Some thoughts on the "Eternal Battle" and consequence.

[LurkingShadow]

I'm all for spending a day or so limping about every time my PC dies, but I think it's silly to think that people should avoid events for the sake of it. There's a point where being able to hobble over to the festival that's been planned for an irl month is just... fun? That thing we're all here for?

But I do agree that being completely blasé is also silly.

Yes, yes, I know that memory rules exist, but there is so much more to the rp around death and recovering from it than "SOMEONE KILLED ME"

People absolutely should go to events that they have been looking forward to. However, if you know your brother's wedding is in two hours and it leaves you just enough time to do a quick raid, then maybe consider if doing that raid is really what you should be doing. Yes, someone may be involuntarily a victim, but in my experience, that is not often.

It feels a bit irritating to readd braggart notes from the Underdark. Sometimes they get defeated on the surface, to no consequences what so ever it seems. While one failed defense or counter attack by the surface renders in slavery or executions. The attacks by the UD? They are slowly turning into griefing. What is the goal here beyon just killing people for fun? There need to be consequences for the Underdark aswell. That prisoner system that been hinted at need to be implemented.

That or NPCs need to react and hunt down outcasts and monster races. NPC leaders like the Founders Council need to mobilize and rally the levies. Cordors king should call for the Amnians to start sacking and burning down Andunorian ties and convoys. Something need to happen.

EDIT: And yes, people will say thats "not okay" and "No fun". But the surfacers in the UD is outcasts for a reason and the Underdark is not ever unified for long for a reason.

Please, let us be civil here and not throw away one side's efforts to create engaging roleplay. Saying it resembles griefing is really unjustified...

If people are tired of an eternal conflict, then there are ways to end it in an ICly manner. It would be dishonest to dismiss that fact but it may involve taking the story down some avenues where one side does not come out on top as the victor.

It is a dynamic world of roleplaying. Death should have consequences, good does not always prevail, but it may rise from the ashes and reclaim its past glory.

The most lore hostile turn of event is if the UD conquers the surface. The powers that be would not let this happen and this is how it sounds when there is Drow posting about suffocating and isolating Myon. Trust me, my main has not good terms with Myon but how is this a good thing? The surface won battles against the UD but no one really takes the consequences and stops attacking or "dies", dies as in stops striking at the surface. But now when the UD won a few battles, suddenly it is time to talk about "one side must lose"?

How is PvP engaging? It is not engaging one bit and only caters to people that mechanically knows the system like their own pockets inside, and that is not counting all those thousands of balance changes as mentioned above.

I see no RP in PvP engagements that is engaging most of the time. From a ooc perspective, I do not see how PVP and the demands will push any type of RP beyond a hostile and aggressive enviroment that caters to murdering a bunch of PCs until they roll or leave the server.

It is a FOIG situation but I do not see what the Andunorian horde want out of this whole scenario beyond isolating a settlement and a ooc of constant war and PvP which will tire the community and have people leave. I know those exist on both sides. But only one maye take slaves/prisoners. This might create RP people will say. But in the long run all it does is create more conflict and PVP as people will try to save their friends and family. This is a circle of never ending conflict.

[Fallout]

I like the idea of underdarkers "owning the night" on surface as that creates RP, and People should be feared of the night and what lurks there, organising some kind of "Nightwatch" could be fun, i like that i need to tako care now venturing around alone during the nights.

As for PVP outcome would be fun to see more creativity from both sides-i hope this thread helps. Think what you give to captive to think about once its freed, also you as defeated one what you take from this with you to further the RP.

I am not fond of "we murdered' even as its true, but maybe "we beaten" is more fun for all....also, i see nothing wrong in UDers bringing pile of corpses (RPing not actually having them) but also surface having monster head on the spike....furthering the RP in their regions.

What I want to say is....we need "several corpses-fixture" dear DEVs. (models are there right?)

Regarding encaunter, important is to be nice and give a story with it to the opposite after all icly they are enemies but oocly we are partners and friends in this game and we should, and can do even better and more creative.

[LurkingShadow]

I like the idea of underdarkers "owning the night" on surface as that creates RP, and People should be feared of the night and what lurks there, organising some kind of "Nightwatch" could be fun, i like that i need to tako care now venturing around alone during the nights.

As for PVP outcome would be fun to see more creativity from both sides-i hope this thread helps. Think what you give to captive to think about once its freed, also you as defeated one what you take from this with you to further the RP.

I am not fond of "we murdered' even as its true, but maybe "we beaten" is more fun for all....also, i see nothing wrong in UDers bringing pile of corpses (RPing not actually having them) but also surface having monster head on the spike....furthering the RP in their regions.

What I want to say is....we need "several corpses-fixture" dear DEVs. (models are there right?)

Regarding encaunter, important is to be nice and give a story with it to the opposite after all icly they are enemies but oocly we are partners and friends in this game and we should, and can do even better and more creative.

Thats a legit hilarious fixture to have! And you're right with the end paragraph aswell.

[Power Word, Haste]

People should be feared of the night and what lurks there, organising some kind of "Nightwatch" could be fun, i like that i need to tako care now venturing around alone during the nights.

I agree on this, and around a year ago when Underdark raids had an upswing in frequency, I found myself actually looking at the time and thinking ahead about where I needed to go and how I will get there because I was actually worried about what might be in the night ready to attack me. I felt really immersed, and my character along with plenty others I knew would go on nightly patrols around well travelled areas to make sure nothing was amiss.

[Fallout]

Thats a legit hilarious fixture to have! And you're right with the end paragraph aswell.

Yep, would give a chance for underdarkers to RP ceremonies, DMs to possible react, but also if fixture is for tool long out there to spread the plague (Like once Krasza the goblin).

Surface (with Harpers) can come down and recover the bodies and actually organise good event in some if Surface Temples too.

Even "surface evil" could use "defeat" to estract souls for the rituals as Infernalist, or Banites for necromancy if many are collected several times to organise undead scourge, wild dwarfs can simply eat them.

Maybe both sides work on somethig like this already, just tossing ideas as critique dont get us far, in roleplay there is only one side.

P.S.
Ofc no names of players on corpses pile fixture "Cordor army" or "Andunor army" would be fine.

[LurkingShadow]

Thats a legit hilarious fixture to have! And you're right with the end paragraph aswell.

Yep, would give a chance for underdarkers to RP ceremonies, DMs to possible react, but also if fixture is for tool long out there to spread the plague (Like once Krasza the goblin).

Surface (with Harpers) can come down and recover the bodies and actually organise good event in some if Surface Temples too.

Even "surface evil" could use "defeat" to estract souls for the rituals as Infernalist, or Banites for necromancy if many are collected several times to organise undead scourge, wild dwarfs can simply eat them.

Maybe both sides work on somethig like this already, just tossing ideas as critique dont get us far, in roleplay there is only one side.

P.S.
Ofc no names of players on corpses pile fixture "Cordor army" or "Andunor army" would be fine.

That would be something. Maybe put that up in the suggestion box? Those fixtures?

[Royal Blood]

I've seen it repeated a few times that the surface cannot take prisoners or slaves? Idk about the prisoner part but they could do slavery.

I've found both surface and UD to be fairly good at like trying to expand the story in the midst of pvp.

Like 2 issues though.

1; There is no mechanical way to determine success. No way to like impact the server. The only thing is a vague goal that maybe your enemies take seriously all to often the only way to be taken seriously is to show a prowess for pvp.

2: There isn't any 'end game' content in my opinion. All the epic dungeons are on grind. Sometimes you can do them solo with the right class.

Of course pvp is the center focus of end game content. It's the only tool players are given that moves the story anywhere and the only thing that's interesting after finishing all the pve content.

I think if there was more to do that was like challenging and meaningful pvp would take more of a back seat.

Edit: my character has led 2 raids ever in her long existence. They were essential to building her like authority in the UD. I think the RP for them was great before and after. So what I mean though is no evil plot or otherwise would be taken seriously if the UD wasn't dangerous. It feels like you have to pvp to get attention.

[The GrumpyCat]

A few things.

This is an INCREADIBLY complex topic. It's an intersting one to discuss and have at it, but remember there's a lot of moving parts to consider in the whole, up to and including
*Mechancial Consquences for Death - Freedom to play concept vs Ability to enforce Consequences
*How we roleplay typical 'good' and 'evil' (Touching on the ability for uders to take slaves and such -that was possible on the surface to ofor a bit, but was rejected because of how it viciously tarnished the reputations of the areas that allowed it. The problem isn't enforcing more options as DMs as much as it's about players allowing these options to exist. Also braudly speaking Evil characters are less likely to openly roleplay weakness, such as might come from a beating/torture/ect or care about it in others. So when the good guys get beaten you hear about it more... because they CARE about it more)
*How to keep general 'monsterious' rolplay - yet allow some form of interaction that isn't just PvP.
*As others have pointed out (and I agree with) Leveling is fast, there's a lack of 'end game' stuff to keep people entertained, so people go to PvP. Fair enough. What do we do then? Make leveling slower? That will have its own backlash
*Ability for Dms to properly and fairly oversee PvP/Raids/Hostilities.
*Mechanical changes to lessen raids vs rules changes - issues with enforcement there, issues with accusations of favoritism, also issues (especially in terms of mechanics) with how they might limit roleplay. For example if we turned the 'kill scripts' back on - this would stop raids on settlments yes, but would also prevent ANY movement of UDers in settlments. Do we want that?
*'The Underdark' and 'The Surface' are not single harmogenous beings. They're full of seperate factions. What may seem as 'underdarkers raiding every night' may be seven factions each raiding once a week or some such. In an extreme example.

As I said - this is a REALLY complex topic. Please don't get angry at one another because I sincearly believe that it's not one that can be navigated easily.

[Amateur Hour]

I would encourage adding more parameters to dying, especially if this happens to be done by another player. It's honestly needed at this point where a large scale of people do not respect death. They can do incredibly risky things, then end up dying and fifteen minutes later join in on a social event acting as if nothing had happened.

A more punishing system could absolutely work; it works outside of Arelith, so why wouldn't it work here?

Perhaps a bit of a lighter-weight take on the core point:

It sort of boggles my mind when we have military leaders on one side of the Surface/UD conflict who keep dying/losing and yet they're still trusted with power. Maybe people don't have to stay dead, but perhaps they should be resigning from the military part of the job if this ends up being a consistent pattern.

Absolutely this, but since death has practically no consequences, leading your army into defeat also has no real consequence.

Leading your army into defeat may not have a tangible unavoidable impact to the characters involved, but one wonders what it brings to the story when it's "This week, on Cordor Capers" style serialized repetitive conflict (not to dunk on Cordor; you just had an easy name to make a catchy title from).

I guess my point is you don't have to kill off a beloved important character because you lost a lot or because your character ended up walking into a curse-trap for the fourth time this month, but maybe you should consider what kind of story you're telling when your characters keep making decisions that end in disaster but their behavior or thinking doesn't change. WIS 6 (the lowest I think any build can go? And it's not many characters walking around with WIS 6) may have a negative modifier, but WIS 6 doesn't mean your character is completely incapable of self-reflection, particularly when a lesson is repeatedly beaten into their head.

[Eira]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like the proposed solution for neverending battle/pvp without losers apparently showing enough of consequences for losing is to... have more UD raids? And more pvp to answer that to get back bodies and prisoners? And vice versa?

Is the main issue really that characters don't feel scared enough of walking alone at night?

My limited powers of future sight make me think that it will only lead to less weight of death/losing, more lag, and more people getting OOCly annoyed by constant fighting. If you want something to be important, the way to make it so is not by having it happen more frequently. Not only that, but adding corpse pile fixtures would only bring up the exact issue that was solved by switching severed heads to ear trophies.

Finding meaningful rp or joy is much harder when it became a chore after the twelfth round in a row.

[Fallout]

Not only that, but adding corpse pile fixtures would only bring up the exact issue that was solved by switching severed heads to ear trophies.

Thats why i said its a fixture that winning side can make and simply act as if those are some other soldiers that are not players....so its not skull-thing we had with player names, not event mentioned ears, ist fixture like monster head on the stick however i hope with RP around it.

Its just something that can further Temple ceremonies on good and evil sides...or even druids can make them and bring onto some field smash it to feed the earth.

Roleplay is what should be gained from encaunters, also such post-pvp events would feed other players of what happend, i mean if there are 30 players in PVP, how the rest 3000-4000 find out? Message Board? I doubt 50% are reading....ppl remember good RP.

DEVs dont need to give more tools (except corpse fixture), roleplay from the players is the best, i think if there is often encaunters like this on server as its now that is actually the chance to improve...and test things.

[somecritter]

A few things.

This is an INCREADIBLY complex topic. It's an intersting one to discuss and have at it, but remember there's a lot of moving parts to consider in the whole, up to and including
*Mechancial Consquences for Death - Freedom to play concept vs Ability to enforce Consequences
*How we roleplay typical 'good' and 'evil' (Touching on the ability for uders to take slaves and such -that was possible on the surface to ofor a bit, but was rejected because of how it viciously tarnished the reputations of the areas that allowed it. The problem isn't enforcing more options as DMs as much as it's about players allowing these options to exist. Also braudly speaking Evil characters are less likely to openly roleplay weakness, such as might come from a beating/torture/ect or care about it in others. So when the good guys get beaten you hear about it more... because they CARE about it more)
*How to keep general 'monsterious' rolplay - yet allow some form of interaction that isn't just PvP.
*As others have pointed out (and I agree with) Leveling is fast, there's a lack of 'end game' stuff to keep people entertained, so people go to PvP. Fair enough. What do we do then? Make leveling slower? That will have its own backlash
*Ability for Dms to properly and fairly oversee PvP/Raids/Hostilities.
*Mechanical changes to lessen raids vs rules changes - issues with enforcement there, issues with accusations of favoritism, also issues (especially in terms of mechanics) with how they might limit roleplay. For example if we turned the 'kill scripts' back on - this would stop raids on settlments yes, but would also prevent ANY movement of UDers in settlments. Do we want that?
*'The Underdark' and 'The Surface' are not single harmogenous beings. They're full of seperate factions. What may seem as 'underdarkers raiding every night' may be seven factions each raiding once a week or some such. In an extreme example.

As I said - this is a REALLY complex topic. Please don't get angry at one another because I sincearly believe that it's not one that can be navigated easily.

Thank you for highlighting this topic's complexity and some of the points I had not considered!

Another thing I want to point out that may be obvious to some: There are always multiple sides of a conflict, and we continue to hear "Underdark this, Underdark that" but the surface player base is significantly larger and there are plenty of PvP-inclined players there as well, and they may not be so interested in ending an ongoing conflict.

I am glad to hear that there are some who enjoy this narrative, the ongoing story of the dangers of the night. Personally, I find that a very compelling story in the making.

[Rei_Jin]

The conflict between the "sunlands" and the "underdark" is a massive topic, and it is quite complex to navigate.

I play Ner'enthis Shadowclaw, so that those reading have some understanding of my perspective on these things - I lead the Shadowclaw tribe, and have been involved in UD politics for a while now.

And whilst Shadowclaw aren't directly involved in the raids (kobolds might go on them, but Shadowclaw as a group isn't leading them), I know a decent amount about the current groups doing them (yes, there are multiple different factions involved doing things separately to one another), and about the what and the why.

PvP for what is functionally bragging rights is one of the end game activities of Arelith, by design, whether intentional or not. We know that Andunor will never conquer Myon or Cordor, and that Myon or Cordor can never conquer Andunor... it's not about that. But in the absence of much else to do, would we rather people leave the server and not play because they have nothing left to challenge them?

Personally, I prefer to do other things than PvP. It's not my cup of tea.

But I also know that because the setting is what it is, that there will never be an end to conflict between the sunlands and the underdark. And because that conflict will always exist, there will always be fighting.

Now, if someone wanted to try to organise a more genteel way to resolve things, say, if a representative of the sunlands wanted to meet with the general of Andunor to discuss a grand games where the greatest warriors from both above and below were to compete, for the ultimate glory of being declared the strongest in the isle along with some prizes, and that this would give both sides a cease to raiding for a period of time? Well, that could be attempted.

If what is happening is not what folk want, then let's use our imaginations to try to come up with solutions that are engaging and drive a narrative.

[LurkingShadow]

A few things.

This is an INCREADIBLY complex topic. It's an intersting one to discuss and have at it, but remember there's a lot of moving parts to consider in the whole, up to and including
*Mechancial Consquences for Death - Freedom to play concept vs Ability to enforce Consequences
*How we roleplay typical 'good' and 'evil' (Touching on the ability for uders to take slaves and such -that was possible on the surface to ofor a bit, but was rejected because of how it viciously tarnished the reputations of the areas that allowed it. The problem isn't enforcing more options as DMs as much as it's about players allowing these options to exist. Also braudly speaking Evil characters are less likely to openly roleplay weakness, such as might come from a beating/torture/ect or care about it in others. So when the good guys get beaten you hear about it more... because they CARE about it more)
*How to keep general 'monsterious' rolplay - yet allow some form of interaction that isn't just PvP.
*As others have pointed out (and I agree with) Leveling is fast, there's a lack of 'end game' stuff to keep people entertained, so people go to PvP. Fair enough. What do we do then? Make leveling slower? That will have its own backlash
*Ability for Dms to properly and fairly oversee PvP/Raids/Hostilities.
*Mechanical changes to lessen raids vs rules changes - issues with enforcement there, issues with accusations of favoritism, also issues (especially in terms of mechanics) with how they might limit roleplay. For example if we turned the 'kill scripts' back on - this would stop raids on settlments yes, but would also prevent ANY movement of UDers in settlments. Do we want that?
*'The Underdark' and 'The Surface' are not single harmogenous beings. They're full of seperate factions. What may seem as 'underdarkers raiding every night' may be seven factions each raiding once a week or some such. In an extreme example.

As I said - this is a REALLY complex topic. Please don't get angry at one another because I sincearly believe that it's not one that can be navigated easily.

Thank you for highlighting this topic's complexity and some of the points I had not considered!

Another thing I want to point out that may be obvious to some: There are always multiple sides of a conflict, and we continue to hear "Underdark this, Underdark that" but the surface player base is significantly larger and there are plenty of PvP-inclined players there as well, and they may not be so interested in ending an ongoing conflict.

I am glad to hear that there are some who enjoy this narrative, the ongoing story of the dangers of the night. Personally, I find that a very compelling story in the making.

The "Road" danger to me is just banking on lowbies without the leys. Most lvl 30's have lenses, attunement potions and other wayd of moving around.

Also the end game should not only be PvP.

And the whole "Not harmongenous", the UD does look very harmongenous right now. The taunting posts -inside- Guldorand for example has been pretty much saying how unified Andunor is and how they will whip everyone to pieces and force everyone to leave Myon OR ELSE.

If the mentality is that PvP is end game, then it will not stop. There need to be an element of doing other things than this.

The whole slavery part? I meant it more like imprisoned "labour" more than slavery with a sentence. Even if the surface is more numerous. The Underdark has in lore more dangerous and odd things. I imagine the Underdark is also a place which nurished a PvP mindset with all the conflict down there so by default, the players who go down there an thrive will learn how to PvP. Nothing wrong with that, but numbers means nothing in a system where 2 lvls 30's can be so vastly different in power lvl along with the whole deal of one part of the surface barely sees the other.

[LurkingShadow]

The conflict between the "sunlands" and the "underdark" is a massive topic, and it is quite complex to navigate.

I play Ner'enthis Shadowclaw, so that those reading have some understanding of my perspective on these things - I lead the Shadowclaw tribe, and have been involved in UD politics for a while now.

And whilst Shadowclaw aren't directly involved in the raids (kobolds might go on them, but Shadowclaw as a group isn't leading them), I know a decent amount about the current groups doing them (yes, there are multiple different factions involved doing things separately to one another), and about the what and the why.

PvP for what is functionally bragging rights is one of the end game activities of Arelith, by design, whether intentional or not. We know that Andunor will never conquer Myon or Cordor, and that Myon or Cordor can never conquer Andunor... it's not about that. But in the absence of much else to do, would we rather people leave the server and not play because they have nothing left to challenge them?

Personally, I prefer to do other things than PvP. It's not my cup of tea.

But I also know that because the setting is what it is, that there will never be an end to conflict between the sunlands and the underdark. And because that conflict will always exist, there will always be fighting.

Now, if someone wanted to try to organise a more genteel way to resolve things, say, if a representative of the sunlands wanted to meet with the general of Andunor to discuss a grand games where the greatest warriors from both above and below were to compete, for the ultimate glory of being declared the strongest in the isle along with some prizes, and that this would give both sides a cease to raiding for a period of time? Well, that could be attempted.

If what is happening is not what folk want, then let's use our imaginations to try to come up with solutions that are engaging and drive a narrative.

Braggin rights from winning PvP sounds like a horrible end game.

Andunor and Surface "meeting" sounds like it wont work. Far as I know, you cannot even play a properly good Underdarker anyway. Monster races are monster races, isn't that the old change Arelith did years ago to remove Drow from the surface?

PvP Is not a good narrative. Nor do we need to have a vast narrative. Why does the whole server need to be involved? There is plenty narratives. Andunor got theirs, Surface theirs, every sub faction theirs. It does not need to have a big narrative. I think DMs should decide on those big narratives and not players. Like with the war between the Lords Alliance and Amn. Since the server cannot handle the amount of players invading Guldorand for example, I say it should not be encouraged to be PvP at all in these "raids".

[Rei_Jin]

It doesn't matter whether you think PvP is a horrible part of the end game or not, because PvP is part of Arelith. Love it or hate it, it's here, and we have to accept that and deal with it. As I said, it's not my cup of tea personally, but my feelings will not change the situation, nor will anyone elses.

Regarding a meeting between sides? Andunorians and Surfacers meet all the time for different things; a different alignment doesn't mean you can't be civil with one another. My "monstrous" and evil PC is more civilised and willing to engage graciously than a good chunk of the characters on the surface!

The Underdark is a vast society of races, characters, factions. And at the moment, things are, more or less, civil. I wouldn't say that everyone is pulling in the same direction, as it were, but the majority are content to live their lives and let others do the same without a lot of conflict within the Andunor and its people.

And it's not that the Underdark nourishes a PvP mindset; it's that there is only one settlement in the Underdark, and because of how that settlement is established, it encourages those who play in the Underdark to collaborate and co-exist, rather than separating into a million separate factions across multiple cities. And where you get collaboration, you inevitably get specialisation. Some players/factions specialise in crafting, that's Shadowclaw. And others specialise in PvP, that's those who are raiding right now.

What is happening in regards to the raids, is entirely driven by players choosing to follow a narrative, and working with others to see that narrative flow. If you don't like it? Find a narrative that is just as compelling to them, or moreso, and find a way to make it happen.

Sitting and cursing the dark doesn't make a difference. Lighting a candle does.

[Royal Blood]

I'm not sure the UD breeds a pvp culture. I think proximity to other factions rather forces creative solutions etc and forces players to ensure their character are reading situations and giving each other proper like acknowledgement.

This recent resurgence is newish. Like not too long ago Surfacers were killing Andorians in the streets. Cordor had the best military etc. Chain breakers were literally advertising on the public message boards. Things ebb and flow with the characters. The UD and many if it's characters have worked hard to like contribute to this narrative of unity. In the city.

And I mean super hard. There's been so many cool stories or near civil wars. So like IC this is the result of IC months of RP.

Last thought: the surface war with the DMs was mentioned. I've been in the UD on my character for like almost a year? And played some before that.

I've seen 1 DM plot in like 2-3 yrs take place in the UD. And it was a limited plot. The UD makes jts own intrigue most of the time but for real it feels like the UD gets almost no attention from a narrative focus. I think that is a contributing to raids. There's not other outlets or challenges.

[svet]

Arelith is fun because of its setting and roleplay, not because of repetitive content. Interactions between good, neutral and evil characters and the way they try to accomplish their goals. Interactions between factions with different concepts as well as relations between settlements and their People. The real issue is that we, the players, cannot make anything change due to how the server is intended to be which results in an issue that is never resolved as there is no plans to introduce such changes. Even though I know we cannot influence the world even a little bit, I still get hyped at the thought of what it could be with whatever narrative is going on.

I'd also like to state that I am a fan of spontaneous, non-OOC organized roleplay with consequences. It makes characters more careful, trivial situations become more thrilling. Should possibilities to influence the world further be introduced, I can assure you that PVP will happen much less.

The "Road" danger to me is just banking on lowbies without the leys. Most lvl 30's have lenses, attunement potions and other wayd of moving around.

I don't think you realise that most people are not out for lowbies when it comes to conflict-oriented roleplay unless said lowbies are really looking for it.

Braggin rights from winning PvP sounds like a horrible end game.

PvP bragging rights are hardly the goal of any player wishing for a non-OOC organised plot.

PvP Is not a good narrative. Nor do we need to have a vast narrative. Why does the whole server need to be involved? There is plenty narratives. Andunor got theirs, Surface theirs, every sub faction theirs. It does not need to have a big narrative. I think DMs should decide on those big narratives and not players. Like with the war between the Lords Alliance and Amn. Since the server cannot handle the amount of players invading Guldorand for example, I say it should not be encouraged to be PvP at all of these "raids" at all.

Conflict is a valid narrative given the setting of the server you are playing. Personally, I believe that spontaneous player ran roleplay is the best one can participate in. The issue is when people do not take said roleplay serious and decide to ignore it as they know there are no ways to influence the world. Instead, it remains stagnant.

[LurkingShadow]

I'm not sure the UD breeds a pvp culture. I think proximity to other factions rather forces creative solutions etc and forces players to ensure their character are reading situations and giving each other proper like acknowledgement.

This recent resurgence is newish. Like not too long ago Surfacers were killing Andorians in the streets. Cordor had the best military etc. Things ebb and flow with the characters. The UD and many if it's characters have worked hard to like contribute to this narrative of unity. In the city.

But so is surfacers in Andunor...killed or enslaved, right? Also If Cordor did not kill them it go against the monster races and outcasts. Need to do something. And since you cannot capture people, the solution is often death.

[LurkingShadow]

Arelith is fun because of its setting and roleplay, not because of repetitive content. Interactions between good, neutral and evil characters and the way they try to accomplish their goals. Interactions between factions with different concepts as well as relations between settlements and their People. The real issue is that we, the players, cannot make anything change due to how the server is intended to be which results in an issue that is never resolved as there is no plans to introduce such changes. Even though I know we cannot influence the world even a little bit, I still get hyped at the thought of what it could be with whatever narrative is going on.

I'd also like to state that I am a fan spontaneous, non-OOC organized roleplay with consequences. It makes characters more careful, trivial situations become more thrilling. Should possibilities to influence the world further be introduced, I can assure you that PVP will happen much less.

The "Road" danger to me is just banking on lowbies without the leys. Most lvl 30's have lenses, attunement potions and other wayd of moving around.

I don't think you realise that most people are not out for lowbies when it comes to conflict-oriented roleplay unless said lowbies are really looking for it.

Braggin rights from winning PvP sounds like a horrible end game.

PvP bragging rights are hardly the goal of any player wishing for a non-OOC organised plot.

PvP Is not a good narrative. Nor do we need to have a vast narrative. Why does the whole server need to be involved? There is plenty narratives. Andunor got theirs, Surface theirs, every sub faction theirs. It does not need to have a big narrative. I think DMs should decide on those big narratives and not players. Like with the war between the Lords Alliance and Amn. Since the server cannot handle the amount of players invading Guldorand for example, I say it should not be encouraged to be PvP at all of these "raids" at all.

Conflict is a valid narrative given the setting of the server you are playing. Personally, I believe that spontaneous player ran roleplay is the best one can participate in. The issue is when people do not take said roleplay serious and decide to ignore it as they know there are no ways to influence the world. Instead, it remains stagnant.

PvP is at the core, not roleplaying or very interesting. And if anything, that is very repeating and just raw mechanics. You cannot roleplaying a fight when it comes to the engine starting to dish out the die.

The lowbies I seen on the roads being turned upside down for their pocket money says otherwise.

PvP again, is not a valid conflict in my opinion. If all we get is PvP out of it in the long run? We might aswell play Dota 2 or LoL. Im not on Arelith for the PvP. Nor am I here to be asked "Do you want to be a slave?". I am confident many people will simply say yes because they are good players and just roll with it. But I do not think it is fair for one side to have this powerful tool and no morale qualms to use it.

[Rei_Jin]

You know what?

Yes, the conflict is asymmetrical. The underdark can enslave people who choose to become slaves, and the surface cannot.

But at the same time, underdarkers cannot just wander into surface cities and expect to be safe. Surfacers can walk into Andunor, say they're there for trade, and, by the setting, we underdarkers aren't supposed to harm them unless we have reason to believe they're there to spy or whatever.

The surface is where the DMs tell stories, for the most part.

The underdark is where the monsters live who the surfacers get to treat like NPCs and kill because they're evil. You don't need justification for it, you can just go "It's a kobold, kill it!" and narratively, you are within your rights to do so.

Can any race from the surface become an outcast due to evil and move to Andunor? Yes!

Can any race from the underdark become an outcast due to good and move to the surface? No!

This is just how the setting is, and when you choose to play Arelith, you are choosing to accept these things.

[Bazelgeuse]

"rivvil, it's 8 PM, time for your surface raid" "yes jabbress" gets old after a while.

I've said it before somewhere that I don't remember, but I think the server would greatly benefit from more mechanical "player-versus player conflict" options than Kill, Release, or Enslave If Background Allows For It. Death seems cheap because that's all there really is. It's the baseline, most common, most easily inflicted consequence for conflict.

Come to think of it, taking a slave collar has more impact on a character than dying. That seems a little. Uh. Strange.

[LurkingShadow]

You know what?

Yes, the conflict is asymmetrical. The underdark can enslave people who choose to become slaves, and the surface cannot.

But at the same time, underdarkers cannot just wander into surface cities and expect to be safe. Surfacers can walk into Andunor, say they're there for trade, and, by the setting, we underdarkers aren't supposed to harm them unless we have reason to believe they're there to spy or whatever.

The surface is where the DMs tell stories, for the most part.

The underdark is where the monsters live who the surfacers get to treat like NPCs and kill because they're evil. You don't need justification for it, you can just go "It's a kobold, kill it!" and narratively, you are within your rights to do so.

Can any race from the surface become an outcast due to evil and move to Andunor? Yes!

Can any race from the underdark become an outcast due to good and move to the surface? No!

This is just how the setting is, and when you choose to play Arelith, you are choosing to accept these things.

One can accept, yet be critical of it.

And as a surface player (I do have a UD alt) I can tell you, -no one- encourages anyone to walk into Andunor. So it is not like people just strut inside and get accepted day one, no one on the surface talks about Andunor as a vacation spot. People rather visit the Hells or the plane of shadows before they go to Andunor.

[Rei_Jin]

... you would be surprised how many surfacers we see in Andunor. Making absolute statements how "no-one" encourages anyone to walk into Andunor, are not helpful, nor are they accurate.

Heck, when I have been wandering around on my kobold at different points and come across a surfacer, at least half the time I am asked "how do I get to Andunor?" and I end up giving them directions.

[Richrd]

The "Eternal Battle" does barely any good for Arelith and is just the cause of many OOC grievances, serves to enforce "might makes right" and is also frankly speaking the main point of criticism about the server whenever it is being discussed outside of it's Discord or forum.

Permanent consequences would serve to just make it better.

What permanent consequences should look like, who they'd affect and all that is not up to me. But yeah, just a permanent skirmish (especially one skewed so heavily in favor of one side over the other when it comes to temporary consequences) is just not healthy.