Thieves guildes - looking for insights

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Winter83
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Thieves guildes - looking for insights

Post by Winter83 » Wed Oct 08, 2014 12:50 pm

Without spoilers and character names given out, I'd like to ask players who had been involved in "Thieves-guild" like organizations to drop me a PM.

I am looking for insights, experience with such groups, what is and what is not possible.

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Re: Thieves guildes - looking for insights

Post by The Rambling Midget » Wed Oct 08, 2014 5:12 pm

  • Recruit, recruit, recruit.
  • Don't be afraid to take risks.
  • You WILL be discovered; plan for that instead of trying to keep everything a secret.
  • Information is more valuable than gold, especially when it helps you to find new recruits.
  • Hide in plain sight; social skills, connections, and legitimate cover are more effective than stealth.
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Re: Thieves guildes - looking for insights

Post by DestroyerOTN » Wed Oct 08, 2014 9:28 pm

Secret operative of experience reporting for duty! Message me if you care for my insights, aye?
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Re: Thieves guildes - looking for insights

Post by Drake Strongfist » Thu Oct 09, 2014 3:08 am

Take everything with a grain of salt. YOU WILL BE META'D. It will happen often, it will be painful...otherwise its a blast.

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Re: Thieves guildes - looking for insights

Post by The Rambling Midget » Thu Oct 09, 2014 3:16 am

Drake Strongfist wrote:YOU WILL BE META'D.
Yeah. I was going to say this, but I didn't want to start up an argument, but it's true.

The same as being discovered IC, prepare yourself for it, and don't let it slow you down. You can always make a comeback.
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Re: Thieves guildes - looking for insights

Post by Rystefn » Thu Oct 09, 2014 7:37 am

Make the inevitable discovery something awesome. Plan a big thing to do when it comes (and keep revising the plan so it makes sense no matter when or how it happens as much as you can, and have a few variations, too). Then laugh and laugh and laugh when it happens because it was part of your plan all along. You fools played right into my hands. I knew I could count on you [whoever] to blunder along and do this for me.
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Re: Thieves guildes - looking for insights

Post by Winter83 » Thu Oct 09, 2014 11:59 am

I've been having a few exchange of PMs and the more I think about it the more I feel a classical
Thieve's guild is -very- difficult to maintain for a long time only by players. Due to the secretive nature and general lack of "non violent criminal activity".

It might benefit from a module setup.I know it not matching the Module's ideals, which is more about motivating players to create their own stuff.

When I say "module setup", I mean something built into the module assisting thematic concepts working together. Like to have a thieve's guild being an integrated part of Cordor. Something which is there, everyone know there's one, not all knows the exact where and whom. Semi-secret like.
Something like Sencliff & Naval combat which very nicely provides the tools for Pirate themes.


But it feels like lacking tools, or something I cant quite grasp yet to make similar Themes more viable.

Most of the classic guild activities are not so easily implemented currently in the module. The following challenges I see:


Things like these require "banned goods", which the organized crime can provide.
- Black market (No illegit goods)
- Running brothels/gambling dens, etc (Brothels though a big part of even PG13 game worlds, they are not for PCs. Only for props. Gambling: We have the dice table only)
- Smuggling (No illegit goods)
- Fencing stolen goods. (Inventory can hold tons of items, not really viable, or necessary. Might go with the Black market)
- Ilegit breweries (You can get booze everywhere. Breweries are not monopolized, there are no licenses in the hands of certain groups, etc.)


Other classical operations are limited by the game engine.
- Protection money (Player merchants usually are powerful not to care about things like that.)
- Heists, burglaries (Quarter locks, nuff said)

Now, Thieves guilds are themes for large cities. Arelith is a small island. How you think this Theme can fit in, it if can at all?

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Re: Thieves guildes - looking for insights

Post by The Man of the Moon » Thu Oct 09, 2014 2:16 pm

Winter83 wrote:I've been having a few exchange of PMs and the more I think about it the more I feel a classical
Thieve's guild is -very- difficult to maintain for a long time only by players. Due to the secretive nature and general lack of "non violent criminal activity".

...

Now, Thieves guilds are themes for large cities. Arelith is a small island. How you think this Theme can fit in, it if can at all?
The island might shelter perfectly one or two thieves guilds (if they were two, the island being distributed in two, probably, by some competition for dominating the frontier zones)

The Crow Nes't could be a perfect place to locate a base... While Cordor is also perfect, double perfect, triple perfect.

If Arelith were a real place, I am pretty sure there could be at least a crime organization working at 100% and developing a Black Market between the Underdark and the Surface, among many other duties!
Disclaimer: All what I write are simple opinions of a player and always with honest intention to contribute constructively and from respect, but with a poor knowledge of English.

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Re: Thieves guildes - looking for insights

Post by Winter83 » Thu Oct 09, 2014 2:40 pm

Question is, what's the added value of blackmarket. Blackmarket's about buying/selling things which are

1, Banned and illegal, contraband
2, Undercutting the market prices mainly because they are stolen, cheaply acquired. (Now slave labor -can- create cheap mass of items, if slavery and slave-labour were a reliable source of wares) - Might be a nice idea to RP.

One thing comes to my mind where the black market would be viable:
- Necromantic articles
- Slaves

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Re: Thieves guildes - looking for insights

Post by The Man of the Moon » Thu Oct 09, 2014 4:02 pm

Well... a black market in Arelith should allow trade between outcasters, underdarkers and "criminal" surfacers...

Also, don't forget one of the main advantages of Black markets... to get rid on stolen things (that cannot be sold in standard shops)

Then, there could also be dark alliances between Thieves/assassins Guilds and Underdarkers Societies...

but, I think this should be brought through RP and if consolidated IG, then maybe get suported with Build additions of a phisical market with shops that those Thievering guilds could own and use for that black market in some hiden location only open for those with sneak abilities or allegiance to the said guild

Perhaps, just a idea.
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Re: Thieves guildes - looking for insights

Post by Razmo_de » Thu Oct 09, 2014 4:32 pm

Winter83 wrote:2, Undercutting the market prices mainly because they are stolen, cheaply acquired. (Now slave labor -can- create cheap mass of items, if slavery and slave-labour were a reliable source of wares) - Might be a nice idea to RP.
Steal stuff from quarters/people and sell it on your blackmarket.
A chance for them to get their lovely whatever back.
No one will bust that market since else, they can't get their stuff back.

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Re: Thieves guildes - looking for insights

Post by The Rambling Midget » Thu Oct 09, 2014 4:57 pm

A black market sells things that are illegal. That's probably not going to be viable here, because nothing worth buying is illegal, and even if you do it with stolen goods, there's no way to differentiate between stolen and legitimately procured, unless it's a custom item.

Stealing gold and items to sell can be your bread and butter, but I don't think that it will be enough to build an entire guild around.

Really, the best thing you can steal around here is a secret. Use stealth and infiltration to get into places where you shouldn't be, find information that someone doesn't want getting out, and then extort money from your targets to keep their secrets. The faction system allows you to create a bank account for gold drops without attaching your character's name to it.

One of the big killers for a clandestine guild is a quarter sign. Anyone can walk up, read the sign, and say, "Oh, this is the name of a known criminal. Evict!" or "Aha! This is where messages are being dropped for Le Criminal Organization. The owner must be a criminal. Exile!" Create dead drops for communication, rather than using a clubhouse. I've used message boards for remote message delivery to great effect. In fact, one of my drop points from a previous character is still in place after three RL years, having not been discovered.
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Re: Thieves guildes - looking for insights

Post by DM Watchtower » Thu Oct 09, 2014 5:07 pm

Food for thought - what does the server need in order for a traditional thieve's guild to thrive?

I'm referring to a classic, Elder Scrolls-style den of criminals, not the high-concept, high-profile villains that are typical of Arelith. Imagine the Thieve's Guild in Skyrim - what would it take for that to work on Arelith?

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Re: Thieves guildes - looking for insights

Post by Daedin » Thu Oct 09, 2014 6:07 pm

Way (waaaaay) back when I first started playing, there was a healthy ammount of thieves/criminal/spy guilds and factions. And the mouse-and-cat games that ensued from that were one of the most enjoyable things I ever experienced on Arelith. The ammount of infiltrations and double crossings and double(triple, quadruple) agents alone was hilarious and a lot of fun at the same time.

And this was at a time when the maximum server population possible was 50. Perhaps even less in the very first month I started playing. And we had way less tools than there are now, and the quality of roleplay today is thousands of lightyears better than it was back then.

The folk above me already gave the best possible tips and suggestions, but I will just add this:

-Stick to the theme, to the concept, to the idea of what you want to achieve. If it is a thieves guild you want, it is to that concept you need to cling to with claws of steel. Why? So that when people think and ask, both oocly and icly "Hey, what about a Thieves Guild on Arelith?" , the majority of the active players and community members will immediatly think of your work and say: "Hey, that dude ran/is running a pretty awesome thieves guild!"

Why this suggestion in particular? Because, and again, waaaay back in those first days, a lot of the guilds and sub-guilds disapeared and got fragmented or assimilated into other factions, because they began wanting to be things other than what they said they were.

This is not a bad thing. It is a rather organic process,even. But for someone wanting to start something new? Stick to the concept, or else your thieves guild will fast become the Thieves-guild-which-is-friends-with-everyone-and-everyone-is-married-with-each-other-and-no-one-actualy-steals-things. Or something along those lines.


So...yeah! My brilliant advice is: stick to the concept.

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Re: Thieves guildes - looking for insights

Post by Hunter548 » Thu Oct 09, 2014 8:46 pm

DM Watchtower wrote:Food for thought - what does the server need in order for a traditional thieve's guild to thrive?

I'm referring to a classic, Elder Scrolls-style den of criminals, not the high-concept, high-profile villains that are typical of Arelith. Imagine the Thieve's Guild in Skyrim - what would it take for that to work on Arelith?
A reason to steal.

Why do people steal in real life, or in video games? Because it's a a quick way to get sizable amounts of coin for less effort than it takes otherwise.

On Arelith, stealing is an incredibly bad way to make money unless you get lucky enough to steal a stack of gems. It's also super risky to pick-pocket players because of blade orbs and the Arelithian response to a pickpocket being evisceration.

Stealing is so inefficient from a risk/reward standpoint, compared to farming, appraise-running, crafting or whatever, that there's no reason to steal. Conversely, if you make theft profitable, more people will play thieves.
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Re: Thieves guildes - looking for insights

Post by The Rambling Midget » Thu Oct 09, 2014 9:09 pm

DM Watchtower wrote:Food for thought - what does the server need in order for a traditional thieve's guild to thrive?
Poverty and desperation. Most thieves do what they do, not because they want a life of adventure and excitement, but because they're hungry. In a society with laws, which maintains constabularies, thievery doesn't become an attractive profession until the only other option is death, or a lifestyle so undesirable that death is preferable.

Since poverty is nearly impossible to achieve on Arelith, (unless you get really creative) it's not worth stealing unless you're going to make at least a few tens of thousands from every job.
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Re: Thieves guildes - looking for insights

Post by Daedin » Thu Oct 09, 2014 9:27 pm

The way I have seen most thieves' players handle the problem that both the Magnificent Midget and Hunter40000 have mentioned, is to shift their targets.

Since money in and of itself has little value on Arelith, since everyone only needs to stab things and search their coin bag and special gem-producing second stomach in order to get rich, thieves have typicaly gone to the things that actualy have value to the characters and players, the things produced and bought with said coin.

And from my personal experience playing a spy and an actual thief, those things tend to be either crafted items, artifacts with roleplay value, or just informantion.

Which can make for some very fun and successful thief roleplay and interactions for everyone involved. The problem there is, the thief gets rich fast. I remember making 25thousand coin in one go as my character and kash's Ran sold some artifact they had stolen.

The problem there,then, is to find motivations for your character to continue stealing,when they dont really need it anymore. Which is what often leads to what I had mentiuoned in my previous post: people straying away from their concept, simply because they need to find interesting things to do with their characters.

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Re: Thieves guildes - looking for insights

Post by Anime Sword Fighter » Thu Oct 09, 2014 9:47 pm

Thing to maybe do:
Boost stealth up as high as possible
Be a stealer of info

Write down everything, give it out to buyers

Sneak in behind people in quarters (make sure you've got a way to escape- clerics, bat druids, mages really are your bane ) always be prepared for being discovered

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Re: Thieves guildes - looking for insights

Post by Winter83 » Thu Oct 09, 2014 10:04 pm

You make a strong point here TRM. Thievery at the moment is not quite a lucratice occupation, unless you do it for the sake of Theme and concept.

Now in a world where poverty is nonexistant other forms of thievery can sprout iő. The island is full of "rich" people, which should be a paradise for free entrepreneurs who are sick of blood, and rather use wits than blade.

Possible options are heists. Big-time planned burglaries.
But.
Eventually the questing thieves will stumble upon the godly quarter doors installed in every rundown tavern.

Which is understandable as many players became irritated with the abuse of their good will keeping a low lock DC.


May I add, the absence of non-violent crime, is also keeping the other side of the coin left on the drawing tables. Investigator Concepts. Arelith NCIS.

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Re: Thieves guildes - looking for insights

Post by High Primate » Thu Oct 09, 2014 10:21 pm

DM Watchtower wrote:Food for thought - what does the server need in order for a traditional thieve's guild to thrive?

I'm referring to a classic, Elder Scrolls-style den of criminals, not the high-concept, high-profile villains that are typical of Arelith. Imagine the Thieve's Guild in Skyrim - what would it take for that to work on Arelith?
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Re: Thieves guildes - looking for insights

Post by Winter83 » Thu Oct 09, 2014 10:39 pm

Sykrim inspiration:

-mark : A command, which sets a mark by/on a door which can be activated by a different player increasing his lockpicking skill with the ammount of the marking rogue's lockpicking skill. The mark remains for a set of time then dissipates.

Encurage thief-troupes working together, no overpowered. Can be deleted when found through search. Can be tracked down by investigate maybe.

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Re: Thieves guildes - looking for insights

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Fri Oct 10, 2014 12:09 am

Theft of information I would agree is more important than the theft of physical goods.

wizards with -scry, Weave Masters spamming you with Improv Invis, thieves with bloated bluff scores, a ranger with the craziest hide - these sorts of characters. Traditional Skyrim thieves as 'characters' I don't think we should. Many mechanics that would actually help a thieves' guild are outside the more stereotypical context.

I also think a successful Thieves' Guild needs a really good opposition. And this is a problem with Arelith, because you don't really have that. Factions that are based around active conflict (rather than passive conflict) require your opponents to want to foil your plans as much as you want to enact them.

That might be a bit of philosophical overhead, but it's something I've encountered, and Daedin sort of touched on it - you need people invested in the narrative. A Thieves' Guild won't be as badass as it could be, if there weren't factions that oppose you.

Some of the best heroes and villains on Arelith were allowed to be called the best, because often they had very successful and gracious (but perhaps less unheard of) opponents. Not always the case, but I'd like to think often enough.
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Re: Thieves guildes - looking for insights

Post by Winter83 » Fri Oct 10, 2014 6:42 am

Winter83 wrote:
May I add, the absence of non-violent crime, is also keeping the other side of the coin left on the drawing tables. Investigator Concepts. Arelith NCIS.

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Re: Thieves guildes - looking for insights

Post by Winter83 » Fri Oct 10, 2014 7:10 am

Winter83 wrote:May I add, the absence of non-violent crime, is also keeping the other side of the coin left on the drawing tables. Investigator Concepts. Arelith NCIS.
I know its a poor practice to quote from oneself, but there it goes. I agree on the notion that a good roleplay forms around active conflict. A guild of thieves how I see, pretty much generates a -lot- of conflict. Even more than your avarage Trage guilds. Especially when they leave calling cards on the scene of the heist.

Once the force is present a counterforce appears. The appearence of Smart-crime will likely spawn investigators, more job for counter-agencies, eventually can bring a whole Secret-agent feel to the server, trying to infiltrate secret organizations,stealing plans etc.


As for motivation Daedin mentioned, I see that the least of the concerns. There are thieves of necessity and thieves of creed. The later are a more fitting theme to Arelith, the world of rich and powerful.
Thrill seeking bravos, with a burning desire to outsmart others. Doing this in non-violent ways.

Coins for a job well done is the measure of applaud. Does not matter you are already sitting on a pile of treasure rivaling a dragon's hoard, you will always enjoy appreciation. This stands for a lot of "entreprenaur" concepts.
Reading the comments I realized, the setting is simply not favorable for thieves of Necessity.

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Re: Thieves guildes - looking for insights

Post by Marsi » Fri Oct 10, 2014 8:46 am

The success of a thieves guild depends also on the guards. It's all timing.

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