Is there still hope?

[Arther Goodmane]

I was deliberating (think that's the right word anyway) on weather I should post this or not, but it's eating away at me (at least at the time of writing), so I'm going to post it anyway.

[Without giving names]
I have a maxed out player character with a build of 19fighter/7weapon master/4rogue I believe. I don't have all the stats with me, but I believe her average ab is 33? And her Armour count is 35-40'ish. The only time my character was beaten (in a fair fight I must mention. You know how it is) was by another, roughly similar character and only by a relatively small margin. This was about two years ago I think.

Fast forward to the present. I encounter another player character, who I was suppose to have a PvP encounter with, thinking "There is a decent chance I might loose, but I'll put up a good fight though"...The other PC WIPED THE FLOOR with me. It was literally "Me: Dead" "Other PC: Barely injured".

Now, I am not at all against loosing, not by a large measure. I understand some players tend to be better at this sort of thing than I and I have come to terms with it. But to be so depressingly and convincingly outclassed and have no idea why is...not fun!

So my question is, how does one attain such extreme levels of attack bonuses and armor counts and whatnot? I'm pretty sure it's not just PC build, there must be something more to it.

I'd be very appreciative if someone could just tell me how this is done. No detailed build list is really necessary, but it is appreciated. I just want to know how a level 30 weapon master who's never been beaten, get slaughtered so easily?

Maybe I'm doing it wrong

[Cortex]

Having 33 AB and 35(40 with expertise I imagine?) AC at level 30 is preeeeetty abysmal.

The AB is not enough to make up for the lackluster AC, and vice versa. Assuming your character is as old as you claim it is, it should have adamantine gear and ye ole +1/+1 stat +2s skills stuff.

A character of similar build can get near or over 50 AC and 40+ AB very easily.

I'll also add that 2h weapons will be a poor choice of weaponry pretty much all the time bar gimicky builds if you want to be optimized.

And to your actual question: Nowadays, it's far more common knowledge how to build a fairly optimized character that can easily destroy stuff with left click(20/7/3 ftr wm rogue for instance). But your stats are still terrible and I don't know why.

[rat0a]

I know who you are and what PC you use


the problem is your character was outclassed by the gift system.

Oh I remember the when the gifts came live at the server, many people complained about it, this PC will be more powerfull than that one and so on.

Now many if not all players use at least one gift

There are good people out there that know their PvP so you need to take that into quotation.

Not all is lost though your old PC is like a hot rod Car and you can upgrade her but to do so require lot's of gold unless you have that masterly damask with the keen already. There are other things that you can do Like getting rid of that Adamite Armor. I'm not expert but you can hit me in private. I'm doing the same thing with my old Pre Gift era Toon.

But In the end like I said above, there are alot of people that know their PvP out there.

I bet the other toon was extremely warded

[Morderon]

New characters will pretty much always have the advantage as they're better able to take advantage of the new toys that are added

Recently, fighters got a +1 enchantment on weapon, and +1 AC on shield/armor/helmet for every 5 fighter levels.

I did a mock up build with a 25 fighter/5 rogue-like class not to recently that ended up with 34-35 AB (before strength mod) and ended up with 45 AC in bronze (no-propertied) gear; no buffs.

Though even without taking into account the recent fighter additions I find a 33 AB for a primary warrior build pretty low. AC isn't to far off the mark (provided you're closer to the higher amount before expertise

Edit: Note on adamantite gear. You don't need it. Your fighter levels are already enough to grant a +3 AC boost to armor/shield/helmet. Might want to get enchanted gear for those slots instead.

[Arther Goodmane]

I'll do some serious research into my character stats and make them known for you guys. And thanks rat0a, I'll shoot a PM at some point. At the time of writing this though, I am pretty pooped (tired...is what I meant...).

I honestly don't mind that other toons are better at this sort of stuff, i was just shocked at how easily my toon was beaten and considering all the beating I gave over the years, to suddenly find myself positively dwarfed by someone.

But yea, like you guys say, the newer toons seem to have it easier. I'll find a way around this...I hope

And thanks for the responses.

[The Man of the Moon]

Also, regarding the last bonus fighters get...

If your last level given at level 30 was for rogue, then I might suggest to delevel and give it to fighter, so you could then get:

Any blank weapon you used, counting as +4

Any bronze Helmet AC +4
Same for armor, same for helmet.

If the last level you gave as rogue was also to use too many skill points... then delevel two levels, use the 39 as rogue and use there all tumble you need (up to 30 skill points for that +6 AC), also into umd 15 to use wands etc...

Then keep the level 30 as fighter to qualify for fighter level 20 giving the said bonus +4 to weapons and armor gear.

That might be a quite decent improvement.


Then... Look to get an entire gear enchanted with something like...(sample)

+1 STR
+1 CON
+1 Fortitude
+2 heal
+2 discipline

(just a sample... don't invest in tumble as wont give you extra AC coming from items)

About the weapon... as WM you want a bronze weapon enchanted with:

Keen
+1d4 positive
+1d4 negative
+1d4 sonic

or just keep a masterly damask weapon with a +4 essence (sonic, positive or negative the better, as in pve most resistences are not covering those dmg).

On the wands section:

Barskin: from a wand, will give you +4 AC instead from potion (+3 AC)
Improved invisibility: Gives you the 50% hide during the duration of the spell, even after your first attack and the invisibility broke.
Shield: extra +1 AC dodge that stacks with other dodging AC.

On your boots, make sure you got them enchanted also with +1 AC...

Did you took skin armor epic feat? (+2 AC)

Just some things that came to my mind.

[grip]

Edited below*

[rat0a]

Not two days ago I was into the same situation so I feel your pain

I knew about the new Fighters perks from day one but since I don't use my pre gift era PC that much I never thought about upgrading her, I did a rebuild though when it came live so I can take advantage of 20 total fighter levels, but never bothered with her gear.

Anyway I was RP her, she wanted to join some organization and the Boss there wanted a match at the arena, so I went there thinking I was going to do a fencing match with no wards and the other guy without saying a word warded like there as no tomorrow so I lost that one, he actually moped the floor with me, I did hit it a few times though. Poor PC she was hard broken but then I said, " I like a duel rematch no wards" and I beat him with my lousy STR 30+ 10 bonus, adamite gear and greensteel large shield lol.

I guess he was wondering how I beat him, so he send a party request, then he knew "540 CON" with no wards and I can hit close to 600 with warding and some decent inexpensive gear for a level 30.

Now I did some PvP when I got here 4 years ago but he got me because I wasn't ready even though I have the same wands he used on me and those wands aren't even in my hot bar and to be honest I'm not good at PvP either but now I have a hotbar dedicated to my wands, lesson learned AGAIN.

[grip]

Here is a good start to better understand building.
http://nwnecbguild.forumer.com/topic/51 ... XYXHM9VhBc

Seems like you make a whole lot of mistakes with this character. The good news is: Arelith ain't going anywhere for a long time. So if I were in your shoes I would try, try again. Roll that old PC, get a reward of some kind (the negative ELC would be awesome.) and make something new. This affords you the chance to interact with the world in a different way, make new friends, bla, bla, bla.

New characters make the server a better place. Not telling you you are doing it wrong if you keep this character, just saying.

If you want help with a build then shoot me a PM, I like building to concept.

[rat0a]

Grip is right you should do other characters

If you like to keep your old one do so for RPing purposes

But you should try something new and take advantage of the new toys, not only that but you meet more people doing so by adventuring and been poor is fun as well.

I run 2 epics, one level 18 and 1 level 12 and some other short lived ones

I'm having so much fun with the level 12 Paladin, is so different because I only do Fighters and he is my first caster ever here so far it's like playing a new game again

[Irongron]

I'm interested to see this post, as recently I've been concerned with the general 'creep upwards' in character power.

From infinite casters, to fighter adjustments, powerful 5% races, new items, better familiars,and of course gifts. Characters now are FAR more powerful than even a couple of years ago. Go back 8 years or so and the most powerful of PCs would be totally outmatched by one made today.

Why is this a problem for me?

Well basically it comes down to area building. As characters become more powerful so areas become too easy. When once a level 3 PC generally needed a party to head down into the kobold lair now they're good to go straight away, totally ignoring the 'starter' areas that rightly should come before it. Multiply that across all the servers the more powerful characters become, the more everything else needs to be rebalanced.

All the while characters who are old, or lack the RP rating for decent gifts, or haven't taken the 5% roll are hopelessly outmatched, and if all the areas are retooled for the stronger PCS they'll find it hard to travel almost anywhere.

Generally speaking I'm not in favor of 'nerfing', but as characters become ever-more powerful something will eventually have to give.

It's not that I'm against these changes, rather that it creates a headache in area design, especially when it come to infinite casters simply repeating the same simple tactic, again, again....and again to ensure a swift an painless victory.

Still, at least its a role-play server, so not being all-powerful still has a lot to offer. For me as a player, personally, I prefer the game to difficult, and, at times, deadly.

[Cortex]

Infinite casting is not all powerful save for one path, which is, of course, the warlock.

Anything Weave Master, True Flame or Favored Soul can do can be outdone by other classes, they only excel in PvE. Favored Soul is still above the others due to medium BAB and no arcane spell failure, opening more venues.

Warlock is a THE powerhouse right now, though. It takes very smart play or specific build types to take down a good warlock in PvP, and they're quite possibly the best PvE class too. They ARE overpowered and there is no denying that, but to adjust them without making them bad/useless is a little trickier.

Fighter buffs are a long due update, the only significant power spike it gave is to the new vanilla WM build(20/7/3), which is a mega upgrade from older WM variants, specially with artifacts.

Speaking of, artifacts are in a good position now, but could still use a bit of tweaking. The risk and randomness of getting them can be a nuisance but to the right person/group, they're still farmable with the right tactics. If a group manages to get artifacts using the same tactic over and over again with little risk and cost, there is a problem.

The major change caused by gifts is not so much +1 AB or +1 fort as is stat spreading. With them, characters can put in less points into their primary/secondary stat to get other stats that are important for requirements or whatever reason, and then put in a gift in all the stats for a large stat-cost effective boost.

5%s shouldn't really be taken into consideration when it comes down to balancing imo, they're a problem that should be dealt with individually.

And all this time, before the changes and after them, dragonshaper is still the biggest late game powerhouse for PvE/PvP.

Speaking as a balance perfectionist, a good start for PvE would be reviewing the least popular adventuring spots and THEN the most popular, why should I bother going to Morghunn's Hub when it's a lot more dangerous with far less reward than Wharftown Boys or FoD surroundings? Another thing to take into consideration, is that infinite casting classes are subpar in PvP, so they must excel somewhere else, aka PvE(save warlock but I explained that earlier), making it harder for them will not only make niche paths weak at the only thing they do well, but will inevitable make it harder for those that do just okay or even struggle in these areas(like vanilla sorcerer).

Another important note: If there any area design is even close to being a loop and is XP effective, people will go there instead of other places. Some people like it, some don't, wether it's good or bad for RP is debatable, but the fact that if they exist, other places will be forgotten. Making linear dungeons without ease of looping but with rewards as efficient as "looping" elsewhere may promote better rewards than removing the loops.

[Morderon]

I think the biggest issue, and ever will be, in the power of PCs is not so much new vs old but:

There's people who choose to make a good build, knowingly or not. There's people who choose not to make a good build, knowingly or not. There's people who cannot build to save their lives, There's people who know how to use their builds. There's people who don't know how to use their builds.

Then there's the fact that classes are not created equal; which is a good thing but will cause balance issues. Some classes can make good pure characters others cannot. Some classes multiclass better then others. Some multiclasses that sound good in concept don't actually work out well IG.

All this leads to a rather large variance IG, You have this characters with 33 AB and 35 AC. While others of similar builds are capable of 40+ AB and 45+ AC.

While the fighter update might of caused a greater variance; as +3 AC to +6AC for a fighter in a sense means rogues, monks, barbarians, rangers, other melee-type classes have 3-6 less AC. While true flames may be able outperform a whole party offensively, to the point that it changes party dynamic to guard the true flame. They're not the root of the problem; or even a problem even if I think some tweeks may be needed.

[Marsi]

just for comparison, I had a character with almost exactly the same class setup as yours. Their stats with reasonable buffs were 45ab/52 ac. They weren't at all a powerbuild. I actually had no idea what I was doing building them.

[furryn]

I was deliberating (think that's the right word anyway) on weather I should post this or not, but it's eating away at me (at least at the time of writing), so I'm going to post it anyway.

[Without giving names]
I have a maxed out player character with a build of 19fighter/7weapon master/4rogue I believe. I don't have all the stats with me, but I believe her average ab is 33? And her Armour count is 35-40'ish. The only time my character was beaten (in a fair fight I must mention. You know how it is) was by another, roughly similar character and only by a relatively small margin. This was about two years ago I think.

Fast forward to the present. I encounter another player character, who I was suppose to have a PvP encounter with, thinking "There is a decent chance I might loose, but I'll put up a good fight though"...The other PC WIPED THE FLOOR with me. It was literally "Me: Dead" "Other PC: Barely injured".

Now, I am not at all against loosing, not by a large measure. I understand some players tend to be better at this sort of thing than I and I have come to terms with it. But to be so depressingly and convincingly outclassed and have no idea why is...not fun!

So my question is, how does one attain such extreme levels of attack bonuses and armor counts and whatnot? I'm pretty sure it's not just PC build, there must be something more to it.

Maybe I'm doing it wrong

You are doing it "wrong". (if wrong means your AC/AB isn't through the roof)

I made a test build the other day (for kicks and giggles) Who ended up with something along the lines of:

ab 40 +
and an AC of over 60. It's wrecked, i know (it was made in a character creation module, so i had to recalculate some of the stats for the changes on arelith.

To compare, i have an epic level wizard. He has around 130 Hp, and an int (buffed) of about 33
He has no discipline, which means he's a slave to KD.

I love RPing him, however, and i think that's what should matter the most.
I have, however, Never won a PvP match figthing someone of (about) equal level. It's not that i don't know how to play him, I do. He is just so very squishy.

I have another char (whom i also love RPing) but when i build it, i did it from a bit more of an Meta perspective. And i regret that, so very much.

Metaing leaves a bad taste in my mouth. It's not that i don't want a good build, I just like to have a char that makes sense IG, also on the mechanical level. which is why I don't think my wizard will have bard levels for Discipline and Tumble. My Character isn't a bard.

I agree with you DM Irongron. But then, I'm an Role-player, not a roll-player, and that makes all the difference i guess

[High Primate]

Keen
+1d4 positive
+1d4 negative
+1d4 sonic

Have I been horribly misinformed? You can't stack essences on an item; applying a new one replaces the old one.

You want a masterly damask weapon, and possibly a greensteel weapon as a backup depending on your character's crit range (although a Masterly Damask with, say, a 12-20 crit range will deal out much more damage that a Greensteel weapon with a 10-20 range). If you're super lucky you can enchant a keen Masterly Damask weapon in the enchantment basin; I've seen it done.

Taking 20 fighter levels instead of 4 rogue levels would have been ideal, and all of those rogue levels should have been taken in the epic levels so as to not impede your attack bonus. I'm not sure how you ended up with 33 AB. Have you invested in strength? Do you have strength enhancing gear? Do you have Epic Weapon Focus?

I don't see the old vs. new character logic as explaining why your character build is so defective (the build, mind you, not the character)--it would have been considered weak 9 years ago, too. 33 AB as a level 30 warrior is inexplicably low.

[Jagel]

Basin + essences? ^^

[High Primate]

Either way, a masterly damask weapon is going to do way more damage than that. For a standard x2 multiplier, you get an extra +18 damage with every hit. For the thing Man in the Moon is recommending, you'd get somewhere between an extra 6 to 20, averaging much less.

[The Man of the Moon]

You are doing it "wrong". (if wrong means your AC/AB isn't through the roof)

I made a test build the other day (for kicks and giggles) Who ended up with something along the lines of:

ab 40 +
and an AC of over 60. It's wrecked, i know (it was made in a character creation module, so i had to recalculate some of the stats for the changes on arelith.

Honestly... 60 AC in a warrior build X fighter, X wm, X rogue?
I may love to learn how and start one!

Let me atemp a fast calculation:

Base AC:
............................................. +10
Full plate:
............................................. +8
Dex available with full plate:
............................................. +1
Armor fighter bonus (for 20 levels)
............................................. +4
Tower shield
............................................. +3
Shield fighter bonus (20 levels)
............................................. +4
Helmet fighter bonus
............................................. +4
Boots enchanted with +1 AC:
............................................. +1
Armor skin epic feat
............................................. +2
Barskin from wand (assuming umd)
............................................. +4
Shield spell (wand, the accum. dodge)
............................................. +1
Tumble (30 ranks while in rog lvls)
............................................. +6
Expertise / Improved Expertise
............................................. +5/+10
Dodge feat
............................................. +1
____________________________________
TOTAL:
............................................. 49 AC (53 AC on expertise or 58 AC on ie)

Where are coming from the remnant 12 AC????

I am not counting protection vs. evil as many npc foes are just neutral... But even with that, we could still getting just 60 AC (with a penalty to AB of -10 while on imrpoved expertise)

...

Ah yes: HASTE... but this means +4 AC for a short time

But let's calculate:

Up to 64 AC with -10 AB for the limited duration of haste spells (through wands)

Missing 6 AC, please, let me know because I really would love to learn it.

Unless... you were basing this on a pure fighter. Then yes, as he will get a boost of +6 instead +4 from a f 20, wm 7, rog3

But then... you miss 3 AC from tumble (in the asumption you will invest 30 skill points to get 15 tumble) so we return to 57 (with the -10 AB)

Are we talking about a clothes wearer fighter 25/ monk 5? (maybe that combo may get that AC, if he had some good DEX+WIS. But this is absolutely replacing the concept of the figter/weapon master/rogue.

[High Primate]

You can easily make a fighter build on this server who AC surpasses 60 with improved expertise (and more with potions and other wards). There was a thread on this a while ago.:

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1018&hilit=ac+is+my+math+correct

Other builds, like Blackguards, Paladins, and Clerics, can surpass 60 AC.

[The Man of the Moon]

Keen
+1d4 positive
+1d4 negative
+1d4 sonic

Have I been horribly misinformed? You can't stack essences on an item; applying a new one replaces the old one.

.

You didn't read what i wrote maybe...

Enchantment.. You can stack enchanted damage up till you may before the odds shatter your enchanting item.

There are gloves with rainbow dmg for monks that reached up to 5 diferent 1d4 element damages.

[High Primate]

In any case, a masterly damask weapon will put out way more than that.

[The Man of the Moon]

Either way, a masterly damask weapon is going to do way more damage than that. For a standard x2 multiplier, you get an extra +18 damage with every hit. For the thing Man in the Moon is recommending, you'd get somewhere between an extra 6 to 20, averaging much less.

Wrong (with kindness, not to insult nor irony or whatever)

You forgot to consider the keen weapon with +3d4 dmg is going to get ALSO +4 from the level 20 fighter levels.

Min dmg 7
Max dmg 16

and Keen! That makes the huge diference for a weapon master

A lot easiest to enchant a bronze with that, than enchant a masterly damask with keen.

as a wm deals x3 damage on crits, keen is seriously a must.

[The Man of the Moon]

Basin + essences? ^^

If you first enchant and then place an essence...say bye to the enchanted damage as the essence will overide them.

May be needed first apply the essence and then enchant, but this is going to be super expensive as your odds will be terribly low

[High Primate]

Either way, a masterly damask weapon is going to do way more damage than that. For a standard x2 multiplier, you get an extra +18 damage with every hit. For the thing Man in the Moon is recommending, you'd get somewhere between an extra 6 to 20, averaging much less.

Wrong (with kindness, not to insult nor irony or whatever)

You forgot to consider the keen weapon with +3d4 dmg is going to get ALSO +4 from the level 20 fighter levels.

Min dmg 7
Max dmg 16

and Keen! That makes the huge diference for a weapon master

A lot easiest to enchant a bronze with that, than enchant a masterly damask with keen.

as a wm deals x3 damage on crits, keen is seriously a must.

MofTM, a masterly damask weapon will also get +4. If you have a x3 multiplier, say, you get an extra 30 damage per hit (+4 plus 6 slashing/piercing/bludgeoning). Your enchanted weapon will put out an extra 14 and 31 (on a maxed out roll), probably averaging out to an extra 20 or so. If you're fighting undead, a good chunk of that will actually heal your enemy. The keen does not make much of a difference for those who already have high threat rolls.