A very lengthy farewell, critique and kudos

OOC General Discussion

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Active DMs

JediMindTrix
Posts: 1190
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2015 6:35 am

Re: A very lengthy farewell, critique and kudos

Post by JediMindTrix » Mon Aug 03, 2015 12:01 pm

Random Idea: Everyone gets 1 "special" character per player on their lifetime on the server, available after playing for six months - year, forced to take a mark of destiny/despair.

User avatar
Arther Goodmane
Posts: 137
Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2014 6:46 am

Re: A very lengthy farewell, critique and kudos

Post by Arther Goodmane » Mon Aug 03, 2015 12:04 pm

Mithreas wrote:The problem is that you (and most of the playerbase) want to play a special character, but you (and I) don't want everyone to play special characters.

So how do you propose we square that circle? It's a genuine question. We in the admin team aren't great fans of the 5% roll system either, we just haven't found a better one.
Oh there's a simple solution to that actually, it's really very easy. Just invent an omni-present, sentient AI with time travel capabilities to monitor and judge RP in a non biased manner, 24/7.

Oh, you mean in the real world? ;)

I think what people may have forgotten is that the races and mechanical benefits currently available...are actually pretty darn special. Maybe people are confusing "special" with "unique" and being unique isn't that special (Hey, I made a pun!).

A necromancer who wants to overcome death, not because he wishes to create a horde of undead, but because he lost a close friend and wants to prevent that from ever happening again, is pretty special. An Elven female wizard who grows bored of lessons and gripped by wanderlust, goes into the world and uses her magical knowledge to further her pirate endevours. Imagination makes your characters special, not numbers or 3D models.
I want my DM name to be
DM CrampyGut

User avatar
Mithreas
Emeritus Admin
Emeritus Admin
Posts: 2555
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2014 3:09 am

Re: A very lengthy farewell, critique and kudos

Post by Mithreas » Mon Aug 03, 2015 12:06 pm

We've considered the "every X months" option.

The problem is the snowball effect... the likelihood is that more and more such characters would accumulate over time, thus creating the menagerie effect.
xkcd.com is best viewed with Netscape Navigator 4.0 or below on a Pentium 3±1 emulated in Javascript on an Apple IIGS at a screen resolution of 1024x1.For security reasons, please leave caps lock on while browsing.

JediMindTrix
Posts: 1190
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2015 6:35 am

Re: A very lengthy farewell, critique and kudos

Post by JediMindTrix » Mon Aug 03, 2015 12:10 pm

Mithreas wrote:We've considered the "every X months" option.

The problem is the snowball effect... the likelihood is that more and more such characters would accumulate over time, thus creating the menagerie effect.
The attrition from Mark of Despair/Destiny probably wouldn't be enough to mitigate that in all honesty.

User avatar
Dunshine
Emeritus Admin
Emeritus Admin
Posts: 1010
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 9:24 am
Location: 51° 38′ NB, 4° 53′ OL

Re: A very lengthy farewell, critique and kudos

Post by Dunshine » Mon Aug 03, 2015 12:48 pm

Just brainstorming some more on possible adjustments to the 5% system in favor of RP.

How about factoring ingame playtime into the 5% roll system? So the actual time a character is/was logged in on the server?
My theoretical assumption is that characters that are speed grinded towards lvl 26 have seen less ingame time, then characters that focus a lot on RP. Ofcourse higher RPR means faster levelling as well, so it's not perfect, but it might be an improvement nevertheless?

You could do it in different ways:
1. A minimum ingame time of X years before a char can get rolled, period.
2. Base the 5% chance on a certain average of X ingame years, and then modify the 5% chance based on the actual years a character was ingame. Lower then the average of X, you get a lower then 5% chance, higher then the X years you get a higher chance. Ofcourse with a maximum.
3. Start out with a 0% chance and increase it slowly over ingame time to 5% chance, again on the decided X ingame years. Say every 4 ingame years you add 1% chance to the roll, and after 20 ingame years it's 5%.

User avatar
Kuma
Arelith Supporter
Arelith Supporter
Posts: 2188
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2014 5:05 pm
Location: Melbourne

Re: A very lengthy farewell, critique and kudos

Post by Kuma » Mon Aug 03, 2015 12:51 pm

Eh, if you're powergrinding to 26 over the course of a month, you'll be dumping a LOT of hours in. I don't think that's an objective or fair means of measuring it. That said, I think Mith may have stats on character play-time, so he might try judging a handful of characters (anonymously, of course)...

House Freth: Reference Information
House Claddath: Reference Information
"What's a heretic?": a guide to religious schism terminology

Irongron wrote:

4. No full screen images of the NWN gnome model (might frighten the children)


User avatar
Yma23
Posts: 768
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 4:41 pm
Location: UK

Re: A very lengthy farewell, critique and kudos

Post by Yma23 » Mon Aug 03, 2015 1:11 pm

I must admit, seeing those stats does cheer me up. It's nice to know that the 5% arn't just going to people who are 0 rpr's mindlessly grinding.

Personaly I'm pretty OK with the current situation. I think it works, and now I've seen the stats I' more or less content it's not just going to mindless grinders. That SAID if I had my druthers - I'd suggest ...

1: Minimum of 20 rpr (or maybe just 10!) for a 5% roll. At tihs you have to be willing to -roleplay-. I dont' think that's much to ask.
2: 20/30 RPR + a Medium Reward + automatic Mark of Despair, to make a planetouched character. Personaly I'd like to see these return, I can see the argument against but there's simply no reason at present to use a major award on a Planetouched when you can use it to make a -full grown planar character.- I think if we want planetouched around again, we need to find a mid point some how.
Last edited by Yma23 on Mon Aug 03, 2015 1:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Dunshine
Emeritus Admin
Emeritus Admin
Posts: 1010
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 9:24 am
Location: 51° 38′ NB, 4° 53′ OL

Re: A very lengthy farewell, critique and kudos

Post by Dunshine » Mon Aug 03, 2015 1:13 pm

Response to Kuma:
You're dumping a lot of hours in a short period of RL time yes, but it would really surprise me if that are more hours then a character where a good portion of the levelling is done by RPR ticks. People don't grind for nothing, they do it to speed up the XP gain, right? If so, then they need shorter ingame time to reach lvl 26, then someone who doesn't or does it less.

DSM-IV
Posts: 252
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2015 1:57 am
Location: Pittsburgh

Re: A very lengthy farewell, critique and kudos

Post by DSM-IV » Mon Aug 03, 2015 3:17 pm

Here is my opinion on this 5% subject. First, I have played/DM'd on many of the other NWN servers, and I have enjoyed the setting/polish/and overall make up of this server far over the others. Just wanted to say that.

I enjoy the fact that most characters are mundane, and we don't have people with tails running around all over the place. (On the surface anyway) A server just gets silly with too much variety in characters.

I keep reading about tying in these special rewards with RPR of +30 or more. I am curious how many players with high RPR would even take the rewards. From my understand, in general players who get a high RPR are those who are constantly RP'ing, developing their character's story and including others in that story. They enjoy the journey of characters growing from low level lackey to crime lord and all the pits falls along the way. How other character's get involved with their story, altering it in ways you could never dream, and making it something truly wonderful you can't get anywhere else. Does that change with higher stats, or a character with fur on it? I don't think so.

But, that is just me. Anyway, the consensus I am seeing is most people want the nice toys to go to the most talented RP'ers. Which is fine, except for those who don't RP well either by inexperience, language barriers or disabilities. Is that fair? I don't know, I am just here to have fun.

Let me end with my suggestion:
1. increase the major reward roll percentage depending on RPR level. For example a 30 RPR has a 25% chance instead of 5, 30% for a 40RPR.

2. Have a set number of each "special" race. For instance, only 3 active dragons on the server at one time or what not. Once that is filled you have to wait for a slot to open. Inactive players loose their slot and have to wait till it opens again.

3. For those who want to play something special, but don't have time to level characters, anyone with a RPR of 20 can have a major reward that is forced to start as a underdarker with Mark of Despair and all those killscripts everyone loves on the surface.

4. Players with active major award races are held to a higher standard. Meaning the DM's are much more likely to come down hard if other players are complaining or they see the race is being abused in some way.

Well, there we go.

DSM-IV
Not a Harper

P Three
Arelith Supporter
Arelith Supporter
Posts: 1293
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 4:18 am
Location: Cortland, NY
Contact:

Re: A very lengthy farewell, critique and kudos

Post by P Three » Mon Aug 03, 2015 3:32 pm

DSM-IV wrote: Have a set number of each "special" race. For instance, only 3 active dragons on the server at one time or what not. Once that is filled you have to wait for a slot to open. Inactive players loose their slot and have to wait till it opens again.


My issue with this is that while some people go through characters faster than a frat house goes through beer, not all do. And this seriously hampers it for others who may never get that chance because of it.
"Fail your Death Attack? Boomstick. Immune to sneak attacks? Boomstick. Gnome? Boomstick." ~ Baron Saturday

nobs3
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 322
Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2014 9:17 pm

Re: A very lengthy farewell, critique and kudos

Post by nobs3 » Mon Aug 03, 2015 3:33 pm

It is an interesting discussion here and I would like to add some points.

I have the vague feeling that we have too much – of a special – specialty atm. What I mean is specialty connected with mechanical power (e.g. from (some) gifts over totem druids to (extreme powerful) artifacts) or with being totally different (e.g. dragons).

What I would suggest are more opportunities to be special in a way that opens rp opportunities for your character without gaining mechanical power vs. enemies or characters OR even which cost you mechanical power. (rp related specialty)

Something similar to sacrificing features to get useful rp tools (like scrying, yoink, send image etc.).

I highly agree to someone above saying that the incentive for a good roleplayer is good rp. You don’t need a special reward for doing good rp. But good rp can be supported…
- It is nice to see that your rp is recognized.
- It is good to have an environment and tools that support rp.
- It is necessary that there are other players that can be cooperated with – that at least accept support (because they are interested in rp).
- You are somewhat protected.

Those aspects of specialty should be supported:

30 Bonus: Shows exceptional aptitude to bring out the good RPer in those around them, is part of the living, breathing world and environment of Arelith.
40 Bonus: "A master role player is one who is willing and able to bend their character concept to make the game more enjoyable for all involved. To assist the DM in making the game fun, and not to show discord."

To conclude: Maybe gifts and such could support less mechanical power and show and more hidden tools and integrative rp. (I know that is not very precise.)

User avatar
Scurvy Cur
Posts: 1310
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2015 3:48 am

Re: A very lengthy farewell, critique and kudos

Post by Scurvy Cur » Mon Aug 03, 2015 3:59 pm

We used to do the second suggestion with RDDs and shifters. It kept the numbers minimal, but also encouraged people to hang onto characters way past the time to retire them, and blocked out people who would have done something fresh and new.

And that was when anyone with a 30 RPR could ask to play one, no 5% needed. I haven't talked to anyone with a 5% character that hasn't said, in so many words, that they will never roll the character, only retire them so they can come back if hey want to.

The only way around this is to impose an involuntary MoD on 5% characters, which I think is a terrible idea. The MoD concept only works because it is voluntary, and establishing any sort of pattern at all that would let a player predict who has a MoD and who does not is a bad thing: this playerbase, or sections of it at least, have a history of looking for excuses to PvP disliked or controversial characters if it becomes public knowledge that they have a MoD. I can recall one incident in which a fairly prominent goblin assassin was given a correctional Mark of Despair (an XP-less version of the MoD reserved as a correctional tool of last resort for characters who might be good contributors if played with fewer bad habits; sort of a "ten strikes and you're out" option for problem characters. No idea if these still see use). Somehow, it got made public knowledge that he had one, and people started targeting the character with the intent of forcing a perma.

Now imagine that it's public knowledge that all 5% characters can be force-perma'd this way. I'd like to believe the player base could be trusted not to do this, but I know better. We may only have a few bad apples, but that's all it takes.

Unfortunately, you can't restrict special race slots without encouraging retirement somehow, though, so the entire notion is, I think, infeasible.


Seven Sons of Sin
Posts: 2184
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 3:40 am

Re: A very lengthy farewell, critique and kudos

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Mon Aug 03, 2015 6:43 pm

Is 5% necessary?

It just sounds like a headache. What if it was eliminated entirely and there was no 5%?

Mithras, I know you've stated before you like having that just little bit of "random and high fantasy" but maybe there are alternative ways to achieve that?

From a pragmatic perspective, does 5% provide any utility?
Previous:
Oskarr of Procampur, Ro Irokon, Nahal Azyen, Nelehein Afsana (of Impiltur), Vencenti Medici, Nizram ali Balazdam, (Roznik) Naethandreil

User avatar
Cortex
Posts: 3553
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:12 pm

Re: A very lengthy farewell, critique and kudos

Post by Cortex » Mon Aug 03, 2015 6:57 pm

Seven Sons of Sin wrote:Is 5% necessary?

It just sounds like a headache. What if it was eliminated entirely and there was no 5%?

Mithras, I know you've stated before you like having that just little bit of "random and high fantasy" but maybe there are alternative ways to achieve that?

From a pragmatic perspective, does 5% provide any utility?
Character retirement. Without it, people would stick to their level 30s for eternity.

Tossing an idea here:

To be eligible for a 5%, the character must have a minimum life time, and minimum online time, example:

Three months minimum since creation, and 10.000 in game hour ticks(idk how much that is).
:)

User avatar
Flameborn
Posts: 694
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2015 8:18 am
Location: All over

Re: A very lengthy farewell, critique and kudos

Post by Flameborn » Mon Aug 03, 2015 8:06 pm

Cortex wrote:
Seven Sons of Sin wrote:Is 5% necessary?

It just sounds like a headache. What if it was eliminated entirely and there was no 5%?

Mithras, I know you've stated before you like having that just little bit of "random and high fantasy" but maybe there are alternative ways to achieve that?

From a pragmatic perspective, does 5% provide any utility?
Character retirement. Without it, people would stick to their level 30s for eternity.

Tossing an idea here:

To be eligible for a 5%, the character must have a minimum life time, and minimum online time, example:

Three months minimum since creation, and 10.000 in game hour ticks(idk how much that is).
There are other servers, none of them have a 5%, or anything like it, and people still retire their characters, usually setting up a big rp farewell for them.
"Never underestimate the enmity of those for which outrage is a sport."

User avatar
Cortex
Posts: 3553
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:12 pm

Re: A very lengthy farewell, critique and kudos

Post by Cortex » Mon Aug 03, 2015 8:11 pm

You weren't around when the 5% wasn't automated to know how stagnant it was getting. And if I'm not mistaken, Arelith is amongst the hardest/longest to level servers, making high level characters "more valuable".
:)

User avatar
Flameborn
Posts: 694
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2015 8:18 am
Location: All over

Re: A very lengthy farewell, critique and kudos

Post by Flameborn » Mon Aug 03, 2015 8:15 pm

You have no idea how long i've been around sweety.
"Never underestimate the enmity of those for which outrage is a sport."

User avatar
Cortex
Posts: 3553
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:12 pm

Re: A very lengthy farewell, critique and kudos

Post by Cortex » Mon Aug 03, 2015 8:19 pm

You would then know that nobody deleted their epic characters pre-5% automation, which was implemented six or so years ago if I'm not mistaken.

...oh the memories, all the epics sitting around Aristotlus doing absolutely nothing.
:)

grip
Arelith Supporter
Arelith Supporter
Posts: 258
Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2015 5:41 pm

Re: A very lengthy farewell, critique and kudos

Post by grip » Mon Aug 03, 2015 10:33 pm

Well I was not around then, but I know that we do need a reason for folks to roll characters. The 5% Roll does do that.
Thake wrote: Wanna rule Aristotlus? Gotta min/max like a pro..

Seven Sons of Sin
Posts: 2184
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 3:40 am

Re: A very lengthy farewell, critique and kudos

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Tue Aug 04, 2015 12:53 am

I think you can do a bunch of different things-

- Rolling above X level means you can start a character at Y level instead of 3.
- Rolling gives you a % chance of being commemorated somewhere IG.
- Rolling still gives you a chance at normal or minor award (I'd tinker this somewhat)

If the only incentive to roll is to give a glimmer of chance for something special, is that the right method? Are we doing it right?
Previous:
Oskarr of Procampur, Ro Irokon, Nahal Azyen, Nelehein Afsana (of Impiltur), Vencenti Medici, Nizram ali Balazdam, (Roznik) Naethandreil

User avatar
Cortex
Posts: 3553
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:12 pm

Re: A very lengthy farewell, critique and kudos

Post by Cortex » Tue Aug 04, 2015 1:13 am

Seven Sons of Sin wrote:- Rolling above X level means you can start a character at Y level instead of 3.
Essentially what negative ECL is.
Seven Sons of Sin wrote: - Rolling gives you a % chance of being commemorated somewhere IG.
Can't this be done without a roll already?
Seven Sons of Sin wrote: - Rolling still gives you a chance at normal or minor award (I'd tinker this somewhat)
Both awards arguebly need tinkering already :P
Seven Sons of Sin wrote:If the only incentive to roll is to give a glimmer of chance for something special, is that the right method? Are we doing it right?
It has to offer enough options for all kinds of players, which might still be upsetting for some.
:)

User avatar
Iceborn
Posts: 2901
Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2015 2:31 am
Location: Dancing on the line between sarcasm and irony

Re: A very lengthy farewell, critique and kudos

Post by Iceborn » Tue Aug 04, 2015 1:57 am

I'd like to point that increasing the chances or modifying how the 5% works won't alter the fact that you still have to sacrifice a character for it, which by itself is a huge low jab to anybody who may wish to take their current character in a different turn.

But I've pointed enough fingers for now, instead of providing any tangible solution.
I think I may have something in mind, but it needs to be polished before I can write it in a human language.
Misc Changes, with the Feats and Skills sublinks.
Available races
Spell Changes
Class Mechanics
Command Guide

Take a look before asking your questions!

User avatar
Cortex
Posts: 3553
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:12 pm

Re: A very lengthy farewell, critique and kudos

Post by Cortex » Tue Aug 04, 2015 2:37 am

Iceborn wrote:I'd like to point that increasing the chances or modifying how the 5% works won't alter the fact that you still have to sacrifice a character for it, which by itself is a huge low jab to anybody who may wish to take their current character in a different turn.
The concept of the 5% roll exists for two purposes, character retirement and replacement of the former special races(planetouched and non-automated 5%). Character retirement being a big one, since it affects the server more than the latter from a macro view.
:)

User avatar
Durvayas
Arelith Supporter
Arelith Supporter
Posts: 2207
Joined: Sun May 31, 2015 6:20 am

Re: A very lengthy farewell, critique and kudos

Post by Durvayas » Tue Aug 04, 2015 3:35 am

Whitewood wrote:Social Clicks, Faction rank, In RP.
thats what i meant.
People are going to claim this is false, and unfortunately, they'll be full of crap.

If you're going to be any kind of archmage, you have to be an epic wizard.
If you're going to be any kind of settlement leader people take seriously, you're going to have to be epic.
Guard captain? Be epic.
Bandit leader? Be epic.
[UD specific]Goblin/orog chieftain? be epic.
(UD specific)Archpriestess? You had damned well best be epic.

If you're going to be any sort of leading character, you need to race to lvl 30 as fast as you can or you're not taken seriously, or someone who is stronger than you is going to either kill your character because of obvious factional conflicts, or (especially true for evil factions) you're going to be killed and/or replaced by someone below you who grinds faster than you. Unfortunately the result of this is...
you need to be epic if you want to go adventure with these people in a meaningful way. Otherwise, you are the escort quest, the one that dies every ten minutes who's raise dead scrolls make the venture unprofitable and slow. More than likely, you'll stay home, because taking an xp hit for every death means simply that You'll need to grind more. This is further reinforced by lowbies getting lower XP if an epic is traveling with them in areas said lowbies can survive on their own. Its understood that this is to keep epics from powerleveling lowbies.(but being honest, if thats the goal, said epic need only shower gold on the lowbie and the gear'll make up the difference). In both cases, they're better mechanically better off without traveling together.

It was frustration at this unspoken server LAW about lowbies being irrelevant that caused FL to be so popular the first couple of months it was out before it morphed into the miserable disappointment it is today. The fact remains that there is no way to actually BE a notable anything in RP without grinding.


But on the topic of the 5% roll... immortal epics are still a problem. Obviously, the dangled carrot of 5% for retiring isn't doing it for people. But neither is the RPR system accounting for the people who don't grind getting them up at a comparable speed to the grinders.

A system which is fair to both parties, independent of level, would be more fair. Honestly, giving people one special character a year with 15-20 lives should do it. Most MoDs I've ever seen only ever lasted a good four months before they died for good unless they were merchants.
Plays: Durvayas(deleted), Marco(deleted), Hounynrae(NPC), Sinithra Auvry'ndal(rolled), Rauvlin Barrith(Active), Madeline Clavelle(Shelved)

User avatar
Iceborn
Posts: 2901
Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2015 2:31 am
Location: Dancing on the line between sarcasm and irony

Re: A very lengthy farewell, critique and kudos

Post by Iceborn » Tue Aug 04, 2015 3:44 am

Cortex wrote:
Iceborn wrote:I'd like to point that increasing the chances or modifying how the 5% works won't alter the fact that you still have to sacrifice a character for it, which by itself is a huge low jab to anybody who may wish to take their current character in a different turn.
The concept of the 5% roll exists for two purposes, character retirement and replacement of the former special races(planetouched and non-automated 5%). Character retirement being a big one, since it affects the server more than the latter from a macro view.
I don't see how that's related.
You may be right, but we have posts of epic proportion explaining the same in the pages behind.
And, to be quite honest, the 5% doesn't exactly make people crazy about retiring characters either. It's just a minor incentive. I don't see anything stopping the epics from piling and hanging around in picnic RP 'as the days of old'.
Misc Changes, with the Feats and Skills sublinks.
Available races
Spell Changes
Class Mechanics
Command Guide

Take a look before asking your questions!

Locked