Project: UD Love

[Whitewood]

Making this topic so that things about the Underdark, what we'd like to see in the Underdark, and what NEEDS to be changed in the Underdark can be discussed.

I have several things on my mind about the Underdark, but for the moment i'll express one.

1) The Spiders Web.
Years ago, this was a highly populated tavern within Udos Dro'xun, lesser races weren't able to get there unless they were slaves/servants of drow houses. When Udos was destroyed, the Spiders Web was, magically, if strangely transported(nothing changing inside) to be within the new settlement of Pit Town. Strange, how did it get there? Did it fall straight down to land flat without any destruction caused to the building? Now, Coming back to see both Udos and Grond completely gone. Stepping foot inside the new settlement of Andunor(Seems to be another version of Pit Town). I see the Spiders Web once more, mind boggling. Inside, Nothing has changed, save for a few added npcs and 2 rooms on the first floor. I dont get how this tavern has been transported to two different settlements without any changes, magically appearing in perfect condition.
Was this area merely oversighted or ignored??

[Cortex]

I'm going to bet on the generic DEV reply:

Work.

[Kuma]

Actually, the real answer is that the buildings were magically transported. The Spider's Web is just one building that survived both the Cataclysm and the Flooding, along with the goblin cave network and the Grondhouse (though it's had two reworks in Andunor alone). Grond's houses survived through to Pit Town, I believe, which then survived through to the Devil's Table.

tl;dr: Drak'aa wizard NPCs did it.

[Whitewood]

Actually, the real answer is that the buildings were magically transported. The Spider's Web is just one building that survived both the Cataclysm and the Flooding, along with the goblin cave network and the Grondhouse (though it's had two reworks in Andunor alone). Grond's houses survived through to Pit Town, I believe, which then survived through to the Devil's Table.

tl;dr: Drak'aa wizard NPCs did it.

Thats your anwser, and the wizard npcs explaination is just kinda a lamed out reponse to me
I havent really seen very many changes to the UD, except for small additonal paths and 1-2 dungeon areas.
Whats the deal with the Underdark? Is it just completely unnessesary to make any changes or develop areas or land? Andunor is just another dumbed down version of Pit town in my eyes, another thing for the surfacers that come down here to laugh at us for. Not quite fair to the UD players who want something unique, the surface has probably got overhauled a few dozen times while i was away.

[MowerQueen]

How about...The Drow liked their original tavern design so they rebuilt it as similarly as possible? Is that really hard to believe?

Also the UD had MAJOR reworks backed up by big plot points, which took a lot of time and effort even if you can't appreciate that because you don't like the result.

Nobody's saying it's perfect but the tone of this thread really rubs me the wrong way.

[JediMindTrix]

pfft, this thread.

UD has undergone extensive changes and revisions, and as MowerQueen pointed out, these were (mostly) backed up by RP and DM Plots. A very small team poured their free time into it, and if you ever talk to any of them, you can tell they put a huge amount of forethought and love into it... and started this project at a time when the staff could've been very justified for completely stripping the Underdark from the server.
Have you seen the Map Room of the entire Underdark down there? It's too scale. Too scale. So they didn't change the Spider's Web more to your liking? That's because it's a touchstone, and a nod, to the past of the UD. You yourself said that it actually has been changed, with room and NPC additions. UD has seen and will continue to see plenty of love. If anything, I encourage any of those developers to keep going the way they are.

Besides, if the drunk eyeball disappeared, I would be mortified. Methinks you have something in common with Blinky, because "your eye" is failing you.

[Dunshine]

Whats the deal with the Underdark? Is it just completely unnessesary to make any changes or develop areas or land? Andunor is just another dumbed down version of Pit town in my eyes, another thing for the surfacers that come down here to laugh at us for. Not quite fair to the UD players who want something unique, the surface has probably got overhauled a few dozen times while i was away.

Are you kidding? The Underdark has gotten the biggest overhaul in Arelith history as far as I'm aware, including several unique to the UD, "making surfacers jealous", thingies.

- An entire new (big) city, with Gondola's, a Bank, a Cage Fight, Slave(r)s, a giant Library and a Colloseum
- Land Brokerage
- Lots of new monsters
- The Fearzress
- Sporewinds, Earthquakes
- Wandering Tinkers
- Wyvern Riding
- A Druide Grove
- A whole lot of new and interesting dungeon areas
- A Dreadnought

I'm sure I'm forgetting much more.

But if the biggest concern in the current UD is the Spiders Web, I think we're good.

[Lorkas]

I havent really seen very many changes to the UD, except for small additonal paths and 1-2 dungeon areas.

[...]Udos Dro'xun, [...] Udos was destroyed [...] new settlement of Pit Town. [...] Udos and Grond completely gone [...] new settlement of Andunor

[Norfildor]

tl;dr: Drak'aa wizard NPCs did it.

Thats your anwser, and the wizard npcs explaination is just kinda a lamed out reponse to me.

I find your lack of faith in the Drak'aa disturbing...

[Scurvy Cur]

OP, are you out of your mind?

The UD has been the most loved up darling child of a server in some time, seeing extensive, painstaking, detailed rework by a dev team desperate to breathe life back into it after it strangled itself into stagnation. It has gotten more personal attention in a short time from people that care about it than any other large set of areas in the server's history, with more new mechanics, features, NPCs, and areas (some of which confer a simply insane mechanical or RP advantage) than anywhere else in the server.

The last loving rework of the UD server was breathtaking in scope and magnificent in execution...

And the pre existng UD playerbase, or portions of it, spent the subsequent several months complaining their asses off about details and minutae that they didn't like, grousing and moaning about the presence of surface races in their RP, and being massively unwelcoming to new people coming to the server to try new things.

TBH, if I were Mith/Dunishine/Irongron, or any of the other people that poured their heart and soul into a module only to have it so thoroughly dismissed and complained about by an ossified playerbase hostile to attempts to do things a little differently, I would have flushed UD as a playable server about three months after Anundor went in. Yet these guys stuck with it.

So here's my suggestion to the UD Devs:

You guys tried giving shiny new toys to the UD, and some of the people down there have been spitting in your face for most of a year over it now. They seem to be demanding changes as something they're owed, that they need, and which it is wrong for you not to give them. Don't give in to this entitled, demanding, ungrateful bs.

Promise that the next rework of the UD will see a return of the aboleths, except instead of flooding the UD with seawater, they'll flood it with radiation, and turn the entire UD into an epic level survival horror module occupying a thematic space somewhere between Fallout and Don't Starve. Explain that the only monster races playable on this server will be mutants, and will be unable to communicate in common, with a disclaimer that they are intended to be played as a player-run part of the survival horror hazard.

The whiners won't whine any more than they currently are, and I'd play there.

[Dalenger]

the only monster races playable on this server will be mutants

OMG YES!!! DO IT DO IT DO IT!!!

I'll agree with pretty much everyone above, the op really needs to rethink the basis of his complaint.
My only complaint concerning the UD would be that we're trying to squeeze too diverse a populous into one city. However, given the size of the UD player base, to spread us out any farther would kill random rp encounters. So for now, I think it's as great as its going to get.

Kudos: UD devs

[Cuchilla]

Before this thead goes overboard.

Yes, some players complained about the UD. But imo, it were only a few. The "new" UD, from May 2014, has been and still is the greatest succes of the Underdark, when it comes to number of players (sometimes there are more players than on the other two servers), when it comes to roleplay (plots, creativity, storylines etc) and when it comes to creating fun for Arelith in general.

Don't forget, that we're many, repeat many (and to my estimate, the overvhelming majority) of players loving the UD, who love the last remake of the UD. A few complaints (and I don't think the player who started this thread meant it as a complaint) on the forum shouldn't push these facts aside.

There is absolutely no reasons for any Surface-only player not to test it. If you really want to. And like Dunshine already put it. If the Spider's Web is the only concern, then we're good. And for my part, I'll confirm it: UD is REALLY good!

[Someonehere123]

Note, I myself am divorced from the Underdark these days and the politics involved. I haven't been directly invested in modern Andunorian roleplay, and my opinions below are only from a historical perspective, ranging from Urblexis Grond, to the overhaul of the UD Caravans, to the Stonehold Portal's creation, to Pit Town, to early Andunor.

OP, are you out of your mind?

The UD has been the most loved up darling child of a server in some time, seeing extensive, painstaking, detailed rework by a dev team desperate to breathe life back into it after it strangled itself into stagnation. It has gotten more personal attention in a short time from people that care about it than any other large set of areas in the server's history, with more new mechanics, features, NPCs, and areas (some of which confer a simply insane mechanical or RP advantage) than anywhere else in the server.

The last loving rework of the UD server was breathtaking in scope and magnificent in execution...

And the pre existng UD playerbase, or portions of it, spent the subsequent several months complaining their asses off about details and minutae that they didn't like, grousing and moaning about the presence of surface races in their RP, and being massively unwelcoming to new people coming to the server to try new things.

TBH, if I were Mith/Dunishine/Irongron, or any of the other people that poured their heart and soul into a module only to have it so thoroughly dismissed and complained about by an ossified playerbase hostile to attempts to do things a little differently, I would have flushed UD as a playable server about three months after Anundor went in. Yet these guys stuck with it.

So here's my suggestion to the UD Devs:

You guys tried giving shiny new toys to the UD, and some of the people down there have been spitting in your face for most of a year over it now. They seem to be demanding changes as something they're owed, that they need, and which it is wrong for you not to give them. Don't give in to this entitled, demanding, ungrateful bs.

Promise that the next rework of the UD will see a return of the aboleths, except instead of flooding the UD with seawater, they'll flood it with radiation, and turn the entire UD into an epic level survival horror module occupying a thematic space somewhere between Fallout and Don't Starve. Explain that the only monster races playable on this server will be mutants, and will be unable to communicate in common, with a disclaimer that they are intended to be played as a player-run part of the survival horror hazard.

The whiners won't whine any more than they currently are, and I'd play there.

I logged into this account just to quote you in full and reaffirm everything you just said, times ten. Being a player who was deeply involved with the Underdark from the days of Urblexis Grond (before THAT city's SECOND rehaul) and Udos, and I can confirm that the devs have slaved over the Underdark for years trying to create an environment that fosters a more positive roleplay experience for everyone, UD race or surface race.

I think, after all these years, it's clear that the module itself isn't the problem with the Underdark; the problem is just the same as it has plagued that server for years. For some older examples, just take a look at some of the attitudes we're talking about. I'm intentionally not linking to more recent posts on the current forums, so I'm not singling out any active players.

But a very vocal, very bitter, very obstructionist and very stubborn subsection of the Underdark population, usually (usually) drow players, have poisoned what should be an amazing, fascinating environment for the majority of the (decent!) Underdark population who simply want to enjoy themselves and create stories with others.

However, no one likes to say that because it's incendiary, it provokes that small subsection of the population, their feelings are hurt and they either respond in kind, or the moderators lock the thread where it's been said to prevent that from happening (understandably!).

I think it's not unreasonable, however, to posit that the negative, virulent attitudes that OP has projected are a superb example of a very long-standing and dangerous entitlement and separatist attitude that's typified the relationship between Arelith players who mostly play Surface, and Arelith players who mostly play in the Underdark.

As difficult and terrible as it is to say, there are players in the Underdark, long- and short-time players, who are the source of this issue. I was a part of the problem too, during my earlier days as Vippin, but over time, I feel (and hope) that I improved and was able to play characters that gave much more to the world, like Terrinus or Ahriman (with apologies to the Arcane Tower for the former...). It's all a matter of personal perspective and a community-minded playstyle, which most people have already!

Do I think the problem with the Underdark is insurmountable?

No.

Do I think that trying to inculcate more community-minded values in the Underdark is impossible?

No.

Do I think that an alternative solution is more viable, such as (for example) what Scurvy Cur suggested, or something along those lines?

Yes.

Do I think that's fair to the Underdark players who are a part of the server community at a whole, and haven't done anything to deserve a breakdown of the Underdark?

No.

Truthfully, I enjoyed the Underdark tremendously when I played there; I met a great number of people who were wonderful roleplayers, some of whom I'm still friends with to this day. I think the environment is beautiful across the incarnations the Dev team has painstakingly painted for it, and some of my favorite stories have been down there with some of the great people who have populated it. From Grond to Pit Town to Andunor, the Dev Team has created many outstanding worlds below the surface.

Sadly, and this may be my own cynicism speaking, I don't think there's a fair, egalitarian, and respectful solution to the on-going social issues in a portion of that sub-community, let alone a way to discuss it in a way that's universally respectful.

A requisite disclaimer: we're all playing a game here. Responding to my personal opinions or any others' on a sensitive subject like this, please try to remain respectful, as I am doing my best too.

[DreamOfCream]

For those who have not played the Underdark in a good while, I highly encourage y'all to try it out. Make a secret alt and dish out some cool war mongering monster you've been wanting to play! From experience, the UD is full of welcoming players, eager to embark on adventures, raids and epic plots. Players/characters you do not want to RP with can be easily avoided.

[Daedin]

Suggestions belong in the suggestions board and the tone of - wait. I no longer do this! * Runs around in joyous circles. Waving his arms. Naked.*

Anyway, I will likely make an underdarker as my next carácter, and as an advice for anyone thinking of doing so: -notells is your BFF.

Also, as for the op...everyone has replied accordingly.

[Whitewood]

Ooooooook. . .Starting a thread to let people discuss things about the underdark and expressing what i kinda thought. . .only too.. Get jumped and get venom in my face at every turn . .
Thanks. .

Mith, you can lock or just delete this thread, since it doesnt really relate to anything and only contains flaming.

[Seekeepeek]

UD love <3 <3 <3. Just follow your imagination Devs, you been doing a wondrous job and still is! Much kudos ! Hail Arelith! Nothing like creating something people love and praise, and that, - you have done!

[Kuma]

Thats your anwser, and the wizard npcs explaination is just kinda a lamed out reponse to me

it

no

dude

That's the truth. That's what happened. That's literally what happened. I played down there post-Cataclysm and post-Flooding, early on in both cases.

Mith, you can lock or just delete this thread, since it doesnt really relate to anything and only contains flaming.

The only thing flaming in this thread is me, what you're perceiving as flaming is incredibly well-put though hilariously long-winded opinion from two players. Even if you take away only one point from their collective responses, let it be realisation that the dev team have poured their heart and god damn soul into the Underdark for the past year or so particularly, when the other alternative was something approaching turning the UD into nothing but a dungeon.

[Black Wendigo]

There are a LOT more people who appreciate the changes in the UD and what the devs are trying to do down there than there are those who whine about what I see as nit picky things. The UD is not a static project. It is an ongoing developing environment. Is it perfect? Well, it doesn't matter. What matters is that if one would give alternatives to things they object to, one is more likely to get a positive response.

There is constructive criticism (with possible solutions) and there is whining. If you are going to just slam someone's hard work or appear to be doing so, one is going to get the same right back and nothing will be accomplished. And no I am not saying which category the OP belongs in. People can decide that for themselves.

This is hardly the only time this has happened and it's not just the UD that gets unfairly criticized. In fact, I've seen a LOT of things get the same treatment.

[Yma23]

I know I probably shouldn't join the crowd but in this case. I'm not flaming you Whitewood - and honestly maybe there are things in the UD that need changing. I'm sure the Devs are always up for hearing ideas! But the way you put it is...
Well - I hate to put it like this- but it's just incorrect. The underdark has had absolutly -massive- changes with the founding of Andunor. Utterly humungus. Not only a massive revamp in terms of areas, their own centeral, humungus and very impressive city, but also entirely new mechanical options and playable races (Slaves, Outcasts). Not to mention new resources (The Tinkers, for example). To say 'I think the Spiders Web also needs an update' Is entirely fair. Maybe it does? I'm ambivilent either way. But to use that as a benchmark of how 'nothing has changed' is... well. Sadly mistaken. And I think that's what's gotten people a bit rhiled.
That said - if you want to turn this into something more constructive - why not say things that you -would- like to see? You never know it may be listened to. Though - thinking about it, the suggestion area is probably better for that.

[Whitewood]

I wasn't originally going to post again due to all this negativity, but.
Everyone has missed the initial intent of this thread, picking parts of what i said and turned it into a negative blender, with me in it.

I'm an old player, not necessarily as old as others but still.

I never said nothing has changed.
In no way shape or form am i whining and or complaining about what the devs have done.
Again, you all have taken things i said and turned it into a negative vibe.

I was attempting to express thoughts about an area i saw, that i didn't think has changed much and potentially shouldn't belong there.
However, i now believe i'm done posting for awhile.

Making this topic so that things about the Underdark, what we'd like to see in the Underdark, and what needs to be changed in the Underdark can be discussed.

[DestroyerOTN]

Everyone has missed the initial intent of this thread, picking parts of what i said and turned it into a negative blender, with me in it.

you all have taken things i said and turned it into a negative vibe.

Admittedly, you did have a decidedly negative tone itself! You can't blame people for saying what was said. Granted, on a re-read, I could see how you could've simply been trying to be pragmatic.

Since we're already at it, I will echo everyone else on it being good. The UD is -very- much good, and your second post really over exaggerated the situation down there. However, I will agree there is no perfection - not that the surface is, either; but that's why we've the suggestion's thread.
Vippin, your post was beautiful and summary. As someone who has moved between the Underdark and Surface twice (played two characters that interacted with both~); I will confirm that the dynamic, how one plays their character, and their perspective on the entire server changes when you explore both sides.

There's no server based favoritism though, not either way; a lot of people think it, but the Devs aren't conspiring to ignore any corner of us just because the DMs have - historically - not been around much. They're not perfect, sure, but the community is half the game. Note the word: It's a game, and we're all here to create stories for everyone, regardless of who it is or what stigma exists to their name.

People undervalue those words. I believe there are people that can confirm that allowing bitterness, doubt, and lack of trust in others made -me- want to drop a few times; but it really matters.

I believe myself proud to say that my character operates across all three servers, and that I find a certain charm in all of them. (Even Cordor, despite Death Mortis' unyielding paperwork).

That said, if you have a qualm with how something is; aforementioned suggestion forum exists. There doesn't really seem to be any concurrent discussion on the topic of the Web specifically; and if we're just having a place as an idea depository? Throwing one or two in there'd be nice. If you've a specific idea you want discussed, a discussion thread on your idea would be far more in tone.

Make it about a single idea, so that we don't go into all-encompassing threads. Makes discussion mediation much cleaner

Less likely to end up like threads with the UD tend to: which is, more or less, like threads on Alignment, moral relativity, and how to RP a class. They break down quickly - someone gets negative, people flood over the negativity, and the point drains.

I have my own suggestions Underdark-wise, however, and I have been neglecting to post them on account of contributing to the latest topic of discussion on 5%s. I may see them on the forum later this evening, but I figure there's no point in re-routing this topic now, though.

Just remember, folks; be mindful how one responds. Mistakes get made, cans of worms open; and when they do, it's hard to get those buggers back in - for they are slimy, sightless, and unpleasant to the touch.

[Izaich]

From a technical perspective, recycling game assets is a useful way to reintroduce older areas and open up time for the dev team to work on newer ideas. This is not a bad thing at all! It lets the developers work on the things that interest them, and introduce their vision to the community that much faster.

There are actually several instances where this has been done on Arelith, to a much greater extent than the Spider's Web. Interestingly, the majority of examples that come to mind are taverns/inns! Slight nostalgia spoilers ahead, but nothing serious.

1. Restful Mind used to be located on the far side of the lake. When moved, little to none of the interior was changed. This move was not explained.

2. The Nomad used to be where the Temple of the Triad currently is. The two locations were swapped, and little explanation was ever given.

3. The Mayfields is the most interesting example, because it actually existed outside of Kohlingen back in the early days of the server. It then disappeared for quite some time before it was eventually reintroduced, NPCs and all, to the route north of Cordor. It was then moved again when the Arcane Tower was updated. No explanation was given on three of these occasions.

4. The Arcane Tower has also been moved multiple times. Granted, in the Tower's case, each move was supported by the story element that the wizards could teleport it at a whim. It's been in the Forest of Despair, Cordor, and in two locations within the Brambles.

The lack of explanation is actually cool, because it lets players develop their own theories and ideas. The notion that the Tower could be teleported was initially coined by the Tower's playerbase. They elaborated on the idea by suggesting that the Tower itself was actually completely empty; the front door transported visitors into a demi-plane. This explained that through all its renditions, it had the same layout. Keep in mind, it was players that formed this explanation. That's very interesting.

So let's do the same for the Spider's Web right now. Drow are an ancient race. They live for a considerable length of time, and often die violent and unexpected deaths. Perhaps they prefer their place of leisure to remain a traditional space, resistant to change and alteration. Despite the rise and fall of countless societies, they could rely on a single place, the Spider's Web, to remain the same regardless of how much the outside world changed. With this sentiment in mind, the proprietor of the Web has gone to considerable lengths to ensure that his tavern always has the same layout regardless of where it is. Bit like how all MacDonalds have similar aesthetic and layout. (EDIT: Should be noted MowerQueen suggested something similar earlier in the thread)

[Ork]

All this talk of dissolving the UD is frightening. I've played primarily in the UD for a year or so now, and haven't witnessed any of this vitriol commented above. I feel like I've got to defend the RP down here, as I can say without a doubt, in my multiple years on Arelith, it has been some of my best. Yes, there are some bad apples, but that's not an exclusively UD trait.

I am grateful to be able to play in this environment that has seen some of the most dynamic changes in Arelith history. The underdark has continually grown from when I feel in love during the Xun'viir reign to the current era of turmoil — if anything, NOW is the time to join the Underdark and have an impact on the game.

In regards to the areas, it is easy to become disenfranchised when the only UD you know is the new one. If you've ever experienced the old UD, this conversation wouldn't exist. The devs have obviously poured heart and soul into this area, from the awesomeness of Andunor to the new dynamic "weather". The place feels alive.

I'd pose, if you want change, be that change. "Wizards did it" needs no further justification in D&D.

[JediMindTrix]

All this talk of dissolving the UD is frightening.

Unless it comes out of a staff member's mouth, don't fret.