embrace it) integrate with the identity of their character. If there was a spell that would shift someone's alignment to another alignment, or permanently change them from one race to another without a save or without consent, some players would be pretty outraged because it would obliterate their expectations of what their character should be.

Therefore, considering that it isn't getting any better with the redundant opinions;

[With The Sky Below My Feet]

Except that it doesn't do anything to change your character. If a person's deluded enough to embrace lycantrophy, they'll just get another fix after being cured. Nothing changes permanently. And how often do lycans hang out in the vicinity of harpers long enough for this to be a permanent problem? If you want your lycans to farm with some harpers now and then, perhaps you can also bear with this minor annoyance it brings.

This discussion should rather be about that harpers should be able to choose if they want to do it or not, because as it stands, it's an instant spoiler.

Actual suggestion: Enable characters to toggle the lycantrophy cure.

Based on the argumentation presented here I'll go make a thread now.

Help. People removed some of my character's HP without my consent. It's not what I expect my character to be.

[CocoHaram]

Except that it doesn't do anything to change your character. If a person's deluded enough to embrace lycantrophy, they'll just get another fix after being cured. Nothing changes permanently. And how often do lycans hang out in the vicinity of harpers long enough for this to be a permanent problem? If you want your lycans to farm with some harpers now and then, perhaps you can also bear with this minor annoyance it brings.

This discussion should rather be about that harpers should be able to choose if they want to do it or not, because as it stands, it's an instant spoiler.

Actual suggestion: Enable characters to toggle the lycantrophy cure.

Based on the argumentation presented here I'll go make a thread now.

Help. People removed some of my character's HP without my consent. It's not what I expect my character to be.

I'm just going to comment on how presumptuous and condescending that is and comes off as. Someone can OOCly like the RP that Lycanthropy brings without their character being a madman.

Terribly sorry that how special and secret the dire roleplay the Harpers bring to the server could be compromised by an odd mechanic that really doesn't need to function the way it does.

[Trunx]

Help. People removed some of my character's HP without my consent. It's not what I expect my character to be.

Horrible analogy. No similarities whatsoever to the Bard Song/Lycanthropy thing.

[With The Sky Below My Feet]

I'm just going to comment on how presumptuous and condescending that is and comes off as.

Barely my intention. Sorry.

Someone can OOCly like the RP that Lycanthropy brings

Yes! And that's good.

without their character being a madman.

No, or only under some obscure forced moral dilemma construct.

Busting page-long over the top srs bsns with horrible analogies, should probably stop that.

[Durvayas]

A suggestion... Why not take the cure for lycanthropy... and give it to the currently completely worthless Healer path?

[NotAHarperBardDuh]

I'm a little confused about how it's so obviously a bard song. If someone has enough ability to get on the forums and wiki to find out about the mechanics they have enough to know that it's a hidden prestige class.

If the worry truly is master Harper being caught add an alchemical creation that can be used to posion' wells and water sources?

That would be common knowledge and no matter how expensive commonly used

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

-deaf

Don't abuse it though, folks. If you're deaf, you're deaf!

Hardly a legitimate counter.

This is actually the de facto counter method for preserving RP based around disabilities/negatives. If you want to RP a blind character, and someone casts greater restoration on you, you can say it didn't work because WYSIWYG, and you can re-apply the -blind status.

Master Harpers presently have a class ability that lets their bard song cure lycanthropy. The counter to this cure that you don't want is the -deaf ability, which prevents it from curing you and and enforces WYSIWYG.

I'd be fine with the Harper's being able to toggle the lycanthropy cure on and off, as I do think the magical effect should be one the Harper is aware of, like every other bardic music magical effect- choice and intent come into it before it becomes a magical song as opposed to a perform check for gold.


I do not agree that any character can want to remain a werewolf without being considered to be the victim of some sort of mental/emotional/psychological damage, or being under the influence of some magical curse. I would argue that claiming a character is sane or moral under those conditions would be similar to arguing that someone who wants to have AIDS and risk spreading it three nights out of every month is sane (and let's be real folks, unlike people who have AIDS, werewolves can't just choose to keep it in their pants, so the werewolf issues is worse).

Without reaching for some ridiculously contrived or outlandish logic that makes no sense from a perspective of survival or caring for your impact on the world around you, the argument isn't even remotely feasible.

In this world, werewolves are evil. By lore, becoming a werewolf forcefully changes your alignment to evil the very first time you shift voluntarily (because D&D is a world where the ends do NOT justify the means). There is no choice involved once that choice is made.

So every character that treats a willing werewolf like a raving lunatic (see what I did there? ) or an evil scumbag isn't just being a jerk- they're simply reacting to the character's choice to remain under the influence of a highly feared, evil curse.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

Am I the only one still saying "why the duck does bard song even cure lycanthropy"?

[NotAHarperBardDuh]

Am I the only one still saying "why the duck does bard song even cure lycanthropy"?

Why does a herb- only when FRESHLY picked?

[Emotionaloverload]

Am I the only one still saying "why the duck does bard song even cure lycanthropy"?

Why does a herb- only when FRESHLY picked?

From a botany perspective, herbs (and pretty much all fruits or flowers) start to lose their effect potency when picked unless properly prepared (and even then dried herbs have a shelf life). It is not a leap to assume that a herb that can cure a magical disease (for a single use) has a rapid deterioration rate because its effect is so considerable.


-S

[Dalenger]

Am I the only one still saying "why the duck does bard song even cure lycanthropy"?

Why does a herb- only when FRESHLY picked?

From a botany perspective, herbs (and pretty much all fruits or flowers) start to lose their effect potency when picked unless properly prepared (and even then dried herbs have a shelf life). It is not a leap to assume that a herb that can cure a magical disease (for a single use) has a rapid deterioration rate because its effect is so considerable.


-S

tl;dr
Magic

[Trunx]

So every character that treats a willing werewolf like a raving lunatic (see what I did there? ) or an evil scumbag isn't just being a jerk- they're simply reacting to the character's choice to remain under the influence of a highly feared, evil curse.

But once again, there is nothing wrong with characters treating it like that. No one is saying that. No one has said that. What people have suggested is a problem is that the mechanic is not a hostile action and there is no save and no agreement on the part of the werewolf, which is the case when it comes to other saveless features. You can be walking down the street in Cordor, and suddenly randomly no longer have lycanthropy because someone decided to roleplay singing. There's no other comparable mechanic to that.

[Yma23]

"why the duck does bard song even cure lycanthropy"?

Because music sooths the savage beast?

Seriously - I kinda get the mythos reason for it (think Orpheus soothing Cyberus with his lyre) and it's a neat ability and all - but if it were removed from Harpers and replaced with something else, I wouldn't cry.

[Dalenger]

If we were go nerf this, I would suggest making it a timed thing. Say, it removes the lycantropy for 24-48 rl hours, and pulls anyone currently in their lycan form out of it.

Perhaps the counteract this nerf, give the harper another mechanical cookie. Say, harper levels count for double or triple when calculating bard song.

Though, for above stated reasons, I think that the song should be able to out-right remove the curse. But I too wouldn't cry if it were removed.

[Trunx]

If we were go nerf this, I would suggest making it a timed thing. Say, it removes the lycantropy for 24-48 rl hours, and pulls anyone currently in their lycan form out of it.

Perhaps the counteract this nerf, give the harper another mechanical cookie. Say, harper levels count for double or triple when calculating bard song.

Though, for above stated reasons, I think that the song should be able to out-right remove the curse. But I too wouldn't cry if it were removed.

That sounds great, and would make more sense. Not being able to turn for a while after hearing the song.

But I don't see why Harpers would need a massive mechanical boost in return. It's not like there'd be a major difference between what you suggest and how it currently is, from the viewpoint of the Harper. And it's not really a mechanical cookie to begin with.

[Dalenger]

If we were go nerf this, I would suggest making it a timed thing. Say, it removes the lycantropy for 24-48 rl hours, and pulls anyone currently in their lycan form out of it.

Perhaps the counteract this nerf, give the harper another mechanical cookie. Say, harper levels count for double or triple when calculating bard song.

Though, for above stated reasons, I think that the song should be able to out-right remove the curse. But I too wouldn't cry if it were removed.

That sounds great, and would make more sense. Not being able to turn for a while after hearing the song.

But I don't see why Harpers would need a massive mechanical boost in return. It's not like there'd be a major difference between what you suggest and how it currently is, from the viewpoint of the Harper. And it's not really a mechanical cookie to begin with.

Nah, I kinda added in that last bit because, of all the new harpers, master harper is the most... "meh" one (from a purely mechanical perspective). Its only major boon is infinite song which A) is completely irrelevant after lasting inspiration and B) is the most easily recognized of Harper features (to the point where you might be afraid to sing a ton purely because you'll be found out).

But I digress. This isn't really what the thread is supposed to be about.

[Razmo_de]

I think the OP has a point.
I basically see two problems with it.
1. Poor targeting.
You can randomly cure people without intending to.

2. RP it.
An ability to cure people from lycanthropy against their will is okay; In my opinion it is an ability that needs to be RP'ed out though. You basically have to give away that you are a good aligned werewolf-healer, if you force it on other players without their IC/OOC consent. For me that is subsumed under RP before PVP.