Build my build (melee) plz

[SuikoBro108]

Hello! I suck at building and am not used to making melee builds (or any for that matter)at all. I want to make a new melee character who is a viable in AB and AC. I talked to some people and they mostly suggested going WM, but really I just have no clue what do at all. I'm leaning more towards pve, not, pvp based. What classes should i do? Feats, etc etc.

I'm also interested in possibly making a blackguard, is there a way to make an effective tank or fighter out of them?

plz help! THANKS.

[Kalimere]

well if you are looking for viable AC and AB, even a straight 30 fighter will do good in that aspect due to the fighter enhancement bonuses. And though WM's are great for pvp and you want to pve focus, they are great in pve as well. I would suggest 20 fighter / 7 WM / 3 rogue or bard (Depending on if you want sneak attacks or spellcraft for saves vs spells) To maximize your AB, I wouldnt take the bard or rogue before epic levels. Taking them later even in epics will allow you to get the most out of the Tumble skill, which helps top off the good AC of a fighter.

[Jack Oat]

Fighter(20), Blackguard(5), Rogue(5), Human

STR: 15 (17 Gift) (20)
DEX: 12
CON: 14 (16 Gift)
WIS: 8
INT: 14
CHA: 16 (14 Gift) (20)

Human: (Quick to Master)
01: Fighter(1): Luck of Heroes, Strong Soul, Weapon Focus: Scimitar
02: Fighter(2): Expertise
03: Fighter(3): Toughness
04: Fighter(4): STR+1, Weapon Specialization: Scimitar, (STR=18)
05: Fighter(5)
06: Fighter(6): Iron Will, Knockdown
07: Fighter(7)
08: Fighter(8): STR+1, Improved Knockdown, (STR=19)
09: Fighter(9): Lightning Reflexes
10: Fighter(10): Improved Critical: Scimitar
11: Fighter(11)
12: Fighter(12): STR+1, Great Fortitude, Power Attack, (STR=20)
13: Blackguard(1)
14: Blackguard(2): {Smite Good}
15: Blackguard(3): Divine Shield
16: Fighter(13): CHA+1, (CHA=17)
17: Fighter(14): Improved Expertise
18: Blackguard(4): Divine Might
19: Fighter(15)
20: Fighter(16): CHA+1, Blind Fight, (CHA=18)
21: Fighter(17): Epic Weapon Focus: Scimitar
22: Fighter(18): Epic Weapon Specialization: Scimitar
23: Rogue(1)
24: Rogue(2): CHA+1, Epic Reflexes, {Evasion}, (CHA=19)
25: Rogue(3): {Uncanny Dodge I}
26: Fighter(19)
27: Fighter(20): Epic Will, Armor Skin
28: Rogue(4): CHA+1, (CHA=20)
29: Rogue(5)
30: Blackguard(5): Epic Skill Focus: Discipline


Hitpoints: 400
Skillpoints: 195
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 31/23/24 - BEFORE +6 from CHA gear
Saving Throw bonuses: Death: +1
BAB: 25

This gives you the Fighter +4 bonus, decent/good AB (43 base), great AC buffed (64+), solid damage, etc. You can meander the ability points as you see fit and still have the ability to customize your gear to give bonuses to your CON, saves, or just regular STR/CHA. It's a generic build, but still solid and powerful.

For skills, I'd IMPLORE maxing Discipline to 33, Tumble to 30, and UMD to 10 (15 after base CHA mod). I'd also advise taking Heal as a skill, especially if you're aiming for a PvE build, as well as a few points into Lore to ID stuff. Who knows? Maybe max Lore for that sweet, sweet language comprehension. You have the points to decide that for yourself.

Otherwise, it's a fairly straight-forward build. Click on something and you're a basic fighter. Find something that can hit you too often? Put on Improved Expertise and/or Divine Shield. Want to do more damage? Put on Divine Might and/or Power Attack mode. You'll crit roll 45% of the attacks you hit (since you'd have a threat roll of 12-20x2 with a Keen'd scimitar).

This build is also effective in PvP, if you ever find yourself in a position where you need that, as well.

[SuikoBro108]

That sounds pretty solid indeed. Awesome thanks.

[Ork]

Might be better to take 2 more Fighter levels for an additional Epic Fighter Feat than an added 1d6 sneak attack from 5 levels of rogue.

[Jack Oat]

One more Epic Fighter Feat and 8 HP at the cost of 1d6 Sneak Attack damage, 12 Skill Points, and having to wait much later into Epics to get UMD/Tumble, just to actually weigh the pros and cons.

[DestroyerOTN]

One more Epic Fighter Feat and 8 HP at the cost of 1d6 Sneak Attack damage, 12 Skill Points, and having to wait much later into Epics to get UMD/Tumble, just to actually weigh the pros and cons.

As a serious builder, this ruins my immersion greatly !!!

The optimization to be found in those 2 levels isn't to be underestimated. Trading for a few skill points and earlier UMD ((which means relatively little) sneaks mean nada) seems a bit odd compared to an extra +4 base damage and 8 HP. The 12 DEX, lack of 16 STR, and the save feats also seem a bit "out of place". Since the build already gets 30 universal saves done right (the highest DC possible on Hold Person, one of the more common will-save spells, is low 30s), why would you ruin it with overkill?

Not claiming that I have room to talk or anything, but Ork is on to something; and while it's not damning otherwise, you have to consider optimization!

The most optimal thing about the current spread is the weapon choice TBH. Subtle tweaks, but they're -way- better for performance than you think.

All the difference involved in making something flexible is worth considering.

[grip]

sneaks mean nada

Eh?

compared to an extra +4 base damage

The build has EWS.

The 12 DEX, lack of 16 STR, and the save feats also seem a bit "out of place".

Huh?

The most optimal thing about the current spread is the weapon choice TBH.

Uh. I believe your assessment of the build is off.

[Jack Oat]

The optimization to be found in those 2 levels isn't to be underestimated. Trading for a few skill points and earlier UMD ((which means relatively little) sneaks mean nada) seems a bit odd compared to an extra +4 base damage and 8 HP. The 12 DEX, lack of 16 STR, and the save feats also seem a bit "out of place". Since the build already gets 30 universal saves done right (the highest DC possible on Hold Person, one of the more common will-save spells, is low 30s), why would you ruin it with overkill?

Not claiming that I have room to talk or anything, but Ork is on to something; and while it's not damning otherwise, you have to consider optimization!

The most optimal thing about the current spread is the weapon choice TBH. Subtle tweaks, but they're -way- better for performance than you think.

All the difference involved in making something flexible is worth considering.

I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. You can argue about the difference between 22 Fighter/3 Rogue and 20 Fighter/5 Rogue. I don't personally care. What I posted in response to Ork was the flat-out cost/benefit analysis.

I have no idea where you're coming up with +4 extra damage from 2 more Fighter Levels. The build I posted already gets Epic Weapon Spec.

I have no idea what you're talking about in regards to the "12 DEX, lack of 16 STR" bit. 12 DEX gives a +1 modifier-- all you need for Plate Armor, and you never have to mess with Cat's Grace. Sure, you could ditch it and boost your STR and CHA a point each, round them out, and get 22/20 or 20/22 on each, and also have to mess with DEX modification stuff. Whatever floats your boat, though.

The build gets base saves of FORT 30, REF 24, and WILL 23. With a CHA bonus, that goes to 36/30/29. That's WITH the save boosts. The Epic Will was mostly for Dragon Auras, Fear spells, and I believe one or two of the Bigsby spells certain NPC Magi like to toss around like lollipops at a fat kids' convention. But again, if Suiko wants to switch it out for something else? Go for it.


What I DO draw issue with is the tone of your post. Claiming the weapon choice is the "most optimal thing about the current spread" is extremely disrespectful. It sets a precedent that I have no idea what I'm talking about when it comes to building or playing. It's the "most optimal thing" to you. To me, what I posted is the most optimal thing. Constructive criticism is fine, but flat-out telling someone that they're wrong based off of your own opinions with no actual backing isn't helping anything. In fact, all it may really do is confuse Suiko. Comments like the one you made are why people prefer talking about builds over PMs: so they don't have to deal with being criticized unjustly by everyone who downloads CBC and putzes around with it a few times.

With your post, I see no constructive criticism. So let me add some as a counter to your post. You claim the two extra levels aren't to be underestimated. I never disagreed. What I DO disagree with is that "earlier UMD means nothing." There's 98,000 XP between level 23 and level 27. A 100k XP gap between when you suggest he takes UMD, and when I do. 100k XP he could get more easily with UMD than without.

You claim he could ditch 12 DEX for 8 DEX, instead, and boost either Charisma or Strength by 2 points end-build (or at least, that's what I believe you're saying). Sure, he could. I wouldn't, because then I have to either sacrifice gear slots for DEX, wait until 23 (or, in your case, 27) for UMD to slap myself silly an aggravating number of times with a wand, or marry the guy in the Amnish Embassy and promise to bear one of his children for a deal on a lifetime supply of Cat's Grace potions. Not to mention, Reflex is a good save to boost via DEX, and the total cost of boosting either STR or CHA modifier by 1 just doesn't, in my opinion, outweigh the benefits of never being forced to deal with wands/potions/skleens.

You claim the extra sneak attack damage, an average of 3.5 damage per Sneak Attack, would be a waste when compared to a bonus Fighter Feat. I disagree. Considering this build is designed for PvE, where most creatures can be knocked down, that's a bonus of 7-10.5 damage a round, depending on when the KD lands.

You claim that the save feats are out of place. I disagree. Most PvE Magi have DCs ranging from 10 to the low 30s on their spells. Having high saves allows him to only have to worry about rolling a 1. Additionally, IF his character ever gets into PvP they'll have a better chance versus casters or Monks as far as saves go.

In the future, both with this thread and others, try to refrain from sweeping generalizations and stating personal opinion as absolute fact. It's your opinion, and you aren't God-- your words aren't the Law of Man.

[The Rambling Midget]

@SuikoBro

Both of the suggested builds are solid, although you'll probably need some help with mind protection, if you don't want to chug a Clarity potion every minute. Befriend a Weave Master.

Also, be careful about stacking up ECL. Jack suggests 2.5 with the STR/CON/CHA gifts, but it can feel like dragging an anchor for the first dozen levels, and doesn't really even out until mid epics.

[Jack Oat]

What TRM said is true. 2.5 ECL can be an absolute nightmare earlier on. The good side is that it fades away from memory at about level 12-15ish, in my experience. But yes, you could always ditch the gifts and go for 18 STR, 14 CON, and 18 CHA. It'd still be pretty effective.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

I've a question out of curiousity-

In your initial spread, Jack, why do you take Blackguard as late? Is the Hide requirement that pushes to at least level 10? Isn't Divine Might/Shield more effective earlier on? Are we waiting for bigger CHA modifier?
Just curious behind the rationale!

[grip]

If you get the +2 Fighter enhancement at 10th you can wear enchanted armor, shield, and helm from 3rd level onward. Also, in my experience, the basic combat feats make early levels far easier.

Not my build, just my thoughts.

[Jack Oat]

It's exactly what Grip said. The +2 bonus and combat feats are always, in my opinion, better to take as early as you can. On top of that, my characters (this is just mine, anyway) don't usually get their dual-ability gear until about 13-15. So Divine Might/Shield wouldn't be as effective early on in comparison to IKD, Expertise, and Imp Crit.

[Ork]

Truthfully, this is a powerful build. The only cravat I have against it is the efficiency of CHA over STR. Personally, I would set the CHA of this character higher and never invest points into it.

You could get 15 CHA with 8 stat points and take the +1 CHA/-1 CON background w/ +2 CHA gift to set you at 18 CHA. Then invest solely in STR points + STR feats. My reason in saying this is that extra +1 mod CHA only gets you +1 dmg/+1 AC situational and +1 saves that will already be high. Strength will grant permanent +1 dmg & +1 AB.

Specifically with another Blackguard character I had, I found the advantage of CHA over STR to be wholly lacking in sustainability.

[Jack Oat]

Sure! Like I said, most of the stat spread is manipulable. I made a fighter/Blackguard character who ended with 24 STR, 13 DEX, 14 CON, 8 WIS, 14 INT, and 18 CHA base. Works just fine. Having a bit more time/bonus to Div Might/Shield is preferable to me, though. Again, it's easily changed.

[Manabi]

#opiniontime

[Ork]

The question now is: which is better? Fighter/BG/Rogue or Fighter/WM/Rogue. #opiniontime

[The Rambling Midget]

BG = Better saves and short bursts of powerful defense/offense
WM = Consistent better damage

It always depends on what you want to do with it.

[Manabi]

The question now is: which is better? Fighter/BG/Rogue or Fighter/WM/Rogue. #opiniontime

Neither - the obvious best choice would be a purple dragon knight combo.

[DestroyerOTN]

The question now is: which is better? Fighter/BG/Rogue or Fighter/WM/Rogue. #opiniontime

Neither - the obvious best choice would be a purple dragon knight combo.

Pleb. It's Ftr/Harper Scout/Rogue and you know it.

Ensure you get a weapon focus in all types of melee damage at least once, and make the world's best sodding DEX based Greataxe wielder for great justice

[Manabi]

The question now is: which is better? Fighter/BG/Rogue or Fighter/WM/Rogue. #opiniontime

Neither - the obvious best choice would be a purple dragon knight combo.

Pleb. It's Ftr/Harper Scout/Rogue and you know it.

Ensure you get a weapon focus in all types of melee damage at least once, and make the world's best sodding DEX based Greataxe wielder for great justice

Psh, please. The harpers are a hyped up vigilante group with an elf fetish and you know it. Compare that to the elite military class that is the purple dragon knights and get back to me.

Go back to your dragonsaurs.

[Yellena]

Actually the best build is a Monk27/Rogue3 with maxed WIS and all Increase SR feats possible. Shapechange scroll and lulz.

Alternativelly you can make a Monk20/Fighter10. All Fighter levels at epics so you can take Improved Stunning Fist on all feats you have at epics.

[Durvayas]

30 FTR bruh. Every feat you could ever want, + a natural +6 enhancement on any weapon you hold. Not to mention +18AC.

[Ork]

30 FTR bruh. Every feat you could ever want, + a natural +6 enhancement on any weapon you hold. Not to mention +18AC.

Full fighter is noticeably lacking in the damage department. Compare the 20 Fighter/BG to the 30 Fighter.

20 Fighter gets +4, 30 Fighter gets +6. That's a spread of -6 AC, -2 AB, and -2 DMG from enchantments. Now look at the Blackguard. He gets +10 AC, +10 damage from divine feats. He also gets +10 saves from BG levels. What is he lacking? the 2 AB. I think for the other qualities, I'd sacrifice a bit of AB for sustainability.

Also there are only so many relevant Epic Fighter Feats. Eventually you're gonna be stuck taking things like Imp. Power Attack and Called Shot. Bleh.