Forum Changes (@ UGrabMyDrumstick)

[The Rambling Midget]

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=640

Since we can't discuss in the Suggestion Box, I'll put this here.

Suggestion:
The Suggestion Box is opened to replies, again. Suggestions can be discussed by the community and modified by the original poster. When a suggestion is ready for submission, the OP puts the finalized version in the first post and hits a special button which locks the thread and marks it as ready for review, so that it can be easily picked out by the Devs. Finalize dialogue comes with a warning that the thread will be locked and a reminder to put the full suggestion in the first post. Don't want input? Finalize it immediately.

Discuss away!

[Ecstatic]

The most valuable thing this would do, I think, is let people flag down how much they would like brainstorming on their suggestions. If you would rather not go to the community for input, you can lock out the input on the thread, and you can likewise shut down the thread once everything of value has been said. The underlying assumption is a good one, I think: community input, when constructive, will yield better suggestions overall, but there needs to be a shut off point.

That said, a subforum for "Suggestions Under Construction" would help to separate these from both finished suggestions, as well as from the lighter fare that tends to make up the OOC forum.

I would probably spend quite a lot of time going over unfinished suggestions, both because I enjoy the sorts of discussions that go on there, and because these are the discussions where politely-expressed ideas offer the most benefit, and name-calling does the most to detract from thread purpose.

[dragoneyeIIVX]

My original suggestion was to split up the Discussion and Submission sides, but honestly I can understand Mith's point. Being completely frank, 90% of the discussion that happens in the box is completely useless commentary that boils down to "I like/don't like this" and a giant argument about preference, absurdly theoretical situations, and/or mechanics that most people don't properly understand.

I can see why it's gone, and I'm kind of glad for it. Arelith has a history of people that get fixated on the game's mechanics, and it's caused no-too-few issues among players. That creative energy would probably be better spent IG.

However, the general discussion is a bit of a hot mess right now. Ideally, people just discuss suggestions in the Arelith Chat (what's the link to that anyway? The IRC is empty), or amongst themselves, rather than on the forums... but it looks like the conversations just bleed across everywhere ELSE on the forum, which isn't ideal.

If a new place to discuss ideas does go up, making it a subforum on the discussion box might be the way to go. That way Devs, and anyone else who doesn't want to get involved in that shitstorm, doesn't have to see it, but the ideas are still there to get feedback on.

But, really, if you want to find a solution to a problem, figure out a way to have a discussion about a suggestion that doesn't end in one of two thread types:

- Petty arguments
- Too-complex ideas

If we can figure out how to get rid of that side of things, we might have a good alternative. Until then, I won't fault them for keeping it locked down.

[The Rambling Midget]

Ideally, people just discuss suggestions in the Arelith Chat (what's the link to that anyway? The IRC is empty), or amongst themselves, rather than on the forums... but it looks like the conversations just bleed across everywhere ELSE on the forum, which isn't ideal.

http://webchat.freenode.net/
#arelith

But, really, if you want to find a solution to a problem, figure out a way to have a discussion about a suggestion that doesn't end in one of two thread types:

- Petty arguments
- Too-complex ideas

If we can figure out how to get rid of that side of things, we might have a good alternative. Until then, I won't fault them for keeping it locked down.

Someone could start handing out straight jackets, again...
You know you want to.

I do genuinely believe that there would be more courteous and productive discussion, if everyone knew that the OP could, on a whim, say, "Okay. This discussion has gone as far as it's going to. Here's the finalized version, and locked."

---

Whenever I put together a suggestion, there are usually a few people who I run it by, to make sure it isn't completely bonkers, but I do sometimes like to open it up to the forums to get a general sense of how people feel about the underlying issue. Also the Shakespeare monkeys. You never know when someone might improve the suggestion purely by happenstance.

Ideally, I would have the ability to moderate my own thread, to ensure that it stays on track, but if everyone could do that, it would be a whole other can of worms.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

Is the Suggestion Box even a valuable part of the forum?

Let's be real. The most "beneficial" parts of the forum are Q&A and General Reference. Suggestion Box has always seen as a necessary evil that produces minimal effect.

[The Rambling Midget]

Is the Suggestion Box even a valuable part of the forum?

Yes, but its purpose is often misinterpreted.

My understanding is that Mithreas's view of suggestions is the same as Artos's view of areas. Concepts and ideas good, entire completed systems bad.

There also appears to be a belief that the staff is here to cater to the desires of the community, and that all suggestions will make it into the game eventually, once the coders find the time.

Some clearer guidelines and a general idea of what the Devs are looking for would focus suggestions and discussions and help contributors to manage their expectations. The latter part of that is what I think we need most.

I used to get attached to my suggestions and feel the need to defend them against the various morons who clearly didn't read them before replying, and now that I understand how things work, I put the message in a bottle without a return address, huck it into the ocean, and don't look back.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

I can't really name one suggestion off the top of my head that has gotten implemented. I think the Suggestion Box is worthless.

What would be more pertinent is what Mithreas has done lately and create threads of stuff he's working on and allowing us direct constructive feedback.

That's way more valuable than the over glorified Suggestion Box.

[Tashalar]

I think putting it as a sub-forum on the Suggestions Forum, much akin to the EA: Volunteers subforum on General Reference would be best. Keeps it neater, and still stops people from blathering on across other parts of the forum.
I don't mind having feedback from the community; often I forget one or two small things that tend to turn out to be vastly important, making my suggestion moot if I don't adjust for them.

Though I do partly agree with SSoS in the threads thing, how Mithreas went about it with the Warlocks looked great (though I have never and probably will never play one). It's good to have some transparency on what's actually being addressed (from time to time, not always!), rather than just a vague 'Soon'.

But people also like to feel useful, like they are contributing something to a server they love to play on. I used to play on a now-dead server, where people were practically explicitly told not to bother making any suggestions because This Is How Things Will Be. It sucked. It's discouraging.
Especially if you found a genuine facet of something you could improve upon (much like Septire and his feedback on The Beast) and you were basically just told to pike off.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

and to be fair, some of the suggestions now coming from the suggestion box, wouldn't hold with scrutiny of players let alone DEVs.

suggestion box in the past, if anything, could sort good from bad.

[Marsi]

Of the suggestions I have seen implemented, they are usually succinct and address a problem in a very, very practical manner.

[Yma23]

Speaking only from my own perspective.

It would be nice to have somewhere to put suggestions, especially somewhere open to a lot of players.

The problem as is, is that honestly I'm not always sure if something is a 'good' idea or not. And because I personally have little faith in most of my own ideas, I tend to need a bit of feedback from other people.

The problem that follows up from that is, whilst yes there is chat, it's very, very seldom used and you'rat the mercy of fate if there's anyone about, at any time, to talk about it.

Talking about it in tells In Game game be disruptive, and doing it through other chat groups like skype, isn't always ideal either. Because your 'friend groups' are just that, friends. People who are more likely to have the same perspective as you.

For example, to pick one out of thin air - I think it' dbe a nice idea to have a Slave Caller on the Cordor Server. Now let's say most of my other ig friends, who I contact IG, are playing Underdarkers (as it happens this isn't quite the case, but it very well could be) I could chat to them, and they would all probably agree with me, having played roughly the same side as me.

But if I put the suggestion on an open forum, like this, I'm more likely to get replies from people who play surfacers/goodguys/slaves who go 'noooo slaves need somewhere to hide dude!' And thus get an entirely new perspective, and work that into whatever end suggestion I give.

Finally - I kinda liked the arguments in the suggestion box. Sometimes reading up on stuff like that can give one a new perspective, new ideas, and improve later suggestions. But that's me, I love a good debate!

So, summery? I roughly like this idea. I think it'd be a good soundingboard. But finished suggestions should -always- go to the... well finished suggestions forum, so Mith and co don't have to sort the wheat from the chaff, as it were.

[Winter83]

Suggestions are kinda feedback on the current setup. Ideas coming up are distilled from gameplay.
Some -are- too complex and mayhap dont strike your fancy. But to say it's completely garbage is untrue.
I saw many ideas implemented that came from the suggestion box. Like the druids affecting the balance. Or the constant ideas on how to improve fighters. They all got in game.

Maybe likes and dislikes going on and forth, but IMHO is good for the community unless it turns toxic.
I personally love brainstorming. Chewing through ideas on the hobby I chose with alike minded individuals.
This is a community, a group of players of a dying race, who keep clutching to an old game with nails and teeth from all over the world.

Talk is part of community life. Exchange of ideas.
Discussion of suggestions are part of this community life.
I'd be a sad panda if the whole forum would be restricted to non-gamey chat and strictly pragmatical exchange of knowledge. (Questions&Answers).
Ideas are like a fresh breeze.

I understand the need of the devs too.
This is why I believe it is a good idea to have a sub-forum for flashing out ideas, discuss ideas etc. Sometimes for the sake of discussion only. And if one is crystallized and fool proof it can be moved to the right section for Dev&DM review.

I believe in knowledge of crowds.

[Mithreas]

I can't really name one suggestion off the top of my head that has gotten implemented. I think the Suggestion Box is worthless.

I'll be brutally honest - what you think doesn't matter, the audience for the suggestion box is the dev team, and we find some value in it (sometimes for ideas that are good enough to just take, but more often as inspiration that nudges something we already have in the backs of our minds). Sure, the majority of suggestions are useless to us. But there's still some value in there, and the adjusted format of the suggestion box is to allow us to get that value without everyone wasting their time in discussion.

Use the Slanty Shanty/general discussion if you want to discuss an idea. Or just post it and let us decide. Speaking personally, it's unlikely that my view on something will change based on honing the idea with a bunch of other people in a thread I haven't read; I'm really mining for concept, not detail.

As for a suggestion discussion forum, I'm negative on that because (a) I don't think suggestions are something everyone should invest a lot of time in (there are better uses of your time) and (b) we already have a forum for transient discussions in the Slanty Shanty, and the only reason we should split stuff out is if it needs to be available for reference or if we want to encourage more of it. I don't see that either of those apply here.

That said, I've given LW my blessing to do what she wishes with this, so if you all want to spin your wheels on a suggestion discussion forum, you just need to persuade her

[UGrabMyDrumstick]

I didn't really want this to turn into some grand debate about the nature of the Suggestion Box. I don't really care about the Suggestion Box. I just think The Slanty Shanty is now a cluttered and confusing mess, and there has to be a better dumping ground for all of these topics.

[Mithreas]

Do we ever need to reference back to any of them? I don't think so - which is why I'm OK with the current structure. It's a place for temporary/transient discussion, and I'd rather have all that in one place than try to create an intricate structure that people have to navigate. I suspect most of us use the Active Topics view rather than the forum navigation structure anyway...

[The Rambling Midget]

I suspect most of us use the Active Topics view rather than the forum navigation structure anyway...

I guess I'm the odd one out.