Why Stealing the Treasury is a Good Thing

[Seven Sons of Sin]

There's been a slew of suggestions since the Cordorian Treasury was dastardly stolen. I cannot help but recognize the fact it's not a bad thing, and people think it's a bad thing.

So it's totally not a bad thing. This is in part a gripe at how now suggestions cannot be debated by players themselves, so here I would say that for everyone who's trying to make mechanical suggestions to fix a totally non-mechanical issue:

Cordor's treasury system works fine. The mechanics are fine. It's all fine.

You know what needs an improvement, instead of the treasury?

How people handle politics.

[What_Evil_Lurks]

Mhm!

[Kashisjonny]

My name is Kash and I approve of treasury stealing.

And bombs.

[IndifferentPerson]

lets keep voting on incompetent shady people is the cordor way of life dont dare tell them otherwise

[DreamOfCream]

Agreed. There is always a lot of intrigue and strife surrounding treasury robberies. To my recollection a lot of things in the city break down when there is no money in the coffers. Exiles are removed, etc. What could be more fun than letting a host of villains back into a decaying city?

The paper trail suggestion might help escalate the conflict. So in principle, I am not against that.

[Yma23]

I think the issue I have with treasury stealing is not that it can be stolen, but that it can all be stolen at once, and that seems relitivly easy for those who have any knowledge of factions at all, and that it can be almost completely untracable, and without consequence.

[What_Evil_Lurks]

As boring as it is to say alot of the issues with robing the treasury come down to the players of those involved. For the perpetrator: is the motivation behind the robbery the coins or is it the RP? For the cops/officials: are you putting a real priority on paying for detective types, info, really looking for the culprits? I don't mean to be a negative Nancy, but there is a whole lot more we, as players, can do to make robing the treasury more fun and engaging.

I wish I could remember Someonehere's signature on the old forums that said something along the lines of: We need to stop asking the devs to create conflict where we are falling short as players.

[Anime Sword Fighter]

The problem with looking for who stole the treasury is that unless someone is meticulously tracking all the writs ever needed by the councillors (which can be a lot, and even then you can lie and say that one is broken in the mixture of all the times they actually break) is that there is literally no way to prove that someone did steal it. You don't have access to their bank account, the time that the treasury was robbed, who signed the writ, or anything else like that.

And sometimes, an official who isn't even a government leader can do it and there is even less of a 'trail' to follow. That official needs the power to do it in the first place, but once they have that there's little stopping them unless it's blatantly obvious it is them.
So it's stupidly easy to rob the treasury and then get away with it.

In summary

I think the issue I have with treasury stealing is not that it can be stolen, but that it can all be stolen at once, and that seems relitivly easy for those who have any knowledge of factions at all, and that it can be almost completely untracable, and without consequence.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

This is not server-side then, it's player-side. We can't implement every teensy mechanic in order to accommodate a certain avenue of roleplay, conflict or pursuit. As What_Evil_Lurks was getting at.

[The Rambling Midget]

No, but we also can't expect the entire playerbase to act with maturity in regards to governmental power. It only takes a small handful of players to abuse a weakness in the system for personal gain, and invalidate the efforts of others. Granted, that's a part of politics, but it doesn't seem to contribute to RP beyond "Oh, look. Someone took the treasury again. Guess we'd better go farm it back up.", and RP is really what we should be after.

Ideally, whatever system we end up with in the future should be focused on RP influence. Gold is a rapid means to mechanical empowerment, through the purchase of premium supplies and equipment, and the ease of theft has made that too great a temptation for those who are simply looking for a quick victory.

It often feels to me that the struggle for power, especially in Cordor, is between those who are only there to wait out their term and steal the treasury, and those who are there to wait out the term as placeholders so that the other guys can't get access to steal the treasury.

Really, what would help is if everyone stopped caring about the treasury. It doesn't often seem to get used for anything.

[P Three]

As the person who has to try to fix stuff, no. The way we have it is NOT good. It doesn't encourage RP, it certainly isn't any fun on my end, and there's no benefit to anyone but the one doing the stealing. I can't track them. I have no way to prove anything, and after about six times, it's eyerollingly jerkish and abuses mechanics to do something without consequence.

Now, if people actually had any RP about it, or there was actually a risk to doing it, and they still got away with it? All fine and good. In this case? Not so much. Dump-n-run in my opinion is no better than a lvl 30 ganking a lvl 3 as they're walking into the speedy office.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

What is the point of the Cordorian treasury, if hundreds of thousands of gold sits around and does... nothing?

The real problem with stealing the Cordorian gold is not the act itself, but how absolutely fundamentally benign it is to the entire system. I don't think there is any real consequence, because of the mechanics surrounding settlements themselves, and the fact the gold is not promised anywhere, to do anything, to make roleplay any better or more fun.

[Anime Sword Fighter]

Well, first, a settlement's treasury being reset to zero triggers elections and generally makes it a pain to get anything else done until those elections are over with.

I've always been under the impression storing a lot of gold is to prevent someone from resource-bombing the treasury (Selling tons and tons of resources so it drains the treasury faster than someone can replace the gold with) and then in case a settlement decides it wants to declare war so they don't get automatically wiped out when a few people die and the treasury starts depleting.

[Hunter548]

I would think the solution to "Oh no, people are stealing the treasury" would be "Don't elect the thief/blackguard/banite/infernalist/fey warlock/whatever".

[P Three]

I would think the solution to "Oh no, people are stealing the treasury" would be "Don't elect the thief/blackguard/banite/infernalist/fey warlock/whatever".

There's at least two cases I can think of in my play time where the council that snagged the treasury weren't evil.

[The Pretty Prince of Parties]

What is the point of the Cordorian treasury, if hundreds of thousands of gold sits around and does... nothing?

The real problem with stealing the Cordorian gold is not the act itself, but how absolutely fundamentally benign it is to the entire system. I don't think there is any real consequence, because of the mechanics surrounding settlements themselves, and the fact the gold is not promised anywhere, to do anything, to make roleplay any better or more fun.

This. I'm amazed at how much fuss is given IG/OOC over the gold being stolen, when there's such a deep-rooted hatred of spending any of it at all. I got a lot of harassment, IC and OOC, over going out of my way to put Cordor's treasury to use when I was a Councilor - hiring people to make goods for the Guard, on purely-RP projects, etc.

[Anime Sword Fighter]

those people were just dumb. we needed the gnome lamps.

I need them.

[WhatDreamsMayCome]

I agree that the ability to steal from the treasury provides the basis for good/fun things. I also agree with Seven that the underlying problem is not a mechanical one. That being said, I've always felt that treasury theft and settlement resource shenanigans should be treated the same as pvp. There should be rp before hand and, if you want to make it a meaningful/fun event for the victims, rp after.

On the other hand, I've found that players are so incredibly jaded by treasury thefts that they do not even register them on an IG level or really react to it. It takes two parties to make the thing fun.

[RED GANOT]

STEP 1: Stop being scared of conflict.

STEP 2: Point fingers at the most likely target. It does not matter if it was actually them. No, seriously. It does not matter. You can make mistakes. You can target the wrong person. You do not need every shred of evidence from Arelith to Kara Tur. Also, because, as pointed out several times above: THERE IS NO WAY TO GET THAT EVIDENCE. So, adapt your RP to that fact.
So long as the RP around it is good, it is kosher. Go hunt them down with pitchforks, as would be ordinary in the FR setting.

STEP 3: Do this.

STEP 4: Congratulations, you actually did something! People are angry! Other people are satisfied! There is ongoing conflict!

Disclaimer: Tone not cynical or sarcastic. Very encourage.

[IndifferentPerson]

I was roleplaying with some drow the other day, and evidence gathering and surface trials came to mind, of how ineffective it is due to the frequent lack of evidence, one of the drow said: "We fixed that problem by removing the need of evidence."

Do as GANOT says.

[Peppermint]

Unless things have substantially changed in the past few months, there generally aren't many more councilor candidates than there are actual councilors per term. Which makes it really, really, really difficult to handpick responsible politicians -- since, y'know, there isn't really a choice anyway.

I'd argue that this points to a problem in the module, but I suppose YMMV*.

Which leaves the option of fingerpointing after the treasury is stolen. Which is fine, I guess. There's plenty of RP to be had here. The problem is that in Cordor (and again, it's possible this has changed in the past few months), this happens basically every three terms at least. It gets really old, really quickly.

Personally, I prefer to slate my RP toward the novel. I love it when people stir conflict by challenging meaningful obstacles and approaching things in new, controversial ways. Monotony bores me to tears.

But again, YMMV, I guess.

(* Your mileage may vary.)

[IndifferentPerson]

Remind me what YMMV is.

[What_Evil_Lurks]

your mileage may vary.

[P Three]

Unless things have substantially changed in the past few months, there generally aren't many more councilor candidates than there are actual councilors per term. Which makes it really, really, really difficult to handpick responsible politicians -- since, y'know, there isn't really a choice anyway.

I'd argue that this points to a problem in the module, but I suppose YMMV*.

Which leaves the option of fingerpointing after the treasury is stolen. Which is fine, I guess. There's plenty of RP to be had here. The problem is that in Cordor (and again, it's possible this has changed in the past few months), this happens basically every three terms at least. It gets really old, really quickly.

Personally, I prefer to slate my RP toward the novel. I love it when people stir conflict by challenging meaningful obstacles and approaching things in new, controversial ways. Monotony bores me to tears.

But again, YMMV, I guess.

(* Your mileage may vary.)

I'm just gonna put this here again, because it's all right. All of it.

[Stath]

Because whoever stole it can buy boats and courtesans, with tables on the boats with guaji root on them. 22 inch spokes on their wagon, gold plated saddle stirrups. Opulence.