Working on a player list.

OOC General Discussion

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Active DMs

Post Reply
DreamOfCream
Posts: 106
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2014 4:33 pm

Re: Working on a player list.

Post by DreamOfCream » Wed Nov 29, 2017 3:54 am

Wytchee wrote: That doesn't change the fact that it's a third party collecting my info without my consent.

I really don't care how useful other people find this tool. There's a myriad other tools you can use to keep up with players. I don't want to even log in if anyone can snoop me.
Technically speaking, I'm not sure the info Chiparg is collecting 'your' information, rather Arelith's information which it chooses to post publicly on the portal. Chiparg's app works no different than if there was a person taking notes of the portal all day. If you have privacy concerns, I would take it up with the Devs who manage the portal.

That said, none of this information is traceable to an individual. If you want to go incognito because of X reason? Make another login name; simple as that. Harassment should definitely be brought to the DM/Dev attention. I would like to see an opt out method, even if someone can just come along and make another app just like Chiparg's.

Cihparg
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 688
Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2014 4:32 pm
Location: Matrix, @bullish0576:mozilla.org

Re: Working on a player list.

Post by Cihparg » Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:50 am

@greatfanfare; Alrighty, that's a pretty dark monitor you got.
I'll see if there's something I can do.

@CragOrion: Probably. The data should function the same it currently is.
Once the DB side of EE is working, an API can be worked for it. I don't think that's the case yet?

@Wytchee: While the site itself is third party, the information provided on the site is fetched from Arelith's API (the original player list being here: http://portal.arelith.com/, which offers the same but without caching or other functionality).

@BegoneThoth: Caching and QoL.

@TimeAdept: The information is already public, nor does it personally recognize who the data belongs to.

@DreamOfCream has put it in decent form. This has been covered plenty of times in the past, and I do understand the concerns, even if providing an opt-out is really not going to work out that great on the current version of it.

Beep boop.


JediZero
Posts: 175
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2016 3:33 am

Re: Working on a player list.

Post by JediZero » Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:51 am

Wytchee wrote:
Cortex wrote:
Disclaimer: I am not associated with Arelith's Development Team, this is a hobby project, it is not to replace any part of content provided by Arelith itself.
That doesn't change the fact that it's a third party collecting my info without my consent.

I really don't care how useful other people find this tool. There's a myriad other tools you can use to keep up with players. I don't want to even log in if anyone can snoop me.
So I'm torn here. I agree, if someone doesn't want to be snooped on, it's their right to request such.

But you're also logging onto Arelith which logs your playtime, logs how long you've been playing, where your last position were. Because that's how a persistant world works. That's how an online server works.

In order for nobody to be able to keep a track on your activities here, you'd have to literally never log onto the server ever again. And having that much more transparency regarding the server seems like a good thing.

If ever you're being harassed or followed around by someone please, report it to the DMs. They are usually more than willing to err on the side of caution and tell someone to go away and stop bothering someone, if someone is afraid of harassment.

User avatar
BegoneThoth
Posts: 1589
Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:20 am

Re: Working on a player list.

Post by BegoneThoth » Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:09 am

I don't see why there can't be an opt-out function.
\

User avatar
Wytchee
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 875
Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2017 8:37 pm

Re: Working on a player list.

Post by Wytchee » Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:28 am

Jedi, I'm not saying that I think it should be normal to expect 100% anonymity when logging onto Arelith. I just don't want random third parties with this info. Anyone can look me up and see who, when, and how long I played. This is not the same thing as a playerlist. This is creepy.

The information isn't otherwise *readily* available to anyone who can click a hyperlink.
Current character: Abigail Duskwood

User avatar
One Two Three Five
Posts: 1139
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 7:09 am

Re: Working on a player list.

Post by One Two Three Five » Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:34 am

Yeah, it's a question of detail and easy facilitation of information gathering. Not 'oh what you do is public.'
The devil does not need any more advocates
Clerics are just socially acceptable warlocks.

User avatar
BegoneThoth
Posts: 1589
Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:20 am

Re: Working on a player list.

Post by BegoneThoth » Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:43 am

I'm not going to say it's creepy or not, just that if you're going to be making a log of my activity, I'd ask you to stop.

Arelith gets a pass because I have to give them my info to play there. I'm willingly participating in any logs they make because it's their server.

You're just some random person I have no desire to interact with. I don't want you logging my activity. Please stop logging my activity.
\

User avatar
Wytchee
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 875
Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2017 8:37 pm

Re: Working on a player list.

Post by Wytchee » Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:52 am

BegoneThoth wrote:I'm not going to say it's creepy or not, just that if you're going to be making a log of my activity, I'd ask you to stop.

Arelith gets a pass because I have to give them my info to play there. I'm willingly participating in any logs they make because it's their server.

You're just some random person I have no desire to interact with. I don't want you logging my activity. Please stop logging my activity.
Essentially this.
Current character: Abigail Duskwood

Cihparg
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 688
Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2014 4:32 pm
Location: Matrix, @bullish0576:mozilla.org

Re: Working on a player list.

Post by Cihparg » Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:03 am

Old theme is now switchable with the adjust button.

And look, I get that you don't want your character names or account names to appear, but think of it this way;
How would an opt-out feature be implemented without any form of user authentication on the site?
If we allow just anyone to pull out data from the scry window, what's that saying for anyone who'd be willing to hide every single entry from it?

That's where the technical limitation comes up.
As there's no way to identify users, there's also no way to hide their data.

To make it plausible, I'd have to verify that the user requesting the entry be hidden from the scry window is actually the user requesting it.
An alternative is for every single person who doesn't want their account visible to send me a PM personally, through the forums, to hide the username they have on the forums hidden from it.

Assuming that you're seeking anonymity, the username you have on the forums is not the same you have in game.
Nor would it contain what characters do you play.

In other words, what I'm saying, is that there is no your data that is being stored, everyone is cached the same as everyone else; anonymous, in pure data. So assuming that the forums don't expose more about you than the game does, it's unlikely that this does either.

Beep boop.


User avatar
Wytchee
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 875
Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2017 8:37 pm

Re: Working on a player list.

Post by Wytchee » Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:17 am

My position is simple. I don't want other players to be able to snoop me. I don't want third-parties to be able to snoop me. I don't want any player who might have a grudge or a desire to observe my playing habits to be able to snoop me. I don't know if you've ever been stalked or harassed online, but it's not always something a DM can swoop in and handle.

A playerlist is fine. To be able to see who's online at any given time *at that time* is obviously not a problem. It's the specific details snoopers are able to see. Not only are they able to see that I'm on... they're able to see the last time I played, when I played and for how long, not to mention a full and detailed list of all my characters on my account going back to its creation. Cihparg, if you don't understand why this is creepy as hell to some people, I just don't know what to tell you.

I am genuinely astonished that you failed to take into consideration the concerns of the playerbase before embarking on this project, and by the fact that I evidently have no say whatsoever in my playing habits being exhibited without my consent for everyone to see.

EDIT: to be clear, I'm not worried about my data or my identity. I'm specifically concerned with my playing habits being laid bare. There is too much detail shown.
Last edited by Wytchee on Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
Current character: Abigail Duskwood

User avatar
One Two Three Five
Posts: 1139
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 7:09 am

Re: Working on a player list.

Post by One Two Three Five » Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:23 am

Very tech-people-2017 response. 'Your privacy isn't yours, because I have the ability to take it from you.' I don't want to be on there, and I don't, frankly, trust a random third-party to log my play times because it's possible. It's a jerk thing to do to use the in-the-moment player list in ways that are unintended (or else the Arelith list would, like, do this natively) and then pretend that you don't understand people's concerns. Because you happen to know how to do this and want to.

And if you really don't understand why people would be concerned about this sort of granular facebook-esque logging of their time? You absolutely aren't responsible enough to run something like this.
to be clear, I'm not worried about my data or my identity. I'm specifically concerned with my playing habits being laid bare. There is too much detail shown.
This? Also, I shouldn't have to go to a third party outside the admins and dms to try and beg to opt out of something Arelith-related that I didn't consent to.
The devil does not need any more advocates
Clerics are just socially acceptable warlocks.

User avatar
Wytchee
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 875
Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2017 8:37 pm

Re: Working on a player list.

Post by Wytchee » Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:24 am

One Two Three Five wrote:And if you really don't understand why people would be concerned about this sort of granular facebook-esque logging of their time? You absolutely aren't responsible enough to run something like this.
While I really don't want to turn this into an argument (I am quite upset about this, though) I do agree with this sentiment.

Arelith isn't Farmville. I don't want everyone to know when I played and for how long.

Your response to our concerns is very techy and tone-deaf.
Current character: Abigail Duskwood

Cihparg
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 688
Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2014 4:32 pm
Location: Matrix, @bullish0576:mozilla.org

Re: Working on a player list.

Post by Cihparg » Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:43 am

One Two Three Five wrote:...
There's a difference between caching personally identifiable data, and anonymous data.
The reason the main player list doesn't (didn't) store the data the same way my playerlist currently does, is because the available space and resources for when the API was made up couldn't affordibly do that.
That could change in the future, which would make the necessity of my site pointless to an extent.

Beep boop.


Gods_Kill_People
Posts: 568
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:59 am

Re: Working on a player list.

Post by Gods_Kill_People » Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:46 am

May I ask....what exactly IS the point of your site? Why is it a necessity?

Cihparg
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 688
Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2014 4:32 pm
Location: Matrix, @bullish0576:mozilla.org

Re: Working on a player list.

Post by Cihparg » Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:53 am

Caching. It allows for both Arelith's team and the general public to retrieve old data (and current) for general or publication purposes.
See: Yearly player traffic which is oft presented like in here.

Of course, the scry itself was originally developed because people have a bad memory, and can't necessarily remember character names and who played them.
So assuming you're a returning player and don't remember who played "John Doe", you can look that up and see if the guy still plays, so you can go hit them up.
Last edited by Cihparg on Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

Beep boop.


User avatar
One Two Three Five
Posts: 1139
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 7:09 am

Re: Working on a player list.

Post by One Two Three Five » Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:55 am

Or just ask on the forum.
The devil does not need any more advocates
Clerics are just socially acceptable warlocks.

Gods_Kill_People
Posts: 568
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:59 am

Re: Working on a player list.

Post by Gods_Kill_People » Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:02 am

I can see the value in this service, as I have used the portal myself. At the same time though, I see the very real concerns of others too. A system like facebook needs you to willingly sign up and offer this information. You have directly taken it without the consent of the players and assumed it was alright to use. Which to some players, is very clearly not alright.

Cihparg
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 688
Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2014 4:32 pm
Location: Matrix, @bullish0576:mozilla.org

Re: Working on a player list.

Post by Cihparg » Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:22 am

The thing with that is; By playing on the server you (more or less) consent to having your character name and account name available to everyone (see: Public API).

In that essence, that data itself is official, even if the playerlist itself isn't; it may need to be legitimized to satisfy those concerned about the disconnect.

Beep boop.


Gods_Kill_People
Posts: 568
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:59 am

Re: Working on a player list.

Post by Gods_Kill_People » Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:26 am

actually no, I authorize Bioware, and the owners of the server to have my information, you choose to take it beyond that to a third party with or without the consent of players. Actually to be specific, in most cases without permission, its actually illegal. You are using our names, information and such for your personal use without consent.

In most states, you can be sued for using someone else's name, likeness, or other personal attributes without permission for an exploitative purpose. Usually, people run into trouble in this area when they use someone's name or photograph in a commercial setting, such as in advertising or other promotional activities.

User avatar
One Two Three Five
Posts: 1139
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 7:09 am

Re: Working on a player list.

Post by One Two Three Five » Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:28 am

I'm actually rather amazed the admins allow this but that's not my call I guess.
The devil does not need any more advocates
Clerics are just socially acceptable warlocks.

User avatar
Wytchee
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 875
Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2017 8:37 pm

Re: Working on a player list.

Post by Wytchee » Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:29 am

Cihparg wrote:The thing with that is; By playing on the server you (more or less) consent to having your character name and account name available to everyone (see: Public API).

In that essence, that data itself is official, even if the playerlist itself isn't; it may need to be legitimized to satisfy those concerned about the disconnect.
Yeah, man. You just don't get it.

It's not that the data is "official" it's that it's so readily available and *detailed.*

A playerlist is fine. Being able to see when, who and for how long individual players played is too much. It's *weird* and I don't understand why you don't see that.

There's an implied agreement logging in to Arelith that the server administrators are going to have your info like IP address, play times, etc. etc. I'm fine with that. You, however, are not a server administrator. You are not involved with development. This is your pet project.

While I appreciate the work you've put in I am really uncomfortable with my play habits being laid bare for everyone to see, especially by someone who is not part of the admin team.

Maybe dial back what exactly people can see. A playerlist+ or something. What it shows now is too much.

EDIT: I am trying real hard to be levelheaded about this, but I have played here on and off since 2006 and this feels like a breach of my trust.
Current character: Abigail Duskwood

User avatar
Peppermint
Posts: 1860
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 4:44 pm

Re: Working on a player list.

Post by Peppermint » Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:54 am

Dude, while I appreciate the work that went into this, I just had a look.

I can pull up any player and see every single time they've logged in--to the very second.

That's a little extreme, frankly absolutely unnecessary, and I don't blame players for feeling unsettled. Like, why?

Improv
Posts: 146
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:54 pm

Re: Working on a player list.

Post by Improv » Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:15 am

Cihparg wrote: So assuming you're a returning player and don't remember who played "John Doe", you can look that up and see if the guy still plays, so you can go hit them up.
You mean see if a player of a retired character is playing someone new? That's.. bordering on metagaming isn't it? Someone you barely remember from the distant past popping up and expecting attention (on an OOC level at that) is not always a positive thing. Frankly while this is a generally decent community there are a lot of people here who aren't the most socially adept or stable. Have you ever had to reject someone trying to be overly friendly and familiar in tells? Because it is not fun at all.

I make a new account for every alt specifically because of your site. I wouldn't mind people having a casual and general knowledge of what other characters I play or have played but giving them the ability to make an exact flowchart of all of my Arelith activity including deleted characters is.. wrong. Maybe if the logs only went back a week I would feel different, I don't know, but I see way more drawbacks than plusses here.

I'd also add, when the EE comes out we could see an influx of new players who may not have the love and respect for an old game and community the current players have either.

TimeAdept
Posts: 1336
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2017 7:02 am

Re: Working on a player list.

Post by TimeAdept » Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:19 am

They also see every character I have ever logged into that account with and how long those characters have been made and when they were created.

No wonder everyone makes an entirely new account every time they make a new character, too.

User avatar
Lorkas
Posts: 3903
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 3:14 pm

Re: Working on a player list.

Post by Lorkas » Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:44 am

Peppermint wrote:Dude, while I appreciate the work that went into this, I just had a look.

I can pull up any player and see every single time they've logged in--to the very second.

That's a little extreme, frankly absolutely unnecessary, and I don't blame players for feeling unsettled. Like, why?
You can't see every time they've logged in, just the most recent time. You can also see when a particular character was first seen.

Basically you can get "First seen..." and "Last seen..."
That's.. bordering on metagaming isn't it?
It straight up is metagaming, but so is looking at the server portal, playernames, the in game playerlist, or the server notifications that day when people log in or out. Not all metagaming is bad.

Post Reply