Dexterity vs Strength: Opinions/ideas.

[Astral]

I have a low epics Dexterity based fighter/rogue.

Sure, sometimes depending on the enemy he has a difficult time contributing much of anything to a fight in terms of damage when in a party. Sneak immune mobs, obviously. He's also going to get absolutely creamed if he tries going toe to toe with something for more than a few rounds.

But in my opinion that's fine, because he isn't meant to. That's not his purpose or role in combat. He can't solo anything. He shouldn't be able to, because fighting fairly on even terms or on his lonesome isn't typically what the archetype is about.

This is like saying it's unfair that a strength based weaponmaster can't scout ahead in stealth, pick numerous locks, use disguises competently, infiltrate for a covert, precise assassination or creep around the server, breathing heavily down everyone's neck in stealth.

My point exectly. Thank you.

[Rattus_norvegicus99]

I have a low epics Dexterity based fighter/rogue.

Sure, sometimes depending on the enemy he has a difficult time contributing much of anything to a fight in terms of damage when in a party. Sneak immune mobs, obviously. He's also going to get absolutely creamed if he tries going toe to toe with something for more than a few rounds.

But in my opinion that's fine, because he isn't meant to. That's not his purpose or role in combat. He can't solo anything. He shouldn't be able to, because fighting fairly on even terms or on his lonesome isn't typically what the archetype is about.

This is like saying it's unfair that a strength based weaponmaster can't scout ahead in stealth, pick numerous locks, use disguises competently, infiltrate for a covert, precise assassination or creep around the server, breathing heavily down everyone's neck in stealth.

My point exectly. Thank you.

My current dex/monk is not this way, but my former character, Martin, was exactly like this - not good at soloing at all, but super deadly when in a party, and super handy as well.

[DestroyerOTN]

a Dex based non-monk will get in the neighborhood of 49 (unbuffed and before Exp/ImpExp)...

Sorry to swoop in on a thread late; but,

28 DEX + 12 = 40 - 10 = 30 / 2 = 15 AC from the stat,
+ 10 AC base
+ 6 AC from tumble
+ 6 AC from the shield
+ 3 AC from a helmet
+ 2 AC from the outfit
+ 2 AC from Armor Skin
+ 1 AC from boots
= 44 AC

Versus

1 AC from stat
+ 10 AC base
+ 6 AC from tumble
+ 6 AC from the shield
+ 3 AC from a helmet
+ 11 AC from the outfit
+ 2 AC from Armor Skin
+ 1 AC from boots
= 41 AC

Of course, weighing unbuffed numbers doesn't really do either one justice.

Buffed, we add to each;
+ 5 for Barkskin
+ 1 for Mage Armor
+ 4 for Haste
+ 5 for Magic Vestment (+4 if STR)
+ 2 for Shield of Faith
= 17 AC, totaling 58 max for STR, and 61 max for a non-STR non-monk.

Compared against an AB of 51,
>The STR character will be hit 13/20 times, while the dex character will be hit only 10/20 (half)
>Either character may implement Improved Invisibility. The STR character will now be hit 6.5/20 times. The DEX character is now only capable of being hit 5/20
>The DEX character is capable of arbitrarily ignoring the first attack, cutting DPS and absorbing 5 of that AB artificially. Checked against the first attack that can so much as hope to connect (46 AB), the character is now fundamentally immune to Critical Hits, as well as maximizing its chances against a successful hit

Keep in mind, this is before Expertise/Imp Expertise, and due to how the feat works; I will actively argue with anyone that says that EDodge doesn't suffice to fundamentally nullify at least the first attack in a flurry.

I'd argue there 'are' reasons to take DEX. We just don't actively foster it like Amia does.


Complaining about solo leveling as a Dex-based character would be like me complaining that I can't solo as a mage without Greater Conjuration summons. It's intentional.

Mind you, I'm not saying it's a good thing, but perhaps a 'Strength vs Dexterity' thread isn't what we need - per se. No - more properly, what we need is a proper thread regarding the balance of 'Party Fun vs Party Prerequisite for Fun'; wherein we can discuss how to appropriately balance server content to be adaptable for a much smaller concentration of people at one time than most areas currently 'are' - so that more casual players, or those on at later times, aren't stuck either soloing the impossible or playing things that can solo it.

Currently, Dexterity characters shine where they're 'supposed' to - as AC based tanks. Why not just make it viable for an AC based tank to crawl through a dungeon without needing an STR to do hits for them?

[Lorkas]

The numbers that matter aren't the numbers you can get if you find a high level druid and cleric, though (or just a high level cleric with plant domain, I suppose), and also that you have a mage around to cast mage armor and haste if you want those to be up reliably. If you want to assume you're gonna have those two characters in your party, why not just assume you have a level 30 bard also? It's better to use the numbers that they can buff themselves with.

In the case that you're actually using self-buffing numbers, suddenly it isn't practical to include haste into the anaylsis unless you're using it every single battle, and same goes for mage armor, which has a super short duration from wands/scrolls/potions.

Epic dodge is far better than just nullifying 5 AB. Any analysis where you assume that's what it's doing is going to make the DEX character look weaker than they really are. A lot of the time that first hit won't connect anyway, since it has to get past your AC and your concealment (if any) before it gets to the epic dodge.

And, what's more, epic dodge allows you to do hit-and-run tactics in a way that makes sense. Attack and trade 1 flurry with the opponent--if he manages to trigger your epic dodge, take off and run around for 6 seconds, then reengage for the next round to trade the first flurry again. That alone gives you an enormous advantage--even if you need a 20 to hit your opponent, they will need 2 20s in a row to hit you--you're gonna win that fight or else they're gonna flee.

= 17 AC, totaling 58 max for STR, and 61 max for a non-STR non-monk.

Going by your numbers, it should be 57 for STR, right? STR only gets 4 from MV instead of 5.

[Maladus]

Mind you, I'm not saying it's a good thing, but perhaps a 'Strength vs Dexterity' thread isn't what we need - per se. No - more properly, what we need is a proper thread regarding the balance of 'Party Fun vs Party Prerequisite for Fun'; wherein we can discuss how to appropriately balance server content to be adaptable for a much smaller concentration of people at one time than most areas currently 'are' - so that more casual players, or those on at later times, aren't stuck either soloing the impossible or playing things that can solo it.

This. I am currently playing a Dexterity character that wears light armor and doesn't have a lot of hit die, thus the number of areas I can tackle on my own are very slim and usually way below my level so my XP isn't that great. I pretty much have to group up in order to take on content.

[DonaldTrumpsBoyfreind]

I have a low epics Dexterity based fighter/rogue.

Sure, sometimes depending on the enemy he has a difficult time contributing much of anything to a fight in terms of damage when in a party. Sneak immune mobs, obviously. He's also going to get absolutely creamed if he tries going toe to toe with something for more than a few rounds.

But in my opinion that's fine, because he isn't meant to. That's not his purpose or role in combat. He can't solo anything. He shouldn't be able to, because fighting fairly on even terms or on his lonesome isn't typically what the archetype is about.

This is like saying it's unfair that a strength based weaponmaster can't scout ahead in stealth, pick numerous locks, use disguises competently, infiltrate for a covert, precise assassination or creep around the server, breathing heavily down everyone's neck in stealth.

My point exectly. Thank you.

My current dex/monk is not this way, but my former character, Martin, was exactly like this - not good at soloing at all, but super deadly when in a party, and super handy as well.

+1

Str based, means be a smith with one art point and you can be uber-useful
Dex based means you get to sneak, sneak attack, hips, epic dodge.. I could go on..

Point is, they even out, it just depends on what you want to play.

Oh and being stealthy means you have easy access to a whole other part of the server, that others can possibly get into.. expensively.

So while strength-tank might lead the party thru most dungeons and have the most direct interactive use. Stealthier dex based means you have a whole other world of utility.

It is balanced, I know a lot people feel they're always on the shorter end of the stick but I have played both..
High str and being able to help everyone move their house worth of furniture
Or disguise/stealthiness to spy on the world.

Build based on what role play you want to be in.

Because I assure you, power builds come in both forms. Albeit the dex either had to have insane sneak attack and essence blades but they also get to open locks and such.

As for MONKS! You get SR - hide/ms - free imp Kd and cleave.. speed increase.. adding wisdom and dex to ac for gear/potions and if you go enough monk your weapons are your hands.. and you can always go to kamas for more attacks. It's Different, but can be again, just as powerful and in many different ways. All the builders I know, it feels like all they ever say is "And take six monk, just for tastiest" Going more then that gets plenty too.

So the factors are in the end...

Outright face to face damage which is easy to play and use, Str,
Utility, stealth, hips, epic dodge, and subtly role play, Dex/rogue
speed, fighting utility, survivalist, monk (and every play that stops playing a heavy monk level character tells me how hard it is to go back to walking 'slowly')

You can mix and match, it's far less effective but can be fun to role play but the truth of the matter is.. it's more about your play style then what is better.

At the end of the day whoever goes first and uses more money worth of scrolls and wands non-sparingly, tends to win.. unless you have a Horrible build. But the truth is, get known on the server a little and put up a request to build the kind of character you want to play and you normally get some pretty savvy advice. Zankas was build ideas from several people mutated with my own concepts who got completely altered at mid levels to suit where my role play was going while remaining effective. I was lucky not to have to de-level to fix the mistakes that other players were so kind to help me fix. Still almost pointless in a one on one fight, with someone of similar level.

BUT! I have a outrageous bard song that can kill goblins and hobgoblins in one hit so when I wander around traveling I can look all epic! That's enough for me.

[DestroyerOTN]

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Well, I mean; yes. There's a few mathematical errors, since I just kinda sat and did that in my head during a casual forum post.

-and yes, saying Epic Dodge nullified the first attack in a round did make it sound 'weaker' - but necessarily so - to demonstrate, rather than that that's all it will do, that it will never do anything less than force one attack to miss.

Still - as far as I can tell, you're more or less supporting me anyway. So - point.