A very lengthy farewell, critique and kudos

[dirza]

I must fully agree with Mithreas.

Many say that stereo-types characters are boring.

That is either lie, or total lack of knowledge. My character travels in larger group of stereotypical llothites.

But everyone is different. A very different personality. And it is fun. Our characters clash regularly on matters when everyone sees the point in other light. I love occasional argues of Vaavas X Solaurak. Ardulcices remarks on their adress or how she sorts stuff - we got so many so called priestesses and heretical priests, that the one serving Lloth (or heavily pretending it) and well played is much more refresing encounter, than all those heretical priests in past.

I do not understand the desire to play something "else" and "diffrent" most people do have. While the most special characters can be achieved by...just pressing in personality of your character, and actually carrying out your aligment. Having that toon being dragon, or whatever, will not make you less boring itself...if you do not develop the character of the toon.

[Iceborn]

Of the many points to address, I wanted to remark something that I perceived.

I've noticed that it's general belief that a 5% character is automatically bad. That the player behind is just trying to disguise and flavor an otherwise bland concept... at best, and at worse, polishing another powerbuild for whatever dastardly purpose.

Nobody ever said that you needed to be X race that nobody plays to be special.
Or have a build never seen before, or possess a mechanic that immediately makes your character unique. That all, to my eyes, should be always secondary to the RP. It should be only a tool to aid the RP.
True uniqueness will always be in the mind of the character itself, in its history and outlook.

We could ponder the whole day what is special and different, as I think that a 5% does not make any of those - it's just something that is out of the standard reach for players.

Even, playing in the stereotype is fine, specially when you add paragon to that description. A character that represents the pure Elfness can be as amusing as infuriating, or an aspect of their race, or merely more open-minded characters that still sin of their racial condition.

Even (x2), knowing all that, I stand by everything I said about the 5% system, and I find myself in concordance with many statements in the previous pages, such as Sazu's.

[Cortex]

The general belief is that character model/race/trait uniqueness isn't enough to make a good character. Not that because a character is 5% that he is bad.

[Sazu]

To expand on Iceborn's point about what is out of reach for players, also consider who exactly is getting these 5% characters.

Ironically, the people who generate RP the most and RP the most, are NOT the one's getting 5% rolls. It's the players who generate and RP the least, and grind the most, who are getting said characters, because the grinding aspect rewards those who interact the least.

[Twily]

I agree very special is bad if everyone has it. Although I'm also not a massive fan of the current 5% system, but fully support it as no better idea has been put forward.

At the same time: Arelith isn't quite as restricting as some may think or see at first glance. I've seen no issues coming up with your own explanations for things that exist, if it's RPed accordingly.

A dev can obviously say this isn't allowed, but I didn't see or hear of anything saying it wasn't up to this point: I once saw a quite interesting Kensai. They said their speed came from a magical experiment they were put through, where the goal of the experiment was to manipulate the natural connection with the weave into a permanently fueled ward, and that their connection was corrupted in the process. As a result of this corruption, they loose the ability to activate magic themselves, and had negative reactions to powerful wards cast apon them(they refused a majority of wards cast by others, with the exception of illusion spells as they don't "directly" affect the characters body, but instead affect the area around them.) I never saw any DMs or Devs say this was unacceptable, and it arguably is a little special, even if the character was normal aside from that. Sure it doesn't compete with being a dragon though.

TL;DR The point is, You can get quite creative within the mechanics provided, as long as it's played properly, makes sense(lore wise), and isn't ridiculous.

[Mithreas]

To expand on Iceborn's point about what is out of reach for players, also consider who exactly is getting these 5% characters.

Ironically, the people who generate RP the most and RP the most, are NOT the one's getting 5% rolls. It's the players who generate and RP the least, and grind the most, who are getting said characters, because the grinding aspect rewards those who interact the least.

Doing a quick search of dragons, there are 12 dragon PCs in the database. 10 of them are played by 20 RPR players, and 2 by 30 RPR players (so a 5:1 ratio).

That's pretty much exactly the ratio of active 20 RPR characters to active 30 RPR characters in the last month. RPR breakdown comes out as follows, to the nearest percentage.
RPR 0 - 10%
RPR 10 - 33%
RPR 20 - 45%
RPR 30 - 10%
RPR 40 - 3%

If major awards were preferentially going to those who grind the most and interact the least, we'd expect to see significantly more dragons with 0 and 10 RPR - nearly half of characters were played on 0 and 10 RPR accounts. But we see no dragons at those RPR levels.

Instead, we're seeing dragon PCs in exactly the ratio we'd expect if major awards were only given to people with 20+ RPR, precisely the opposite of your assertion.

So this gives zero evidence for your claim that "the people that generate the most RP aren't getting 5% rolls." It's groundless speculation based on what you expect to be true.

[Twily]

Those percentages are nice to see. I didn't realize just how small of a percentage actually has a 30 rpr. I definitely need to step up my game... Thanks for posting them

[UUD-40]

To expand on Iceborn's point about what is out of reach for players, also consider who exactly is getting these 5% characters.

Ironically, the people who generate RP the most and RP the most, are NOT the one's getting 5% rolls. It's the players who generate and RP the least, and grind the most, who are getting said characters, because the grinding aspect rewards those who interact the least.

Doing a quick search of dragons, there are 12 dragon PCs in the database. 10 of them are played by 20 RPR players, and 2 by 30 RPR players (so a 5:1 ratio).

That's pretty much exactly the ratio of active 20 RPR characters to active 30 RPR characters in the last month. RPR breakdown comes out as follows, to the nearest percentage.
RPR 0 - 10%
RPR 10 - 33%
RPR 20 - 45%
RPR 30 - 10%
RPR 40 - 3%

If major awards were preferentially going to those who grind the most and interact the least, we'd expect to see significantly more dragons with 0 and 10 RPR - nearly half of characters were played on 0 and 10 RPR accounts. But we see no dragons at those RPR levels.

Instead, we're seeing dragon PCs in exactly the ratio we'd expect if major awards were only given to people with 20+ RPR, precisely the opposite of your assertion.

So this gives zero evidence for your claim that "the people that generate the most RP aren't getting 5% rolls." It's groundless speculation based on what you expect to be true.

In order to assess the distribution of Major awards, you would have to also include Rakshasa, Tieflings, Aasimar, and other such 5% restricted concepts in your figures, as well as those who have elected to take the -3 ecl.

[msterswrdsmn]

I'd like to point out comparing RPR's to how grindy/non-interactive someone is. Grinding up to higher levels can be done in as little as two weeks. Thats a window thats very easy to overlook, both playerside and with dms. "They're not powerfarming grinders because they have a 20" isn't a very good measuring stick.

[Cortex]

It still takes hardcore dedication and give up on any outside life.

[msterswrdsmn]

Lol. True enough.

Also; grinding to be rewarded by the system isn't just the fabled 5% roll, is it? Grinding halfway up and getting a normal roll will carry me quite a way on a spanking new 3-gift ecl-less character, as well.

[Mithreas]

In order to assess the distribution of Major awards, you would have to also include Rakshasa, Tieflings, Aasimar, and other such 5% restricted concepts in your figures, as well as those who have elected to take the -3 ecl.

Rakshasa: zero. I checked.
Tieflings/Aasimar - nobody has used a major reward to ask me for either of these in years, if ever.
-3 ECL - I'll be utterly shocked if anyone has taken this, but I don't have hard stats.
Other special stuff - since dragons were made available, I think I've approved and implemented two non-dragon 5% concepts.

So it doesn't significantly effect the numbers.

[Mithreas]

I'd like to point out comparing RPR's to how grindy/non-interactive someone is. Grinding up to higher levels can be done in as little as two weeks. Thats a window thats very easy to overlook, both playerside and with dms. "They're not powerfarming grinders because they have a 20" isn't a very good measuring stick.

Grinding up to 26+ the average of 20 times that is required to succeed at a major award, however, takes a lot more than two weeks!

[JediMindTrix]

If Dragon wasn't automated do you think it would be used far less?

[Mithreas]

Hard to say. Probably, though. Why?

[JediMindTrix]

Idle curiosity!

[Rugnar]

Tieflings/Aasimar - nobody has used a major reward to ask me for either of these in years, if ever.

Still waiting for major to play a Tiefer. ;P

[msterswrdsmn]

Grinding up to 26+ the average of 20 times that is required to succeed at a major award, however, takes a lot more than two weeks!

True~ For a major reward. I was refering to the general feeling of "the system rewards grinding, not roleplaying" and "RPR and grind-factor does not go hand in hand". Even normal rewards can give a noticable advantage when making a new character, though not to the extent a major reward does.

Probably should clarify; When I said higher level, I meant the 15+ levels for a minor chance, or the 20+ if you're REALLY grindy can be done in a two-three week period. Is this a majority of the playerbase? No, but again, shooting up levels quickly is very doable for some. Quick enough that its very possible to slip it by the dms, assuming heavy-grinding is a reason to smack someone with a lower rpr to begin with.

[Manabi]

At the end of the day, I think the system is flawed because (insert forum topics here)

At the same time, changing these things, even by a bit, may add a whole new set of problems (possibly) worse than the issues we have. I think it's a system where it all "works" when the entire server is taken into account, and hey, it works very very well. We all want different things - but I think this system appeases everyone to some extent. Some people like PVP, some people like the reward of getting to level 30, some people like cooking, some people like factions, parties, quests, exploring - it goes on and on. The cool thing is - there is something to love about this game for everyone and it doesn't horribly take away from anyone who at least attempts to stay in character.

It's genuinely fun no matter what type of gamer you are as long as you can abide the rules. I'm not saying "don't attempt to improve it." by any means - but you get it.

[Arther Goodmane]

I suspect this thread has reached its conclusion(s), but for the sake of sharing, I'd like to...share some personal experiences.

On two separate occasions I encountered "Special" characters (physical traits) who were...I can't sugar coat this. They were bad at role playing. On the other hand, these were few and very far apart. The potential for the 5% system to be abused exists, but so far, it hasn't turned into an epidemic.

Personally, what I WANT is to see a return to the olden days where only people with a role play bonus of 30 and higher were allowed to have "Special" characters, because IMO they were the only ones who were responsible enough to RP them properly. However, this server has been fixing and reinventing itself for 12 years now, I think? I'm pretty sure the current system is the most practical solution the Devs could come up with.

(By special, I mean physical traits)

Anyway, I think this thread has gone on long enough. If any of you fine people have suggestions that might benefit the server, please refer to the suggestion's box thread. I am sure the Devs and DMs look at that often and won't pull their noses up to something, just because it's different from their solution. Just keep in mind, they see the whole picture, we can't.

[Marsi]

If you attach in-character 'specialness' to the RPR hierarchy you give a way for RPR to literally enter the game space. This was the problem in my mind with the old planetouched system (besides the over-saturation bit): RPR wasn't just a pat on the back, you were invited to be apart of this quasi server gentry that was realized in game.

[Mithreas]

It's a tough one.

You've seen the numbers - only about a seventh of the server population has 30 RPR or higher. Of the remainder, the simple truth is that most will never hit 30+ - either from lack of interest in devoting themselves to learning how to be a better RPer, or just because they never quite 'get it'.

Aspiration is good and all, but is it really a good thing to say to a large proportion of the playerbase that they'll never get to play with the shiny toys? As you say, we used to do that. And there were advantages. But, ultimately, we decided that it wasn't fair - and as you know, we value fairness very highly. It wasn't a simple decision then and still isn't now, but we feel it's the right one.

There's also the issue of RPR being dynamic - there are people who used to have 10s and 20s who now have 30s and 40s, and people who used to have 30s and 40s who now have 20s. When special stuff was RPR-restricted, we had the problem of what to do with special characters whose players no longer met the requirements to play them. Another ugly problem avoided by not having those sorts of restrictions.

[Sazu]

Strangely... I've never left rpr 20 in 5+ years... so not so much dynamic... lol, just kidding.

But honestly, you said the point was NOT to have everyone play special characters, cause then it gets... well, weird.

I suppose I could roll up a new character purely to grind to lvl 30 with the implicit purpose of rolling for special character, cause honestly I want a special character and it'll be years(if ever) getting a special character playing the way I do with characters I actually care about.

Is that wrong of me to want to do that?

[Mithreas]

The problem is that you (and most of the playerbase) want to play a special character, but you (and I) don't want everyone to play special characters.

So how do you propose we square that circle? It's a genuine question. We in the admin team aren't great fans of the 5% roll system either, we just haven't found a better one.

[Whitewood]

I wouldnt really wanna play a 'special' char, im just fine with playing a normal goblin, orog, duergar, or even kobold. .Dont see what the big fuss is about with these special chars besides unfairness, people grinding up to 30, not even bothering with rp or grouping with people, just solo grinding etc.

I was kinda off-handedly thinking about a possible, maybe lame roll system that could lessen the effects of the 5% or those grinding for the sole purpose to have a mega char so they can cause stuff.

Every 2 months, there might be a possible opportunity to roll a 50, 40 or probably 30% to get the ability to play a special char, however. The person rolling must explain what that special char might be, how they might rp them, how they might react to people, etc.
And if the DM or Dev isnt ok with what they hear.


DENIED!