Clarlification on "Language"

[CragOneEye]

Guys,

We're a family-friendly server.

Which makes the amount of swearing that's happening in game right now unacceptable.

If you want to swear IC, use something creative and setting appropriate, and avoid words that you wouldn't (or shouldn't) use in front of a family with kids.

Thank you,


-Mith

-This- I feel requires clarification. I don't know what constitutes as to "family friendly" in the UK, but here in North America, "Family Friendly" would imply that the server is either "G" or "PG" rated, and my understanding is that the server is "PG 13" rated. And most PG 13 rated movies here in North America has swearing.

In some cases even a "PG" rated film will have an odd swear here or there.He Original Transformers movie (The 80's animated one) not the Michael Bay ones, was rated either "G" or "PG" and had stricter standards back then but also used the word "shit" once in the film. Is why I feel there needs to be black and white standards as to what you mean Smith on what is inappropriate language.

Also needs to be clarification in does this mean that the server has gone from PG 13 to PG? or G? If it is now considered to a "Family Friendly" server?

If we are going with "G" or PG" censorship then I feel that there should be new clarification on rules for Torture RP to be put in place as well, we should no longer allow for "fade to black" no hinting to sex period, just romance.

[Swirling Stars]

I was also under the impression, being American myself, that if you censored the actual word with something more subtle then it was alright? I consistently see people using the word 'shite' instead of 's**t'. And vice versa for other swear words.

I wasn't even aware that using 'shite' was breaking the rules at all until I got talked to by a dm the other day, which I am thankful for as I had no idea.

But now that you make that point Crag, I think that would be great for the team to define clearly. I've seen people use an array of colorful words. From 'w**re' to 'focking' and all inbetween.

Pg-13 here in the states almsot /always/ includes at least one or two swear words, though admittedly the words are usually the lighter side of the vast array out there. Like D**n and S**t.

Anyway that's my two-sense, I censored myself just in case.

[Whitewood]

Remember that we're in a forgotten realms dark-age renaissance era setting.
Everyday life was varied, and had their own special way of cussing, expressing words, phrases and accents.
Just spit out some random. . .dark age oriented curse word, etc and im sure you'll do fine.

[Cortex]

I'm more curious about words that were used back then and can still be used today with ill-intent context. See: "I ploughed ya mother."

[The GrumpyCat]

I considter s**t and it's various mutations a swear word. I do not consider it as strong a swear word as some others, but it is still profanity.

Please limit it as much as possible.

[Death Above All Else]

My best thought on it:

If you don't know if the word you intend on using will violate the rules or not, just do not use it. Take the time to think of something else to say.

[UUD-40]

ET (rated PG) has more profanity in its 121 minute running time than I typically use in character (or even see) in a 4-12 hour play session. This includes two uses of the word "shit", two uses of the word "bitch," and a handful of other more colorful phrases that are direct genital/sex act references.

We definitely need a better idea of what the server's expectation of "family friendly" is - especially considering the level of violence we allow on the server (as well as the gore that is explicitly visually built into the actual model.)

[CragOneEye]

I should also clarify my point, in why we need a concrete distinction on what is needed on this server, "I" for one would -never- allow any of my five year old children watch -any- movies rated PG 13, around at the age of 10 I would allow it up for negotiations as to what movies are allowed and not allowed. But my point in Canada and in the use it's called PG 13 for reason and that being is children of ages 12 or under are not allowed to watch those movies without adult supervision. And 13 above can.

[Kuma]

I've always been of the belief that "creative" curses like "By Elminster's Beard!" or even the 2e canon ones just sound way too fantastical and impossible to use an in actually surprising or life-threatening situation, or lack any sort of punch to them. Furthermore, the the main NWN campaign has prostitutes, the voicesets have some mild swearing in them, the server has a ton of mildly humourous sex references, etc etc. This server is a PG-13 server, except then it's just without the language or the sex, some the hell how. Just the violence.

It's really impossible to define, and so we have to go by the announcement. I'd rather go by the announcement of common sense and I trust that the DMs aren't going to slap you in the head with an RPR drop for a legitimate misinterpretation, unless it's happening constantly from you- I would rather go by that, because the alternative is that Mith creates a distressingly specific, bullet-pointed outline that is way too kiddy for anyone's tastes.

Either that or we bump it up to something like a British 15 rating, but I'd... actually support that, myself.

[Lorkas]

Here's a list of the curses in the soundsets in game, if it helps. Most of these are safe enough I think, so we can aim for things like this perhaps when we need to curse in game. They get the point across.

Code: Select all

Well that's... just... dandy!
Takasi! Oh, excuse my elven.
Blast!
Fools!
Dammit!
Death and damnation!
Chaos and confusion!
Damnation!
By the hells!
Rrrazza my... son of a... rrghr!
By all that is... ugh!
Blood of the gods!
Damn it all!
Shadow and hell....!
Damnation, damnation!
Mother of all...!
God's take this...!
By all that's right!
By all the... ugh!
That.. is so... frustrating!
Well buttons and barndoors!
Ohhh!
Rrgh.. this is...URGHH!!
By all the hells!
Son of a troll...
Damn your eyes.
Why do the spirits forsake me!
Ooo, that just makes me so MAD!
Well, that's just spectacular.
This is most... unfortunate.
Gadzooks!
Someone will pay for this!
I am almost tempted to swear.
May the nine hells take my soul!
Oh that make Deekin so-oooo mad!!
By Clangeddin's beard!
Oh, fiddlesticks!
Shar take you!
Shar's blight on you, fool!
Damn!
Boiling blood and swinging swords!
By the healer's staff!
Son of she wolf!
Pufferfish of a juggling ogre!
By the arch-wizard's eyebrows!
Tyr's folly!
By Uthgar's blood!
Vith Usstan!
Oh bugger!
By the pits of hell!

The FR Wiki and Candlekeep forums also have a dictionary of words in Common, and a couple curse words are listed there that probably wouldn't set off any immediate reactions:

Code: Select all

Badaulder: - Balderdash, hogwash, nonsense, etc.
Galad!: - Heartlands word meaning something akin to "Gadzooks!" or "Zounds!"
Haularake: - God-dammit.
Hrast (or the southern hrammar): - Damn
Naeth/naed (or the southern orbal): - Dung (exclamation)
Sabruin: - Get lost or up yours (v. harsh)
Stlarn: - Polite equivalent of F-word (about as blasphemous as "darn" used where we might say "screw" or "screwing" (stlarning) "They can't kell anything without stlarning up!", "Stlarning bandits!"
Tluin: - Rude equivalen of F-word

If I'm playing a nonhuman race I like to think of what sorts of things their race might consider to be worth uttering as a curse. I read somewhere about dwarves and gnomes (stonecutting cultures) using "Shards!" as a curse, and I have used "Splinters!" on a halfling for similar reasons.

[CragOneEye]

Here's a list of the curses in the soundsets in game, if it helps. Most of these are safe enough I think, so we can aim for things like this perhaps when we need to curse in game. They get the point across.

Code: Select all

Well that's... just... dandy!
Takasi! Oh, excuse my elven.
Blast!
Fools!
Dammit!
Death and damnation!
Chaos and confusion!
Damnation!
By the hells!
Rrrazza my... son of a... rrghr!
By all that is... ugh!
Blood of the gods!
Damn it all!
Shadow and hell....!
Damnation, damnation!
Mother of all...!
God's take this...!
By all that's right!
By all the... ugh!
That.. is so... frustrating!
Well buttons and barndoors!
Ohhh!
Rrgh.. this is...URGHH!!
By all the hells!
Son of a troll...
Damn your eyes.
Why do the spirits forsake me!
Ooo, that just makes me so MAD!
Well, that's just spectacular.
This is most... unfortunate.
Gadzooks!
Someone will pay for this!
I am almost tempted to swear.
May the nine hells take my soul!
Oh that make Deekin so-oooo mad!!
By Clangeddin's beard!
Oh, fiddlesticks!
Shar take you!
Shar's blight on you, fool!
Damn!
Boiling blood and swinging swords!
By the healer's staff!
Son of she wolf!
Pufferfish of a juggling ogre!
By the arch-wizard's eyebrows!
Tyr's folly!
By Uthgar's blood!
Vith Usstan!
Oh bugger!
By the pits of hell!

The FR Wiki and Candlekeep forums also have a dictionary of words in Common, and a couple curse words are listed there that probably wouldn't set off any immediate reactions:

Code: Select all

Badaulder: - Balderdash, hogwash, nonsense, etc.
Galad!: - Heartlands word meaning something akin to "Gadzooks!" or "Zounds!"
Haularake: - God-dammit.
Hrast (or the southern hrammar): - Damn
Naeth/naed (or the southern orbal): - Dung (exclamation)
Sabruin: - Get lost or up yours (v. harsh)
Stlarn: - Polite equivalent of F-word (about as blasphemous as "darn" used where we might say "screw" or "screwing" (stlarning) "They can't kell anything without stlarning up!", "Stlarning bandits!"
Tluin: - Rude equivalen of F-word

If I'm playing a nonhuman race I like to think of what sorts of things their race might consider to be worth uttering as a curse. I read somewhere about dwarves and gnomes (stonecutting cultures) using "Shards!" as a curse, and I have used "Splinters!" on a halfling for similar reasons.

You forgot some such as "Pike off" and "I thought I told you to pike off window licker"

Or "Puss mongering dog eater"

Then there's the drow phrase "Vith Dos" which literally translates to F*^K You!

Then let us not forget Tiamat's and Umberlee's titles i.e. Dragon bitch and the Bitch Queen.

[HurinWillSmite]

Don't say feck or fock or whatever instead of the f-word. It's not even clever. And you don't get any badasspoints for saying it. Missspelling cursewords isn't clever.

[Lorkas]

I have never interpreted people writing those to be misspelling, but rather as a character accent.

I mean, when my dwarf says "Hail airthkin" it isn't because I can't spell "earthkin", it's to help people read things in my character's accent. If I ever did use the f-word with him (which I won't), I would probably spell it with an o, because that's probably how he would say it.

[CragOrion]

Frack is better, because its also a BSG reference *nodnod*

[Mithreas]

Everything in the soundsets is fine (including stuff like "damn" or "damnation" - which has a much more resonant meaning in the setting).

Avoid stuff that's stronger than that, or use Faerun equivalents (e.g. I have no problem with Vith).

Ultimately, though, as with most other rules questions, if you're not sure whether you're OK or not, you should probably not do whatever you're thinking about.

[CragOneEye]

Everything in the soundsets is fine (including stuff like "damn" or "damnation" - which has a much more resonant meaning in the setting).

Avoid stuff that's stronger than that, or use Faerun equivalents (e.g. I have no problem with Vith).

Ultimately, though, as with most other rules questions, if you're not sure whether you're OK or not, you should probably not do whatever you're thinking about.

My problem is as UUD-40 put it and he/she put it clearer than I ever could:

ET (rated PG) has more profanity in its 121 minute running time than I typically use in character (or even see) in a 4-12 hour play session. This includes two uses of the word "shit", two uses of the word "bitch," and a handful of other more colorful phrases that are direct genital/sex act references.

We definitely need a better idea of what the server's expectation of "family friendly" is - especially considering the level of violence we allow on the server (as well as the gore that is explicitly visually built into the actual model.)

And the understanding is that it's a PG13 server, if this is no longer the case, then there should be an official statement, stating such so that there is no longer any more confusion, is my point. And that there should be an official statement of what -now- is acceptable not just in terms of language but also in terms of violence, and what is describe in emotes, as I seen even during PvE combat some gory detailed emotes. As well -if- we're going to say it's now a G- PG rated server, sexual content should be reduced, i.e. no more fade to blacks like you see in soap operas.

Frack is better, because its also a BSG reference *nodnod*

Random tid-bit it was first originally a Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy reference, and the reference likely is even older than that.

[Mithreas]

PG-13 doesn't have a single definition - it varies a bit in different jurisdictions. NWN and its sequel, for example, have a Teen rating (i.e. PG-13) and avoid using any swearing.

But don't try and rules-lawyer this, please - it's a very simple request and very simple to comply with, and it's not negotiable.

[JediMindTrix]

[CookieMonster]

I really don't understand the difficulty people are having in grasping Mith's request. Their really is no place in our world for people to be telling others to "F--- off" and comments like "What a load of shit".

If your looking for loop holes and technical ways around Mith's request maybe you should try and think for a while why you have such a desperate need to swear IG? My own opinion is that players who swear are just too lazy to come up with imaginative ways to curse without being offensive.

[Kuma]

The idea that swearing is a sign of a weak vocabulary, low intelligence or simple laziness is just idiotic. I utterly refuse to believe that any motivation behind Mithreas' announcement has anything to do with the quality of the language we use or encouraging others to use a higher vocabulary. I have never in my entire life found a correlation between swearing and vocabulary, save perhaps that those I know who swear the most tend to have a better grasp of language than those who don't.

Instead, this is purely about keeping a game involving copious blood, violence, mental torture, prostitution, sexual innuendo and more free from swearing because that is somehow worse, according to our Americanised thoughts behind censorship and child-rearing. My wording here is implying that this is somehow a bad thing: I believe it is, but I accept the ruling and will comply. It won't stop me pointing out the inherent contradictions therein, though. Especially when it's commonly understood that the voicesets frequently cut out before outright saying "son of a bitch", or similar, or worse, and that "vith" in the Drow language literally means the f-word. A mild aside, when I say the "f-word", you know exactly what I'm saying, and you're hearing it in your head. Censoring, or adjusting the "accent" to get away with it (I'm looking at you, dwarves) means that you are basically just saying the thing. And if that's somehow permitted*, then why bother with the restrictions at all?

*which i'm fairly sure it's not, now

[Yma23]

Hello! I'm a linguist! I did it in University so I feel relitivly well autherised to say the following - mostly in agreement with the above.

1) The use of swearing is in no way linked to bad imagination. Swear words are words just like any other, and can be used with great beauty and effect
2) Saying 'Don't use these swear words because they arn't medievil' is also not a good argument. C**t for example is a very authentic medi-evil word. There's a street in london, dating back to the medievil times, called GropeC**t lane where prostitutes used to gather. If you want to argue we shouldn't use such language because it's not authentic, then the C word is utterly fine. But it isn't.

The real reason for the swearing thing is quite simply this - the PG13 system. Because yes, we DO have children playing this server. People of 13 or less. And the more we swear, the more likely it is that a parent will catch on and complain bitterly to Mith or, worse still, the authrotities.

Is the line where swearing is 'acceptable' or not fuzzy? Sadly it is. The biggest problem is that different nations/people/states have different comprehensions about what is swearing and what isn't. If I go to visit my fatheron the Isle of Lewis, he warns me not to use words like 'bloody' or 'bugger' or 'damn' or 'god' because these are considered heretical swear words. Yet in most other parts of england these are the mildest of the mildest words.

With all that being said - using a little imagination, and digging into some old medievil swearwords can help work around a situation if you are desperate to swear. Tosspot has always been a favorite of mine.

I don't wanna say 'Never swear' but I do think it's best for everyone if they keep it to an absolute miniumum and try and think of ways around it. Not because it's lazy or unauthentic, but because it could just get the server in trouble.

[Kuma]

Eh, no, it can't get the server in trouble. Cybering, yes, swearing, no.

[P Three]

The idea that swearing is a sign of a weak vocabulary, low intelligence or simple laziness is just idiotic. I utterly refuse to believe that any motivation behind Mithreas' announcement has anything to do with the quality of the language we use or encouraging others to use a higher vocabulary. I have never in my entire life found a correlation between swearing and vocabulary, save perhaps that those I know who swear the most tend to have a better grasp of language than those who don't.

Instead, this is purely about keeping a game involving copious blood, violence, mental torture, prostitution, sexual innuendo and more free from swearing because that is somehow worse, according to our Americanised thoughts behind censorship and child-rearing. My wording here is implying that this is somehow a bad thing: I believe it is, but I accept the ruling and will comply. It won't stop me pointing out the inherent contradictions therein, though. Especially when it's commonly understood that the voicesets frequently cut out before outright saying "son of a bitch", or similar, or worse, and that "vith" in the Drow language literally means the f-word. A mild aside, when I say the "f-word", you know exactly what I'm saying, and you're hearing it in your head. Censoring, or adjusting the "accent" to get away with it (I'm looking at you, dwarves) means that you are basically just saying the thing. And if that's somehow permitted*, then why bother with the restrictions at all?

*which i'm fairly sure it's not, now

This. While I totally grasp and support the intent of the rule, and I do try hard not to let my own "The f-bomb is not a word, it's a comma" mentality sneak in, this. Swearing is in no way a mark of intellect, creativity, or the lack of either. While my personal kid could swear in three languages (but didn't because she knew it wasn't allowed) before she hit kindergarten, I also get that not everyone is as liberal with their kids as I am. So yes. It's a good rule, as a parent, and like Kuma, I'm on board. It just....contradicts with having rampant violence and Sharessan festhalls and Sabel the hooker and wizards using domination to torture people.

Also crunkenwagen.

[Black Wendigo]

It's not a question of whether it's appropriate to use swearing. It's a matter of using such on the server. We have been told that it's not appropriate, or more important the -level- of swearing is not appropriate. WE have been given reason for this. So it should not be a problem to simply not use such words or misspellings that amount to the same thing.

There is no reason for a player to have his char swear actually, as there are many euphemisms that can convey the same level of offense but without the words that actually offend in real life. One trick I often use in my half orcs is to emote *curses in orcish* or try to come up with some clever joke " I'd tell you what I think but being a man of dignity I just can't". I find it MUCH more fun this way.

[CragOneEye]

It's not as grey as everyone thinks, Mith gave which parameters he's basing it off of, which is the ESRB's ratings, more specifically the TEEN rating and here they for everyone to see:

"Content is generally suitable for ages 13 and up. May contain violence, suggestive themes, crude humor, minimal blood, simulated gambling and/or infrequent use of strong language."

The link below has ESRB's other ratings to contrast the difference between the ratings so people know what is acceptable and not acceptable.

http://www.esrb.org/ratings/ratings_guide.jsp

And think you Mith that's all I really wanted was a clear answer, not a loophole or to be a rules lawyer.