Undead Update: Discussion

[Nitinious]

(moved this here)

" *there is 2LDR version at the end >.< (Self-admitted rant-artist)

Ok, so, not sure if this is how it's supposed to be, but I have some observations.

1st, when you use undead now, specifically animate undead as a lower lvl necro caster, you only get 1 summon, and it is counting as a regular summon. Once you pass a certain point, and have the cl lvl 15 undead skeleton, it becomes not worth summoning an undead, as opposed to an elemental or something in the regular summon category. (actually, I used 2 zombies under the old system, it might even trail off earlier in usage)

Basically I wasn't using undead at all for a while, until I got access to Create Undead (which is a higher lvl spell) Until then having the focus in undead was, silly, as it pertains to 'getting an extra summon with necro focus'. -which is partially untrue presently, without access to create undead, as mentioned.

When it comes to EMD usage, and undead spells, animate undead, create undead. Do you now need all three of these spells to activate two of the summons being classified as henchmen?

Before you could just summon it twice, and it would allow multiple summons. (or if epic, does two).

In summation, this comes across as a nerf to undead summoners until they are more max'd upgraded with high level spells in terms of undead summoning.

If that was the intention, then okeee, but there's no reason, presently, in terms of summoning to even have necro focus, until later-game at highish level. (before they are, then, even classified as henchmen, thereby allowing multiple summonings)

Hat goes out to the new necro summoners thinking they're getting an extra summon. (cause, that's not for a lonnnnnng time) >.<

My suggestion then, thus, and therefore, is, if necromancers only get 1 summon until much much later in their progression, then perhaps the low level (low cl) necro summons should get a boost, as the necromancer only gets 1 of them now, instead of the previous 2. -or simply, not-use-undead, until higher lvl. (opting for other more useful singular, summons).

Either

A. low-mid lvl cl undead summons are boosted to be on par with other singular summons

or

B. They'd stay weaker because you get two of them. (and are able to summon, two, of them) [with appropriate feats] (even at lower levels!, which would imply casting animate undead 2x would give you multiple henceman/summons) [as it was previous]

Afterthought: I always thought it was cool that conjuration improved regular single-summons, and necromancy was awesome due to the whole 'undead horde' aspect of having another summon. I like the undead-horde thing, it's kewlll.

*the above is meant to aid and inform, it is an observation, with possible suggestions, no whining included, if low lvl necros need to use not-undead until much later, then RIP low-lvl necro summoning and all hail the rise of the closet-necromancer who late-blooms into an undead flower. w/e, the game is still fun ^.^

(and thank you for donating your time to improve the game at all ^.-)


TLDR version:

Low level undead summoning sux (in my humblest of opinions)
Advised either Improve the low lvl summon or re-allow multiple summonings at lower cls. (animate dead multicast)
(I like option 2, as conjuration fills the niche of a stronger individual summon already, I like le undead hordes theme for necros, weaker, but more numbers to compensate)
Whatever is decided upon, Thank you for donating your time to improve the game ^.-


Edit: A note on PM's I still think it's cool if they have a tier higher undead summon tied to the class, because they sacrificed their spell casting duration abilities to accomplish it. They invest a lot for that summon-cake, even moreso than a conjuration focus'd mage in terms of spell durations. -however, maintains numbers (of summons) advantage. There's a careful balance in there somewhere. (but yes, Pm undead summoner > than non-pm necro summoner in terms of summoning stronger undead.)"

[Sanctus57]

All of your questions are explained in other threads, such as viewtopic.php?f=14&t=38&start=175

Going to post the most relevant part for your convenience:

// Casters can have up to one minion per Spell Focus in Necromancy (min 1).
// The first is summoned as a usual creature (i.e. in the summon slot).
// The second and third, if applicable, take up henchman slots.
// Each distinct spell can only summon one minion (so casting animate dead
// twice won't net you a second minion, even with GSF).
// There are three streams of undead (zombie, ghoul and wraith). Zombie is
// the default. PCs can do rituals to change stream.
// There are 4 tiers of creature. Tier 2 kicks in at level 11, Tier 3 at 16,
// and Tier 4 when you have the Mummy Dust spell.
// Your effective level is the sum of your Cleric, Wizard, Sorc and PM levels.

The creatures are:
Zombie stream: Zombie, Skeleton, Mummy, Mummy Lord
Ghoul stream: Ghoul, Ghast, Wight, Vampire
Wraith stream (coming soon): Specter, Wraith, Banshee, Lich


But really, just do some digging on the forums. Everything you have mentioned here is addressed, for the most part. Zombies are actually tougher and better for leveling than they used to be, thanks to higher ACs, ABs, and regeneration, in addition to their old damage reduction. Now, if only we could get them wielding weapons...

[Mithreas]

The old system was, frankly, overpowered at lower levels. Having a pair of skeleton warriors at level 10 was way above the curve, as was having a pair of zombies at level 5 cleric.

Under the new system, a level 11 cleric can get their second summon, and it's a skeleton with decent durability but less explosive damage than the old warriors. A wizard/PM can do it at level 10 (8 wiz 2 PM, opening up animate dead as a spell and a feat) or level 9 if they go wiz 5 / PM 4 and get both PM feats - at level 9-10 it's still two zombies that are better than the old tyrantfog zombies, but not going to tear through opposing spawns in seconds.

So whichever path you take, you're getting your second summon at around level 10, rather than having it basically from the start of your character. That makes it a class feature that you earn and grow into, while still making it available early. I don't see a problem here.

[Tyrantos]

And if you still wish to run with 2 undead summons and an elemental, you'll need Epic Necromancy. If you rest, two of the Three undead will linger behind, while one vanish- leaving you to summon an elemental. (Possible you could just summon it after dismissing the summoned undead, which is not a companion.)

*EDIT* Would be cool if you could mix and match the type of summons you have, but dont know how one would code that. (Meaning that you might have one "Tank" one "DPS" and one "caster" summon.)

[Kuma]

Unrelatedly, I can happily confirm that the PM-affecting-CL is working to a greater or lesser extent. Vanilla Ayin (20 Wizard/3 Rogue/7 Pale Master) in a test server will do 48 Cold damage with a maximised Ice Storm. On Arelith, this goes up to 54, for a +1d6 increase, in line with at least a +1 increase. Given that the bonus has been alluded to function on even levels, and that Ice Storm increases every 3 levels (21, 24, 27), this implies that his 6th PM level is giving him a +3 boost to spell effects, for a CL of 23 for everything that isn't Spell Penetration.

Awesome!

[Cihparg]

Say, and excuse me if this is already answered;

Does focusing on Conjuration along with Necromancy have any negative side effects?

[Hatred]

It might need to be more clear about the fact that wizards/sorcerers who have Spell Focus Necromancy and Greater Spell Focus Necromancy actually do not get 2 undead summons until later levels. I took both of these feats at 1 and 3, and have been trying to work out exactly why the system wasn't working. It's frustrating, to say the least.

[Kuma]

I think a large part of this sensation may possibly come down to people reading the Arelith Wiki and it not matching what's IG. It still hasn't been updated to reflect the new changes to undead spells, Necromancy feats, Pale Master levels, and Mummy Dust.

Say, and excuse me if this is already answered;

Does focusing on Conjuration along with Necromancy have any negative side effects?

You won't be able to have a corpse AND a summon out until you can summon two undead (whenever it is you get your second undead summoning ability, be it from your casting class or PM), and even then you will be replacing the one that occupies your summon slot- meaning you still have to burn a spell slot.

Of course, this means you have a summon and a corpse. Like, more things. That's still pretty amazing.


Otherwise they don't negatively effect one another, or something.

[Mithreas]

I think a large part of this sensation may possibly come down to people reading the Arelith Wiki and it not matching what's IG. It still hasn't been updated to reflect the new changes to undead spells, Necromancy feats, Pale Master levels, and Mummy Dust.

Having noticed this, can you fix it please?

I barely get any time to play this game as it is, so every few minutes the community can save me is appreciated.

[Nitro]

I like the update so far, having had the chance to try out the new summons. My only gripe is how hard it is for pure palemasters to get ESF: Necromancy to get their third summon in the game, especially those poor bard or Sorcerer Palemasters. Perhaps make it so epic palemasters can summon 3 undead whether they have the epic spell focus in necromancy or not? It is a pretty big investment after all.

[Kuma]

I'm personally finding it hard to squeeze in Mummy Dust, actually, into a PM build that doesn't kind of blow chunks as a caster. While levelling up a pale master will have more sources of undead-casting spells, and thus have readier access to multiple undead, a regular wizard will get there Eventually and not have to sacrifice any CL to get both Mummy Dust and Epic Focus, and probably a bunch of other epic spells and things to boot.

[Cortex]

With how barbarians and PMs are being changed, could you make 15 barbarian/5 bard/10 PM or something work?

[Kuma]

Your undead would be the original Tier 1, and thus pretty terrible by the time you even get them. Though in terms of immunities and other stuff, you're looking at a very interesting suite of abilities. Turn that around to 10 Barb and 15 PM and you get EMA. Lots of possibilities- EDR on a PM, anyone?

I'm kicking around a few builds for an arcane necromancer with Pale Master, but Modified Ayin Builds are tricky to get Mummy Dust on without either tanking your CL (even with the update) or never getting Tier 4 summons, which is something I think an Epic PM should get regardless. Also, Sorcerers are laughably useless for PMs unless you're going dedicated minion master weave master, due to how their spell selection works. The other option is a splash of 3 PM for dracolich, but that kinda defeats the purpose of playing a PM, really. Though it DOES net you an easy Animate Dead feat so you aren't wasting 5 components for Mummy Dust...

EDIT:

viewtopic.php?f=15&p=35987#p35987

This suggestion is fantastic, and definitely possible. I played on a server where such was enabled through a self-dialogue to pick such things on sorc-style casters when levelling up in an arcane progressing PrC. It used haks, but I really don't think that haks would be necessary for something that is entirely scripty, instead. Considering how Warlocks work, for example, this is very similar. +1

[Scurvy Cur]

Suggestion, then:

Apply T4 undead summons to anyone with 10 PM levels -and- the ability to cast level 9 spells.

Additionally, potentially consider making the special PM summon spells infinite use with a 4 minute cooldown, giving the PM wizard the ability to continually summon his deathless minions. It won't make him any stronger encounter to encounter, but it will mean he has a concrete advantage over more traditional wizards in the endless font of cannon fodder front.